Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » 455 engine rebuild headaches
| 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #179951] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 11:35  |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Well the people I had hoped to use for my engine rebuild are STILL not back in operation after their shop fire last fall. (Shop appears to be completed but equipment, which was undamaged in the fire, has not been moved back in yet.
So who does a good job redoing GMC engines besides Dick Paterson, who is out of my budget range. JimK does not have one on the shelf and is checking with his engine guy. I have not contacted JimB yet. I have someone else local that is highly recommended but I have not checked them out yet. Who else is out there, preferably within striking distance of SE Wisconsin?
Unless a miracle happens Amana is a no go. (Yes I know I could go without the coach, but the CFO would not be able to accompany me and I would not be able to have a good time knowing she was stuck at home. It will be more satisfying for me to be working on the GMC than being at Amana without the "family". Right now I don't need to be getting GMC info. I need to be getting things done on the GMC. Grrrrrr.)
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #179960 is a reply to message #179951] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 13:31  |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Rebuilding an Olds engine is very different than anything else.
the guy that helped me rebuilds everything from Flat heads to mopars but hadn't done an olds.
Luckily he is in tight with one of the best machine shops in the state who did know how to machine and olds, so we did it right.
But there were some things that made him shake his head.
Without him, I would definitely get a Jim B or K engine and just accept it.
Hopefully I'll never have to do it again tho
| midlf wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 11:35 |
Well the people I had hoped to use for my engine rebuild are STILL not back in operation after their shop fire last fall. (Shop appears to be completed but equipment, which was undamaged in the fire, has not been moved back in yet.
So who does a good job redoing GMC engines besides Dick Paterson, who is out of my budget range. JimK does not have one on the shelf and is checking with his engine guy. I have not contacted JimB yet. I have someone else local that is highly recommended but I have not checked them out yet. Who else is out there, preferably within striking distance of SE Wisconsin?
Unless a miracle happens Amana is a no go. (Yes I know I could go without the coach, but the CFO would not be able to accompany me and I would not be able to have a good time knowing she was stuck at home. It will be more satisfying for me to be working on the GMC than being at Amana without the "family". Right now I don't need to be getting GMC info. I need to be getting things done on the GMC. Grrrrrr.)
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #179961 is a reply to message #179951] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 13:36 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Denny Allen used someone in Spokane, wash
gene
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>wrote:
>
>
> Well the people I had hoped to use for my engine rebuild are STILL not
> back in operation after their shop fire last fall. (Shop appears to be
> completed but equipment, which was undamaged in the fire, has not been
> moved back in yet.
>
> So who does a good job redoing GMC engines besides Dick Paterson, who is
> out of my budget range. JimK does not have one on the shelf and is
> checking with his engine guy. I have not contacted JimB yet. I have
> someone else local that is highly recommended but I have not checked them
> out yet. Who else is out there, preferably within striking distance of SE
> Wisconsin?
>
> Unless a miracle happens Amana is a no go. (Yes I know I could go without
> the coach, but the CFO would not be able to accompany me and I would not be
> able to have a good time knowing she was stuck at home. It will be more
> satisfying for me to be working on the GMC than being at Amana without the
> "family". Right now I don't need to be getting GMC info. I need to be
> getting things done on the GMC. Grrrrrr.)
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
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Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #179965 is a reply to message #179951] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 14:39 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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If you want to travel 130 miles then go to Van Senus Auto in Hammond, IN. They have been in business for at least 60 years that I know of.
Ask for Bill who runs the machine shop. The biggest problem is they are not quick. A local GMcer just picked up a 455 from them last Wednesday and they are installing it this week end. It took 2 months to get theirs on the schedule and rebuilt.
1-219-844-2900
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #179966 is a reply to message #179951] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 14:52 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Get a Koba engine from Jim B. Koba is nearly a god among the Olds folks.
He is one of the co authors of the Mondello bible.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>wrote:
>
>
> Well the people I had hoped to use for my engine rebuild are STILL not
> back in operation after their shop fire last fall. (Shop appears to be
> completed but equipment, which was undamaged in the fire, has not been
> moved back in yet.
>
> So who does a good job redoing GMC engines besides Dick Paterson, who is
> out of my budget range. JimK does not have one on the shelf and is
> checking with his engine guy. I have not contacted JimB yet. I have
> someone else local that is highly recommended but I have not checked them
> out yet. Who else is out there, preferably within striking distance of SE
> Wisconsin?
>
> Unless a miracle happens Amana is a no go. (Yes I know I could go without
> the coach, but the CFO would not be able to accompany me and I would not be
> able to have a good time knowing she was stuck at home. It will be more
> satisfying for me to be working on the GMC than being at Amana without the
> "family". Right now I don't need to be getting GMC info. I need to be
> getting things done on the GMC. Grrrrrr.)
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180004 is a reply to message #179978] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 19:59 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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What does that link have to do with anything I said?
It's all very general stuff...building an engine requires a little more detail...
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180014 is a reply to message #180012] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 21:48 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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It's basically how I rebuilt the Cad 500 I'm running now.
When I originally installed a Cad500, over a year ago, I did a complete
rebuild: New pistons, rings, valves, springs, lifters,camshaft, bearings,
etc. The crank was perfect at spec., as were the cylinder bores, which
were merely honed. That's the engine in which the thrust bearing clearance
increased to 0.125" within 11,000 miles. While the cause of that failure
has not been determined, it was PROBABLY due to the torque converter.
After that failure, I flushed the engine as well as possible, had the
crank rebuilt to 0.010" under size, and installed new bearings. Not
suspecting the torque converter at that time, I re-installed it with the
rebuild engine. 250 miles later the thrust clearance was 0.060", up from
0.004".
To ensure that I'd eliminated all possible sources of the thrust bearing
failures, I "refreshed" a different engine: New valve springs, piston
rings in lightly honed cylinders, new springs on lightly touched up valves,
and new bearings on the original cam and perfect original crank. While I
have only about 300 miles on the engine now, it runs even better than the
first engine and is not showing any sign of thrust wear (WHEEW!!!). It's
not a perfect engine: There was a barely perceptible amount of wear on cam
lobes, and the pistons were not quite as tight as I'd have fitted new ones.
But the valve train is quieter and the idle smoother. Thus far, I
certainly do not regret scrimping on parts cost.
I'll be "refreshing" the previously rebuilt engine with disassembly,
flushing, new rings, and new bearings, but I really don't think that will
be a better engine than #2.
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:28 PM, 1104agm wrote:
> The article is a good options to build a motor.
>
>
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180017 is a reply to message #180014] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 22:04 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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If it makes sense, we have an engine in stock.
Should be able to ship any place for $350.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> It's basically how I rebuilt the Cad 500 I'm running now.
>
> When I originally installed a Cad500, over a year ago, I did a complete
> rebuild: New pistons, rings, valves, springs, lifters,camshaft, bearings,
> etc. The crank was perfect at spec., as were the cylinder bores, which
> were merely honed. That's the engine in which the thrust bearing clearance
> increased to 0.125" within 11,000 miles. While the cause of that failure
> has not been determined, it was PROBABLY due to the torque converter.
> After that failure, I flushed the engine as well as possible, had the
> crank rebuilt to 0.010" under size, and installed new bearings. Not
> suspecting the torque converter at that time, I re-installed it with the
> rebuild engine. 250 miles later the thrust clearance was 0.060", up from
> 0.004".
>
> To ensure that I'd eliminated all possible sources of the thrust bearing
> failures, I "refreshed" a different engine: New valve springs, piston
> rings in lightly honed cylinders, new springs on lightly touched up valves,
> and new bearings on the original cam and perfect original crank. While I
> have only about 300 miles on the engine now, it runs even better than the
> first engine and is not showing any sign of thrust wear (WHEEW!!!). It's
> not a perfect engine: There was a barely perceptible amount of wear on cam
> lobes, and the pistons were not quite as tight as I'd have fitted new ones.
> But the valve train is quieter and the idle smoother. Thus far, I
> certainly do not regret scrimping on parts cost.
>
> I'll be "refreshing" the previously rebuilt engine with disassembly,
> flushing, new rings, and new bearings, but I really don't think that will
> be a better engine than #2.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:28 PM, 1104agm wrote:
>
> > The article is a good options to build a motor.
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180022 is a reply to message #180011] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 22:45 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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| ahamilto wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 21:04 |
| Keith V wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 19:59 |
What does that link have to do with anything I said?...
|
You said| Quote: |
Rebuilding an Olds engine is very different than anything else.
|
On page 1 of the PDF file, Larry Weidner said| Quote: |
The basic principles of rebuilding apply regardless of the motor or size or brand.
There is nothing mysterious or special about any particular motor. They are all basically the same. 1.6l's, 3.8l's 302's, 318's, 327's 454's 455's...500's...all basically the same with a few individual peculiarities.
|
My point was that rebuilding an Olds engine is NOT "very different than anything else."
The rest of the article explains that you don't have to expend vast resources re-machining factory interfaces to rebuild an engine for your GMC.
|
whats your personal experience on this?
Can you tell me for example how the rods go in??
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180025 is a reply to message #180022] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 23:26 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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| Keith V wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 22:45 |
whats your personal experience on this?
Can you tell me for example how the rods go in??
|
My personal experience with an Olds 455 specifically? Never done one.
I have done:
192? Ford 8N tractor
1965 Chevy 283
1971 Ford 302
195? Ford 292
1963 Rambler 6 cylinder (CID unknown, that was 40 years ago)
1965 Ford 170 CID 6 Cyl
196? Ford 250 CID 6 Cyl
193? Minneapolis Moline tractor
1936 Ford 1-ton hay truck, 6 cyl (CID unknown, 40 years ago)
1960 Ford 6 Cyl (CID unknown, 35 years ago)
1976 Pacer 6 Cyl (CID unkown, 30 years ago)
197? Massey Ferguson Tractor (only diesel in the bunch)
Maybe a few others.
I assemble an engine in about the reverse order as I take it apart. If you are talking about the rods that connect the pistons to the crankshaft, I mark them as I remove them so that they go back on the same journals as they came off, each one oriented front to back as it came off. If you are talking about the pushrods that connect the lifters to the rockers, I label them with tape and mark cylinder number, intake or exhaust, and which end was up.
Here's what the MM says:
CONNECTING ROD AND PISTON ASSEMBLY REMOVAL
1 .Remove intake manifold.
2. Remove head or heads, oil pan and oil pump.
NOTE: Stamp cylinder number on the machined surfaces of the bolt bosses of the connecting rod and cap for identification when reinstalling . If the pistons are to be removed from the connecting rod, mark cylinder number on piston with a silver pencil or quick drying paint for proper cylinder identification and cap to rod location. The right bank is numbered 2-4-6-8, left bank 1-3-5-7.
Examine the cylinder bore above ring travel. If ridge exists, remove ridge with ridge reamer before attempting to remove the piston and rod assembly.
3. Remove rod bearing cap and bearing.
4. Install guide hose over threads of rod bolts. This is to prevent damage to bearing journal and rod bolt threads.
5. Remove rod and piston assembly through the top of the cylinder bore.
6. Remove other rod and piston assemblies in the same manner. The connecting rod bearings are designed to have a slight projection above the rod and cap faces to insure a positive contact. Connecting rod bearings can be replaced without removing the rod and piston assembly from the engine.
ROD BEARINGS
1 . Remove oil pan.
NOTE: It may be necessary to remove oil pump to provide access to rear connecting rod bearings.
2. With connecting rod journal at the bottom, stamp cylinder number on machined surfaces of connecting rod and cap for identification when reinstalling, then remove caps.
3. Inspect journals for roughness and wear. Slight roughness may be removed with a fine grit polishing cloth saturated with engine oil. Burrs may be removed with a fine oil stone by moving the stone on the journal circumference. Do not move the stone back and forth across the journal. If the journals are scored or ridged, the crankshaft must be replaced .
4. The connecting rod journals should be checked for out-of-round and correct size with a micrometer . Maximum out-of-round must not exceed .0015" .
If Plastigauge is to be used :
5. Clean oil from journal bearing cap, connecting rod and outer and inner surface of bearing inserts. Position insert so that tang is properly aligned with notch in rod and cap. See Figure 37.
6. Place a piece of plastigauge in the center of lower bearing shell.
7. Reinstall bearing cap and torque to 42 ft. lbs.
8. Remove bearing cap and determine bearing clearances by comparing the width of the flattened plastigauge at its widest point with the graduation on the plastigauge container. The number within the graduation on the envelope indicates the clearance in thousandths of an inch. If this clearance is greater than .0035", replace the bearing and recheck clearance with plastigauge.
NOTE: Lubricate bearing with engine oil before installation . Repeat Steps 2 through 8 on remaining connecting rod bearings. All rods must be connected to their journals when rotating the crankshaft to prevent engine damage.
9. Spread rods with screwdriver and measure the rod side clearance. Clearance should be .006" to .020" .
NOTE: If a rod is twisted or bent, a new rod must be installed. NO ATTEMPT SHOULD BE MADE TO STRAIGHTEN CONNECTING RODS.
I may have a spun bearing, so I could end up tearing into my Olds 455. If I am missing something, that isn't in the MM, I would appreciate a heads up.
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180037 is a reply to message #180033] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 06:42 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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While I agree "building a motor is building a motor" but--- building a motor that will reliably hold the pressure of doing a burnout every time you mash the gas takes a little more consideration. One issue not taken to it's strongest potential and you are asking for failure. Yes, some motors will just go on but that's like taking a ship out on the ocean that has a hull breech. You may get home....
Bearings, pistons, cam specs, chains, valves, push rods, bolts and more are NOT all created equal. Today, just because you have 8 boxes with a piston in each does not mean you have 8 identical pistons. I have been burned by this. Machinr work is not all the same, is the machinist does not use "torque plates" when boring the block you really do not know what you have. If there is tpaer in the crank, the motor will not last. There is just soooo much of this sort of stuff to consider it sometimes boggles my mind how anyone can build a motor and expect it to work!
There are so many issues that if it's not really checked, double checked then hold a prayer meeting over the thing. It's just a thankless job, one that you can do all the right things but Murphy ultimatly holds the strings. I'll tell you this though, if you don't add into a build everything you can do to make the motor strong for pulling low RPM-- High Torque-- it will not in the end. Now, everyone who has a motor that still runs will say "I had no troubles", how do you say to them "you were lucky"?
When you build a motor for a GMC, pay attention to the details...
Jim Bounds
------------------
________________________________
From: Howard and Sue <hnielsen2@cox.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches
What?
I don't under the back and fourth?
Or is this a P***ing contest ?
If so its time to move on.
If you have rebuilt one engine you can rebuild any automotive engine.
Get the specks and work clean.
All is well with my Lord
Signing checks on the front
Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith V" <my427v8@hotmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 20:45
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches
>
>
> ahamilto wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 21:04
>> Keith V wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 19:59
>> > What does that link have to do with anything I said?...
>> You saidQuote:
>> > Rebuilding an Olds engine is very different than anything else.
>> On page 1 of the PDF file, Larry Weidner saidQuote:
>> > The basic principles of rebuilding apply regardless of the motor or
>> > size or brand.
>> > There is nothing mysterious or special about any particular motor. They
>> > are all basically the same. 1.6l's, 3.8l's 302's, 318's, 327's 454's
>> > 455's...500's...all basically the same with a few individual
>> > peculiarities.
>> My point was that rebuilding an Olds engine is NOT "very different than
>> anything else."
>> The rest of the article explains that you don't have to expend vast
>> resources re-machining factory interfaces to rebuild an engine for your
>> GMC.
>
>
>
> whats your personal experience on this?
>
> Can you tell me for example how the rods go in??
>
> --
> Keith
> 69 Vette
> 29 Dodge
> 75 Royale GMC
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180053 is a reply to message #180033] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 08:53 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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| hnielsen2 wrote on Mon, 13 August 2012 00:20 |
What?
I don't under the back and fourth?
Or is this a P***ing contest ?
If so its time to move on.
|
Yes it has turned hasn't it...
I defer to the guy who has only read about olds engines and not actually built one.
flame off
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches [message #180092 is a reply to message #180076] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 12:01 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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See that's the big distinction, you you wanna do it yourself-- go for it and while you are doing it make sure you get your money's worth by having a good time at it because that has got to be part of the reason for doing it yourself. I don;t know about you but I do not have a cylinder bore machine or anything else to do machine work. If you pay someone to do that work you might as well have paid them to build the motor because in the end it will cost you more buying the parts, paying for the machine work then trying to interperate what needs to be done and do it than buying the motor properly built if you do it yourself. That is if you don;t cut corners, do the shade tree thing and slap it. Real machine work, quality parts correctly checked, real building in a clean room with mics and all is not a small job-- it's big and a motor that has to hold up doing what we tell them to do is big time serious. Even doing the right things like many have
done, there is still no real guarantee it will work out well. The least to hope for is someone to help and if you build it that would be you.
Really, this is all about the hobby and the enthusiast, I count myself as one but when you profess to do it for a living it all changes. I am not trying to disuade someone from their God given right to have a hobby, all I am saying is there are many issues to conside building up a motor that does not stem from some special motor-- it's not how special the motor is, it's more how special the work that should be done to it.
I am sorry if it seems like when I post something it polarizes everyone. I do not mean for that to happen, what I am trying to add however is maybe a different larger prospective. Which is, if you want to keep your coach yourself good but if you want to drive it more than work on it you may want to consider additional issues.
Jim Bounds
-------------------
________________________________
From: A. <markbb1@netzero.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 engine rebuild headaches
My apologies to Keith. My intent was to dispel the myth that these Olds 455 engines require specialist expertise that is only available through limited channels or something.
And the premise that you have to bore the cylinders and re-align the cam and crank bores and shave the heads and so on and the work can only be done at Olds specialty machine shops. Yada yada yada.
True that non-specialty shops have a greater probability of getting machine work wrong, but the odds of it being right is still a safe bet.
It irks me when folks that are new here see something that can increase their fear that the engine is some kind of "special" contrivance that can only be rebuilt by a handful of shops nationwide. In reality, many of them get rebuilt by the owner in a shed in his backyard.
It is good to post the details that bit you in your rebuild to help folks avoid the pitfalls, but not to dissuade someone from working on their own vehicle.
--
'73 23' CanyonLands
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