Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Bonus from 1 ton upgrade
| Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179084] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 14:15  |
Gil Slaw
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Location: Hampshire, IL
Karma: 0
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I did my 1 ton front end conversion last year and I pleased with its performance.
I still had too much wander so last month I replaced the steering box with a refurbished P30 box without our "special" turn limiters. As the 1 ton conversion spread the front wheels a few inched there now is no interference with the tires to the frame.
I now have about 1 more turn of the steering wheel between stops and I can now back into my driveway on 1 try, and the wander is gone too!
Gil
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179093 is a reply to message #179084] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 15:30  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Good move, Gil. I hadn't even thought about the box perhaps limiting us
unnecessarily. Have you checked whether the box or the knuckles are the
limiting factor? Had you installed the bolt-on stops Manny provided?
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Gil Slaw wrote:
>
>
> I did my 1 ton front end conversion last year and I pleased with its
> performance.
>
> I still had too much wander so last month I replaced the steering box with
> a refurbished P30 box without our "special" turn limiters. As the 1 ton
> conversion spread the front wheels a few inched there now is no
> interference with the tires to the frame.
>
> I now have about 1 more turn of the steering wheel between stops and I can
> now back into my driveway on 1 try, and the wander is gone too!
>
> Gil
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179137 is a reply to message #179093] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 21:33 |
Gil Slaw
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Location: Hampshire, IL
Karma: 0
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Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 15:30 |
Good move, Gil. I hadn't even thought about the box perhaps limiting us
unnecessarily. Have you checked whether the box or the knuckles are the
limiting factor? Had you installed the bolt-on stops Manny provided?
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Gil Slaw wrote:
>
>
> I did my 1 ton front end conversion last year and I pleased with its
> performance.
>
> I still had too much wander so last month I replaced the steering box with
> a refurbished P30 box without our "special" turn limiters. As the 1 ton
> conversion spread the front wheels a few inched there now is no
> interference with the tires to the frame.
>
> I now have about 1 more turn of the steering wheel between stops and I can
> now back into my driveway on 1 try, and the wander is gone too!
>
> Gil
>
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Ken,
I have no bolt on stops on the linkage, The limits are hard stops in the steering box, see Don Wirth's fine write-up_____ http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf____
I hope that the cut and paste link will work, don't know how to put it in correctly.
Gil
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179139 is a reply to message #179137] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 21:41 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gil,
I understand the stops in the OEM box, and Don's paper (I persuaded him to
prepare it). What I was curious about is whether your P-30 box limits
travel before hitting any mechanical limit at the wheels -- a dangerous
situation, IMHO, which the OEM box obviated.
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Gil Slaw wrote:
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > I have no bolt on stops on the linkage, The limits are hard stops in the
> steering box, see Don Wirth's fine write-up_____
> http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf____
> > I hope that the cut and paste link will work, don't know how to put it
> in correctly.
> >
> > Gil
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179145 is a reply to message #179139] |
Sun, 05 August 2012 22:32 |
Gil Slaw
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Location: Hampshire, IL
Karma: 0
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Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 05 August 2012 21:41 |
Gil,
I understand the stops in the OEM box, and Don's paper (I persuaded him to
prepare it). What I was curious about is whether your P-30 box limits
travel before hitting any mechanical limit at the wheels -- a dangerous
situation, IMHO, which the OEM box obviated.
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Gil Slaw wrote:
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > I have no bolt on stops on the linkage, The limits are hard stops in the
> steering box, see Don Wirth's fine write-up_____
> http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf____
> > I hope that the cut and paste link will work, don't know how to put it
> in correctly.
> >
> > Gil
>
>
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Ken,
I understand, I did not consider a linkage stop. I will pull the Pittman joint and see what the free limits are, I will do before Friday of this week.
Gil
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179342 is a reply to message #179300] |
Tue, 07 August 2012 08:48 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gosh, Gil, I'm sorry to have caused you all that trouble! I'd no idea the
difference in travel would be that great.
My concern arose from my experience with too-thick ball joint head which
caused the knuckle to hit them, severely restricting the turning radius. I
wound up grinding away both some of the heads and the mating surface on the
knuckles. As I looked at that situation, it seemed (seems) to me that the
power steering, aided by the lever ratio between the knuckle's steering arm
and that stop, created the possibility of excessive loads on the ball
joints at full lock. I may be mistaken in that evaluation, but it's the
reason I haven't yet installed the travel stop that came with my 1-ton kit
-- I haven't yet examined what's acting as the travel limits nor why the
stops were offered.
Thanks for investigating this. I'll be interested to hear why the travel
is limited more in one direction than the other -- I'm sure you're
measuring from the "high spot" of the box, so it must be a geometric
difference.
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Gil Slaw <gslaw700@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken, you are correct. The steering angle is limited by the geometry of
> the linkage or at the knuckle. It feels like a fairly hard stop, I don't
> sense a flexing element.
>
> What I found:
>
> At max right turn: drag link disconnected from the Pittman arm. The
> steering wheel could go 3/4 turn more leaving the drag link about 1 1/2
> inches too short.
>
> At max left turn: drag link disconnected from the Pittman arm. The
> steering wheel could go 5/8 turn more making the drag link about 1 5/8 inch
> too long.
>
> To resolve most of the unbalance, I could reposition the Pittman arm on
> the steering box shaft but the splines will not be very happy as they are
> keyed with some flats. I also would have to fuss with the steering wheel
> centering.
>
> I am going to sleep on this for a while and study the linkage geometry
> when my brain is working.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179650 is a reply to message #179342] |
Thu, 09 August 2012 09:58 |
Gil Slaw
Messages: 69
Registered: May 2006
Location: Hampshire, IL
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
| Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 07 August 2012 08:48 |
Gosh, Gil, I'm sorry to have caused you all that trouble! I'd no idea the
difference in travel would be that great.
My concern arose from my experience with too-thick ball joint head which
caused the knuckle to hit them, severely restricting the turning radius. I
wound up grinding away both some of the heads and the mating surface on the
knuckles. As I looked at that situation, it seemed (seems) to me that the
power steering, aided by the lever ratio between the knuckle's steering arm
and that stop, created the possibility of excessive loads on the ball
joints at full lock. I may be mistaken in that evaluation, but it's the
reason I haven't yet installed the travel stop that came with my 1-ton kit
-- I haven't yet examined what's acting as the travel limits nor why the
stops were offered.
Thanks for investigating this. I'll be interested to hear why the travel
is limited more in one direction than the other -- I'm sure you're
measuring from the "high spot" of the box, so it must be a geometric
difference.
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Gil Slaw <gslaw700@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken, you are correct. The steering angle is limited by the geometry of
> the linkage or at the knuckle. It feels like a fairly hard stop, I don't
> sense a flexing element.
>
> What I found:
>
> At max right turn: drag link disconnected from the Pittman arm. The
> steering wheel could go 3/4 turn more leaving the drag link about 1 1/2
> inches too short.
>
> At max left turn: drag link disconnected from the Pittman arm. The
> steering wheel could go 5/8 turn more making the drag link about 1 5/8 inch
> too long.
>
> To resolve most of the unbalance, I could reposition the Pittman arm on
> the steering box shaft but the splines will not be very happy as they are
> keyed with some flats. I also would have to fuss with the steering wheel
> centering.
>
> I am going to sleep on this for a while and study the linkage geometry
> when my brain is working.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
>
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Ken,
After reviewing my notes my conclusions are,
1: Rolling my 80 year old bones around on an asphalt driveway in the sun, on a 95 degree day is not conducive for careful measurements.
2: Looking again at my numbers, the L/R asymmetry can be explained by the stud on the drag link not being perfectly perpendicular and perhaps some spring back of the linkage as the wheels were not firmly secured at the stops when I measured.
3: I now believe that the limiting factor in L/R wheel movement is the relay arm reaching the point of full extension relative to the track rod.
4: Yes, I did consider the "high point" as center.
Please don't feel badly about "causing me trouble", I mostly make trouble for my self!!!!
This issue has now been moved to my C list, item #8.
Gil
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bonus from 1 ton upgrade [message #179718 is a reply to message #179650] |
Thu, 09 August 2012 17:39 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Man! I hope I can still get up from a creeper after another 5 years --
doesn't seem likely. :-(
I think I feel better about the limiting factor you've found than I would
if the knuckles were involved. I doubt that I'll ever install the limit
stops there.
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Gil Slaw wrote:
> ...
> After reviewing my notes my conclusions are,
>
> 1: Rolling my 80 year old bones around on an asphalt driveway in the sun,
> on a 95 degree day is not conducive for careful measurements.
>
> 2: Looking again at my numbers, the L/R asymmetry can be explained by the
> stud on the drag link not being perfectly perpendicular and perhaps some
> spring back of the linkage as the wheels were not firmly secured at the
> stops when I measured.
>
> 3: I now believe that the limiting factor in L/R wheel movement is the
> relay arm reaching the point of full extension relative to the track rod.
>
> 4: Yes, I did consider the "high point" as center.
> ...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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