Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » revisit steering gearbox
| revisit steering gearbox [message #179989] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 18:38  |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
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Just to confirm my feelings is it a good ideal, if I was to replace my 38 year old gearbox, to do the procedure and find the dead center ahead tight spot and put on temp index plate like I believe Ken Henderson describes even though the box should be jam up being new or rebuilt. Just wearing belts and suspenders again. I don't mind any repair but I hate doing it twice if just a little more effort will head off any peculiarities or issues.
Skip Hartline
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180008 is a reply to message #179989] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 20:17  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Skip,
I didn't describe any index plate. Perhaps you're thinking of Albert
Branscombe's procedure of clamping a straight edge on the input shaft flat
to make it easier to align with the machined end of the housing?
Personally, I wouldn't consider installing a part like the steering box
without checking it for myself. Workmanship these days is just too spotty.
Also, remember that replacing the box, even with a good one, is no
guarantee that the annoying symptom will go away; you want to have as much
confidence as possible in what you've already done. Of course, I already
have the in-lb torque wrench so I don't have to contend with additional
ordering & expense. :-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Skip Hartline wrote:
>
>
> Just to confirm my feelings is it a good ideal, if I was to replace my 38
> year old gearbox, to do the procedure and find the dead center ahead tight
> spot and put on temp index plate like I believe Ken Henderson describes
> even though the box should be jam up being new or rebuilt. Just wearing
> belts and suspenders again. I don't mind any repair but I hate doing it
> twice if just a little more effort will head off any peculiarities or
> issues.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180024 is a reply to message #180008] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 23:15 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
IIRC Dave Lenzi and (I can't remember who) is working on getting new steering boxes made. It has been my experience that anything
Dave is involved with will leave anyone else's stuff for DEAD!
This company has the 0 - 60 in lb torque wrench for $39.95.
http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-TW-1-Torque-Wrench/dp/B000NVCI1U/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_0/176-7055158-6069842
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Skip,
I didn't describe any index plate. Perhaps you're thinking of Albert
Branscombe's procedure of clamping a straight edge on the input shaft flat
to make it easier to align with the machined end of the housing?
Personally, I wouldn't consider installing a part like the steering box
without checking it for myself. Workmanship these days is just too spotty.
Also, remember that replacing the box, even with a good one, is no
guarantee that the annoying symptom will go away; you want to have as much
confidence as possible in what you've already done. Of course, I already
have the in-lb torque wrench so I don't have to contend with additional
ordering & expense. :-)
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180038 is a reply to message #180024] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 06:52 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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Let me add one bit to yours good advice, Dave is a really smart machine guy when it comes to parts that need such consideration and I certainly say good advice but lket me also say we are participants in this imperfect world and old parts do fail even if they were reconstituted. I perfect example, for a long while everyone here recommended another company (un-named) to rebuild steering boxes. They had special things they did inside their builds that made them super. That was great and I sent them several boxes to build. The problem cam when there was aproblem with a rebuilt box they did-- shipping took any profit to the trash can for them and for me and if something broke the 2nd time I was so upside down-- well, they were nice people but I could no longer do business with them, the cost of solving pesky little problems overcame any profit I would ever make.
If you want to just mess with things until something good outcomes no problem but be prepared to have to revisit an issue and it's no ones fault "--it happens" as Forest would say. There is no magic bullet on working with old mechanisms, the only thing you can do is be persistent so it's less who builds it and more about what happens when something happens. Time is money--- money is money and shipping eats it all! It's not anyones fault sometimes when something happens-- this is not McDonalds and there are no guarantees...
Jim Bounds
-------------------------
________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox
Ken,
IIRC Dave Lenzi and (I can't remember who) is working on getting new steering boxes made. It has been my experience that anything
Dave is involved with will leave anyone else's stuff for DEAD!
This company has the 0 - 60 in lb torque wrench for $39.95.
http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-TW-1-Torque-Wrench/dp/B000NVCI1U/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_0/176-7055158-6069842
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Skip,
I didn't describe any index plate. Perhaps you're thinking of Albert
Branscombe's procedure of clamping a straight edge on the input shaft flat
to make it easier to align with the machined end of the housing?
Personally, I wouldn't consider installing a part like the steering box
without checking it for myself. Workmanship these days is just too spotty.
Also, remember that replacing the box, even with a good one, is no
guarantee that the annoying symptom will go away; you want to have as much
confidence as possible in what you've already done. Of course, I already
have the in-lb torque wrench so I don't have to contend with additional
ordering & expense. :-)
Ken H.
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180043 is a reply to message #180038] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 07:26 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Jim,
Your message, to me, supports my contention that folks ought to TRY to
adjust and/or do minor repairs to their existing steering boxes (among
other parts) before springing for replacements -- which MAY turn out to be
no better, and perhaps worse than what they have, or can achieve. For you,
replacement of out-of-the-box or infant failures are a deductible business
expense; for an end user, they're pure, non-deductible expense.
JMHO, & why I do so much tinkering: "If it worked once, it can be made to
work again -- maybe."
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Let me add one bit to yours good advice, Dave is a really smart machine
> guy when it comes to parts that need such consideration and I certainly say
> good advice but lket me also say we are participants in this imperfect
> world and old parts do fail even if they were reconstituted. I perfect
> example, for a long while everyone here recommended another company
> (un-named) to rebuild steering boxes. They had special things they did
> inside their builds that made them super. That was great and I sent them
> several boxes to build. The problem cam when there was aproblem with a
> rebuilt box they did-- shipping took any profit to the trash can for them
> and for me and if something broke the 2nd time I was so upside down-- well,
> they were nice people but I could no longer do business with them, the cost
> of solving pesky little problems overcame any profit I would ever make.
>
> If you want to just mess with things until something good outcomes no
> problem but be prepared to have to revisit an issue and it's no ones fault
> "--it happens" as Forest would say. There is no magic bullet on working
> with old mechanisms, the only thing you can do is be persistent so it's
> less who builds it and more about what happens when something happens.
> Time is money--- money is money and shipping eats it all! It's not anyones
> fault sometimes when something happens-- this is not McDonalds and there
> are no guarantees...
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180051 is a reply to message #180008] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 08:46 |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
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Sorry, Ken, I thought those were your photos. Sometimes I loose track when the post and replies get intertwined. Thanks for all your and everyones help and suggestions on this and other questions of mine.
Skip Hartline
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180056 is a reply to message #180052] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 09:16 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Oh, I definitely understand Jim's position -- failures are a
no-win/loss-producer for everyone involved. The ten years I owned a
computer store certainly drove that point home. The point I was trying to
emphasize is that since there is a chance of failure even when installing a
new/rebuilt part, why skip the DIY repair step preceding that purchase?
Certainly the DIY repair may not be effective -- but then the new/rebuilt
may not either.
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
> As someone who repairs equipment I understand JimB's position.
>
> If I accept something to repair, I have once chance to find every little
> problem and get it right otherwise I'm married to that equipment until the
> customer is satisfied. Unlike Doctors, Lawyers etc I can't continue billing
> until the problem is solved.
>
> So accepting anything to fix is a matter of risk management and some
> people think I'm a jerk for not taking on the repair.
>
> Trying to rebuild something that parts are no longer available is tough.
> And trying to do the impossible "as a favour" usually comes back to bite
> you hard in the wallet.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: revisit steering gearbox [message #180057 is a reply to message #179989] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 09:45 |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
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Just went to my local NAPA and they said it, 27-7519, would have to be factory ordered and be an extra 50 for freight. Are there servicable "wear" parts inside, that if I have it off, that can be ordered by me and replaced. I know I can go online and order a CARDONE brand but sometimes when the parts house is 3000 miles away it's scarry on this type of item. Any other suugestions of other brands of rebuilts.
Skip
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180064 is a reply to message #180057] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 10:19 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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If there is a company called Red Head steering nearby you we use them frequently for boxes and have never had a problem. We are in Seattle and I don't know if they are more than a local co.
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 13, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Skip Hartline <skiphartline@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just went to my local NAPA and they said it, 27-7519, would have to be factory ordered and be an extra 50 for freight. Are there servicable "wear" parts inside, that if I have it off, that can be ordered by me and replaced. I know I can go online and order a CARDONE brand but sometimes when the parts house is 3000 miles away it's scarry on this type of item. Any other suugestions of other brands of rebuilts.
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: revisit steering gearbox [message #180065 is a reply to message #180057] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 10:28 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Skip,
You might try looking for a local steering box re-builder in your area. There are two just here in Tucson. One has gotten lazy and does not do a very thorough job any more, but the other has an excellent reputation among the local garages.
Ask around and you might find someone in your area that is capable of handling the job. It sure could save you a bundle on shipping.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180069 is a reply to message #180065] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 10:38 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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I second Carl's advice. If a shop is good at building boxes then they will do fine with the gmc box
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 13, 2012, at 8:28 AM, Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Skip,
>
> You might try looking for a local steering box re-builder in your area. There are two just here in Tucson. One has gotten lazy and does not do a very thorough job any more, but the other has an excellent reputation among the local garages.
>
> Ask around and you might find someone in your area that is capable of handling the job. It sure could save you a bundle on shipping.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180081 is a reply to message #180052] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 11:36 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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See it all comes down to how you look at things. If your GMC represents the major frustration in your life that you feel an irresistable urge to spend time with it then by all means and that is a desirable passtime, I'm not saying it's a bad thing-- in fact I wish I could do that and to be honest I want to do that! Unfortunately, I have to look at it as not a loss. At $80 per hour, which BTW is not in line with service centers in my area, if I fiddle with it for 2 hours-- that's $160, would you pay me that much to screw around with a steering box? Or would you understand the time if I put a rebuilt one on? Remember now, this has nothing to do with you having your coffee in the morning and then putter on the steering box all day.
Jim Bounds
-----------------------
________________________________
From: Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox
Ken,
As someone who repairs equipment I understand JimB's position.
If I accept something to repair, I have once chance to find every little problem and get it right otherwise I'm married to that equipment until the customer is satisfied. Unlike Doctors, Lawyers etc I can't continue billing until the problem is solved.
So accepting anything to fix is a matter of risk management and some people think I'm a jerk for not taking on the repair.
Trying to rebuild something that parts are no longer available is tough. And trying to do the impossible "as a favour" usually comes back to bite you hard in the wallet.
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180084 is a reply to message #180069] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 11:42 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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Yes, a local rebuilder is good. That way transportation costs if there is an issue are low. It's all about that, I do not ship steering boxes as a rule-- too much liability if Murphy shows his ugly head. I tell folks to go to NAPA and ask for a 27-7519. Put it in right away and try it, if it's all OK great, if there is a problem you have reasonable recourse.
Jim Bounds
---------------------
________________________________
From: Todd Sullivan <sgltrac@gmail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox
I second Carl's advice. If a shop is good at building boxes then they will do fine with the gmc box
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 13, 2012, at 8:28 AM, Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Skip,
>
> You might try looking for a local steering box re-builder in your area. There are two just here in Tucson. One has gotten lazy and does not do a very thorough job any more, but the other has an excellent reputation among the local garages.
>
> Ask around and you might find someone in your area that is capable of handling the job. It sure could save you a bundle on shipping.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180087 is a reply to message #180052] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 11:48 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I've two ways of doing stuff like this. For friends, 'I'll try as a favior, no guarantees" and do whatever I end up doing as a learning experience and a pay forward. For The Teeming Millions, "I'll try, but given that the equipment is obsolete, I may not be able to get parts and information to fix it. I'll only do this on a day rate, no guarantees." b So far, I've been lucky.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 paqlm beach
From: Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox
Ken,
As someone who repairs equipment I understand JimB's position.
If I accept something to repair, I have once chance to find every little problem and get it right otherwise I'm married to that equipment until the customer is satisfied. Unlike Doctors, Lawyers etc I can't continue billing until the problem is solved.
So accepting anything to fix is a matter of risk management and some people think I'm a jerk for not taking on the repair.
Trying to rebuild something that parts are no longer available is tough. And trying to do the impossible "as a favour" usually comes back to bite you hard in the wallet.
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180093 is a reply to message #180089] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 12:08 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Exactly, that is the difference-- he loves this stuff. No one can afford to do things he does but even at that, things still do go wrong and if that happens please be kind to Dave. He cannot afford to ship another box if there is a problem, if you made the decision to do to him help him out and partner with him on any problems he may have. He may say it's OK, but really it's not and he will loose big time. If you buy a box from Dave and there is a problem, pay the shipping for him-- afterall if you make this unfun for him he may stop and none of us would like that. I'm not setting the stage for failure, just explaining it does happen,
Jim Bounds
-----------------------
________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox
Bob,
Well as far as I'm concerned if Dave is rebuilding them he WILL find ways to build units that meet Saginaw's new box specs. In fact
I'll bet he comes up with ways to EXCEED those specs!
One only has to look at the rebuilt parts he supplies now for proof of that fact. Let's take hubs and knuckles as an example. From
the factory they were turned on a lathe with a pointed tool. This left "threads" in the bore of the knuckle. Dave grinds them to a
precise dimension and then has them flame sprayed and then grinds them to the exact tolerance necessary to establish the correct
bearing clearance. The same methodology is applied to the hubs.
His workmanship and quality reminds me of Project Apollo. I am confident that there isn't ANY rebuilder out that could or would do a
better job than Dave.
A further example of his workmanship is his Royale and the installation of the 8.1 Vortec.
Dave does this "stuff" because he loves to, not because he needs to make a living from it.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Drewes
Rob;
Dave L is rebuilding steering gearboxes, I don't think there was ever any thought on getting NEW boxes made. Most or all of the
parts to rebuild are still available, the rebuild just needs to be done correctly. Dave's rebuilt box comes with a fixture that
mounts on the oil ports that will keep the box on high point during installation. This fixture is a returnable item. Get to the Fall
GMCMI convention at the Amana Colony in Iowa and more info will be there on this subject.
Bob
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| Re: [GMCnet] revisit steering gearbox [message #180210 is a reply to message #180093] |
Tue, 14 August 2012 11:14 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Jim,
I'm sorry but I disagree with what you note below. As I've mentioned to you before I look at the situation like this; I have two
relationships with Dave Lenzi, JimK, yourself, and any other GMCer that makes and sells bits and pieces for the GMC.
I consider us all a community of friends BUT when I buy something from ANYONE it becomes a business relationship. I expect to pay a
fair price for a product that performs as it should 100%.
If it does not then I would expect whomever I bought the item from to make it right at NO additional cost to me.
That's the way I conducted business when I was in Hong Kong building hot rod / custom Harleys for my friends there.
There is another side to this coin; I would never ask anyone that makes parts for a GMC for a discount or something for nothing
because of a friendship.
Quite frankly when I want to buy anything whether it be for the GMC, my Harley, Ducati, or whatever I go on line and Google whatever
it is. I'll shop around and see what the best price is and go from there.
When I find the cheapest price from a company I would consider an acceptable source I check what, you, JimK; or GMCer sells the part
for and if the total price (item plus shipping) is not more than 30% greater than the cheapest price I'll buy it from you guys. I'd
say that's a pretty fair way of "supporting the vendors."
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bounds
Exactly, that is the difference-- he loves this stuff. No one can afford to do things he does but even at that, things still do go
wrong and if that happens please be kind to Dave. He cannot afford to ship another box if there is a problem, if you made the
decision to do to him help him out and partner with him on any problems he may have. He may say it's OK, but really it's not and he
will loose big time. If you buy a box from Dave and there is a problem, pay the shipping for him-- afterall if you make this unfun
for him he may stop and none of us would like that. I'm not setting the stage for failure, just explaining it does happen,
Jim Bounds
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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