Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Vapor lock and me (Lots of progress)
| Vapor lock and me [message #178733] |
Thu, 02 August 2012 15:12  |
armandminnie
Messages: 864
Registered: May 2009
Location: Marana, AZ
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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There has been a lot of talk about vapor lock lately so I though I’d give you my 2 cents.
I live in Arizona, I frequently drive my GMC when outside air temperatures exceed 100 degrees Fahrenheit. It is almost impossible to find pure gas (no ethanol) anywhere so I don’t even try – happens by accident sometimes but not very often. I am currently in Branson, Missouri on a planned 8,000+ mile trip from the Tucson, Arizona area to Maine and back again. I have had virtually no problems with vapor lock on this trip.
When I say I have had no problems with vapor lock I mean that I don’t get stuck, the engine doesn’t stall, I can feel the occasional mild ‘stuttering’ after refueling but nothing that causes concern. I hope I am not jinxing myself with this declaration but I have to say it can be overcome – at least until I get fuel that has more than 10% ethanol.
I have driven my coach on extended trips during the summer for the past two years – Maine and back in 2010 and Banff and Vancouver and back in 2011. During those trips I did have vapor lock problems and I was frequently stuck trying to keep the coach running on hot days. Since last year the only major thing I did was (with lots of help and advice from Steve Ferguson) block the crossover ports on my stock intake manifold. Other than that, I use an full time electric fuel pump (Carter P4070 – no mechanical pump) mounted on the outside of the frame as suggested – it has helped but did not solve the problem completely.
Earlier this year we left Arizona on Sunday, April 27th, and crossed the Mojave Desert in 110 degree heat – very early for that kind of heat. The coach had exactly the same configuration as it does now. During that day I did have a couple of interesting things happen.
First, I stopped in Gila Bend, AZ to refuel and the temperature was at about 100 degrees – there was a lot of vapor pressure in the tanks and it took me a couple of minutes to manually bleed the pressure off so that I could remove the gas cap. Immediately after the refueling, vapor lock symptoms (stumbling and hesitation) happened getting back on the highway but quickly went away.
Second, I stopped in Yuma, AZ for more fuel before entering California – trying to save some money. Again I had to spend a lot of time bleeding the vapor pressure off the tanks before I could remove the gas cap. This time I decided that I would leave the gas cap loose because that vapor pressure had to be a potential problem I thought. I left the gas station and could barely keep the engine running well enough to get turned around and back on the highway. I had to stop and put the gas cap back on tight and, within a couple of minutes the problem went away and, has not returned. I have a new fuel-vapor separator and charcoal canister in case you are wondering – they apparently can’t keep up with the vapor produced in the tanks.
I suspect that the excessive vapor pressure in the tanks on that day was due to the gas not being formulated correctly for the outside air temperature – it was still the winter formulation.
Even on this trip, the only hint of vapor lock problems has occurred immediately after refueling. I would have to guess that the vapor pressure buildup helps to stop the fuel from boiling in the tanks. Although the vapor pressure is there when I try to remove the gas cap it is nowhere as high as it was in April.
Armand Minnie
Marana, AZ
'76 Eleganza II TZE166V103202
visit my gmc blog
click here to visit gmcws.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178743 is a reply to message #178733] |
Thu, 02 August 2012 17:33  |
Arthur Mansfield
Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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My latest trip I had several issues with vapor lock much like what Armand described below. I never got stuck but sure lost power several times. I am trying to figure out the best fix before I take a long trip next summer. To date my longest trip has been about 1000 miles each way. What worries me is someone I know works at cleaning the large storage gas tanks and he knowns some of the suppliers are using more than 10% alcohol to get the octane rating they are required to have. He told me locally which gas not to buy but what is happening around the country. So I buy name gas only while traveling. I will keep up which gas companies I have trouble with in the future. Does anyone know which companies have the best control of the gas. My friend told me BP has the tightest control of the gas around here.
Thinking of changes:
I guess I will add foam installation to the bottom of my tanks and insulate my fuel lines up by the engine. I do not know what is a safe insulation to rap or cover the fuel lines up by the engine. I expect my problem is the fuel in the tank was pre heated and was also heated by the engine in fuel line after the fuel pump and vaporizes once it get into the carb.
What I experienced:
I saw my water temperature read out go as high as 240F after I refueled. That is when my worst problem occurred with vapor locking except for stopping for read lights. I started to keep my engine RPM up at red lights to keep the water flowing faster but I do know if that helped except the vapor lock issue seemed to be reduced. But after running hard and then doing stop and go traffic at Nashville I had my worst problem. It did not clear up shortly after I got rolling down the highway again. My thinking was either I got a hold of some bad gas (Shell Gas so I do not think it was bad gas) or I had heated my gas tank and the gas was preheated and then did not take much heating up by the engine to vaporize in the carb. My worst problem occurred when got I stuck behind a semi and drove slow for a while under heavy throttle and then had extreme vapor problem trying to climb a grade. I had to back off the gas just to keep the engine running an slowly climb up the grade in seco
nd gear on part throttle. It cleared up farther down the road once I got up to speed for a while. I even passed a semi going up a grade at full throttle for a while once everything cooled off.
My Engine Temperatures:
My temperature did not exceed 210 even on grades but once and it was along grade. I normally ran water temps between 195F and 180F. I would cruise for long periods at 190F without the clutch fan coming on. I used to have trouble with engine temperature before I added an oil cooled and increase the carb jets two sizes. I use to run up to 230F on grades and above 210F at 70 MPH unless I ran direct drive on the fan. I added a oil cooled and carb change I ran about 500 miles run between 70 and 80 MPH when traffic allowed without any engine temp problems. I would guess I did heat the gas tank up during that run. I had no problems on trip to New York but a drove between 55 and 63 MPH on the way up and it was over 100F when we left AL. This time I was trying to get home before noon to minimize the temperature inside the RV.
Other BS
I only used direct drive on the fan when the AC belt came off and destroyed the clutch fan. The direct drive is really noise but keep the engine temperature down near the thermostat temperature except on grades. Now I carry a spare clutch fan and a direct drive and have changed to Gates Belts per Jim B recommendation and have not had any belt problems ... at least for about 7k miles. Once I got these belts broke in and the tension reset I have had to adjust them.
I have an AL intake so I do not have a cross flow problem in the carb. Yes! It still could be a carb temperature problem combined with warm gas.
Art & Doris
76 EL
Decatur AL
On Aug 2, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Armand Minnie wrote:
>
>
> There has been a lot of talk about vapor lock lately so I though I’d give you my 2 cents.
>
> I live in Arizona, I frequently drive my GMC when outside air temperatures exceed 100 degrees Fahrenheit. It is almost impossible to find pure gas (no ethanol) anywhere so I don’t even try – happens by accident sometimes but not very often. I am currently in Branson, Missouri on a planned 8,000+ mile trip from the Tucson, Arizona area to Maine and back again. I have had virtually no problems with vapor lock on this trip.
>
> When I say I have had no problems with vapor lock I mean that I don’t get stuck, the engine doesn’t stall, I can feel the occasional mild ‘stuttering’ after refueling but nothing that causes concern. I hope I am not jinxing myself with this declaration but I have to say it can be overcome – at least until I get fuel that has more than 10% ethanol.
>
> I have driven my coach on extended trips during the summer for the past two years – Maine and back in 2010 and Banff and Vancouver and back in 2011. During those trips I did have vapor lock problems and I was frequently stuck trying to keep the coach running on hot days. Since last year the only major thing I did was (with lots of help and advice from Steve Ferguson) block the crossover ports on my stock intake manifold. Other than that, I use an full time electric fuel pump (Carter P4070 – no mechanical pump) mounted on the outside of the frame as suggested – it has helped but did not solve the problem completely.
>
> Earlier this year we left Arizona on Sunday, April 27th, and crossed the Mojave Desert in 110 degree heat – very early for that kind of heat. The coach had exactly the same configuration as it does now. During that day I did have a couple of interesting things happen.
>
> First, I stopped in Gila Bend, AZ to refuel and the temperature was at about 100 degrees – there was a lot of vapor pressure in the tanks and it took me a couple of minutes to manually bleed the pressure off so that I could remove the gas cap. Immediately after the refueling, vapor lock symptoms (stumbling and hesitation) happened getting back on the highway but quickly went away.
>
> Second, I stopped in Yuma, AZ for more fuel before entering California – trying to save some money. Again I had to spend a lot of time bleeding the vapor pressure off the tanks before I could remove the gas cap. This time I decided that I would leave the gas cap loose because that vapor pressure had to be a potential problem I thought. I left the gas station and could barely keep the engine running well enough to get turned around and back on the highway. I had to stop and put the gas cap back on tight and, within a couple of minutes the problem went away and, has not returned. I have a new fuel-vapor separator and charcoal canister in case you are wondering – they apparently can’t keep up with the vapor produced in the tanks.
>
> I suspect that the excessive vapor pressure in the tanks on that day was due to the gas not being formulated correctly for the outside air temperature – it was still the winter formulation.
>
> Even on this trip, the only hint of vapor lock problems has occurred immediately after refueling. I would have to guess that the vapor pressure buildup helps to stop the fuel from boiling in the tanks. Although the vapor pressure is there when I try to remove the gas cap it is nowhere as high as it was in April.
>
> --
> Armand Minnie
> Marana, AZ
> '76 Eleganza II
> TZE166V103202
> http://www.minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome
> use the forum - it's easy
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178749 is a reply to message #178743] |
Thu, 02 August 2012 18:43 |
armandminnie
Messages: 864
Registered: May 2009
Location: Marana, AZ
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I have done nothing to insulate my fuel tanks and I doubt that it would do any good. I am basing this on some data in a presentation by Chuck Garton (Mr. Instrumentation) written up on the gmcws.org web site at http://gmcws.org/blog/?p=505 - I am sure my fuel is boiling sometimes when I stop but the electric fuel pump is getting enough gas between bubbles to supply what the engine needs.
I have done work to eliminate engine cooling issues written up by me at http://minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome/?p=744 and I don't have any fan noise, temperature fluctuations, etc. any more. I can believe that this might have some effect on vapor lock.
If you do not have an electric fuel pump I would say that should be your next step and getting as much of the fuel system as you can outside of the frame would be a good idea.
Armand Minnie
Marana, AZ
'76 Eleganza II TZE166V103202
visit my gmc blog
click here to visit gmcws.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178941 is a reply to message #178936] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 10:30 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Putting the fuel pump , filter, selector vale outside the frame and keeping
the least amount of hose between the frame is one way to avoid picking up
more heat in the fuel.
Warmer the fuel, greater the chance for vapor lock.
The temperature between the frame is at least 30-40degrees warmer.
This is an issue when your driving in town and the movement of fuel is
minimal and the radiant heat from the engine and exhaust system becomes a
big influence.
I can tell you that having the bottom of the tank coated with heat
rejecting paint has helped several that has used our product.
Our tanks are about 9" off the ground and flat like a pan cake and fuel
gets heated easily.
I experience boiling fuel in the tank when it gets to 90degrees.
I plan on coating the tanks eventually.
I have the heat shield by the exhaust pipe and tank also
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Richard <bukzin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Why is putting the electric fuel pump outside the frame important?
>
>
> Thanks for sharing what you have learned.
> --
> Bukzin
> 1977 Palm Beach
> Chico California
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Vapor lock and me [message #178943 is a reply to message #178733] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 10:35 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Mounting the fuel pump outside the frame rails is supposed to place it in an area of cooler air flow than under the coach.
However, it seems that it also would be much more vulnerable to rock debris, etc.
Has anyone ever done temperature measurements of fuel in the tanks, in the lines, etc. to see where it gains most of the heat? I suspect that it occurs in the tanks themselves on hot days, and is further aggravated by the routing of fuel lines close to the hot engine, and eventually into the carb float bowls.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178944 is a reply to message #178743] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 10:40 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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I think that if you install in-tank fuel pumps it will take care of your problem. Jim Kanomata (Applied GMC) has a kit for lower pressure pumps suitable for vehicles with a carb.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
On Aug 2, 2012, at 4:33 PM, 1104agm <1104agm@gmail.com> wrote:
> My latest trip I had several issues with vapor lock much like what Armand described below. I never got stuck but sure lost power several times. I am trying to figure out the best fix before I take a long trip next summer. To date my longest trip has been about 1000 miles each way. What worries me is someone I know works at cleaning the large storage gas tanks and he knowns some of the suppliers are using more than 10% alcohol to get the octane rating they are required to have. He told me locally which gas not to buy but what is happening around the country. So I buy name gas only while traveling. I will keep up which gas companies I have trouble with in the future. Does anyone know which companies have the best control of the gas. My friend told me BP has the tightest control of the gas around here.
>
> Thinking of changes:
>
> I guess I will add foam installation to the bottom of my tanks and insulate my fuel lines up by the engine. I do not know what is a safe insulation to rap or cover the fuel lines up by the engine. I expect my problem is the fuel in the tank was pre heated and was also heated by the engine in fuel line after the fuel pump and vaporizes once it get into the carb.
>
> What I experienced:
>
> I saw my water temperature read out go as high as 240F after I refueled. That is when my worst problem occurred with vapor locking except for stopping for read lights. I started to keep my engine RPM up at red lights to keep the water flowing faster but I do know if that helped except the vapor lock issue seemed to be reduced. But after running hard and then doing stop and go traffic at Nashville I had my worst problem. It did not clear up shortly after I got rolling down the highway again. My thinking was either I got a hold of some bad gas (Shell Gas so I do not think it was bad gas) or I had heated my gas tank and the gas was preheated and then did not take much heating up by the engine to vaporize in the carb. My worst problem occurred when got I stuck behind a semi and drove slow for a while under heavy throttle and then had extreme vapor problem trying to climb a grade. I had to back off the gas just to keep the engine running an slowly climb up the grade in se
co
> nd gear on part throttle. It cleared up farther down the road once I got up to speed for a while. I even passed a semi going up a grade at full throttle for a while once everything cooled off.
>
> My Engine Temperatures:
>
> My temperature did not exceed 210 even on grades but once and it was along grade. I normally ran water temps between 195F and 180F. I would cruise for long periods at 190F without the clutch fan coming on. I used to have trouble with engine temperature before I added an oil cooled and increase the carb jets two sizes. I use to run up to 230F on grades and above 210F at 70 MPH unless I ran direct drive on the fan. I added a oil cooled and carb change I ran about 500 miles run between 70 and 80 MPH when traffic allowed without any engine temp problems. I would guess I did heat the gas tank up during that run. I had no problems on trip to New York but a drove between 55 and 63 MPH on the way up and it was over 100F when we left AL. This time I was trying to get home before noon to minimize the temperature inside the RV.
>
> Other BS
>
> I only used direct drive on the fan when the AC belt came off and destroyed the clutch fan. The direct drive is really noise but keep the engine temperature down near the thermostat temperature except on grades. Now I carry a spare clutch fan and a direct drive and have changed to Gates Belts per Jim B recommendation and have not had any belt problems ... at least for about 7k miles. Once I got these belts broke in and the tension reset I have had to adjust them.
>
> I have an AL intake so I do not have a cross flow problem in the carb. Yes! It still could be a carb temperature problem combined with warm gas.
>
> Art & Doris
> 76 EL
> Decatur AL
> On Aug 2, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Armand Minnie wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> There has been a lot of talk about vapor lock lately so I though I’d give you my 2 cents.
>>
>> I live in Arizona, I frequently drive my GMC when outside air temperatures exceed 100 degrees Fahrenheit. It is almost impossible to find pure gas (no ethanol) anywhere so I don’t even try – happens by accident sometimes but not very often. I am currently in Branson, Missouri on a planned 8,000+ mile trip from the Tucson, Arizona area to Maine and back again. I have had virtually no problems with vapor lock on this trip.
>>
>> When I say I have had no problems with vapor lock I mean that I don’t get stuck, the engine doesn’t stall, I can feel the occasional mild ‘stuttering’ after refueling but nothing that causes concern. I hope I am not jinxing myself with this declaration but I have to say it can be overcome – at least until I get fuel that has more than 10% ethanol.
>>
>> I have driven my coach on extended trips during the summer for the past two years – Maine and back in 2010 and Banff and Vancouver and back in 2011. During those trips I did have vapor lock problems and I was frequently stuck trying to keep the coach running on hot days. Since last year the only major thing I did was (with lots of help and advice from Steve Ferguson) block the crossover ports on my stock intake manifold. Other than that, I use an full time electric fuel pump (Carter P4070 – no mechanical pump) mounted on the outside of the frame as suggested – it has helped but did not solve the problem completely.
>>
>> Earlier this year we left Arizona on Sunday, April 27th, and crossed the Mojave Desert in 110 degree heat – very early for that kind of heat. The coach had exactly the same configuration as it does now. During that day I did have a couple of interesting things happen.
>>
>> First, I stopped in Gila Bend, AZ to refuel and the temperature was at about 100 degrees – there was a lot of vapor pressure in the tanks and it took me a couple of minutes to manually bleed the pressure off so that I could remove the gas cap. Immediately after the refueling, vapor lock symptoms (stumbling and hesitation) happened getting back on the highway but quickly went away.
>>
>> Second, I stopped in Yuma, AZ for more fuel before entering California – trying to save some money. Again I had to spend a lot of time bleeding the vapor pressure off the tanks before I could remove the gas cap. This time I decided that I would leave the gas cap loose because that vapor pressure had to be a potential problem I thought. I left the gas station and could barely keep the engine running well enough to get turned around and back on the highway. I had to stop and put the gas cap back on tight and, within a couple of minutes the problem went away and, has not returned. I have a new fuel-vapor separator and charcoal canister in case you are wondering – they apparently can’t keep up with the vapor produced in the tanks.
>>
>> I suspect that the excessive vapor pressure in the tanks on that day was due to the gas not being formulated correctly for the outside air temperature – it was still the winter formulation.
>>
>> Even on this trip, the only hint of vapor lock problems has occurred immediately after refueling. I would have to guess that the vapor pressure buildup helps to stop the fuel from boiling in the tanks. Although the vapor pressure is there when I try to remove the gas cap it is nowhere as high as it was in April.
>>
>> --
>> Armand Minnie
>> Marana, AZ
>> '76 Eleganza II
>> TZE166V103202
>> http://www.minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome
>> use the forum - it's easy
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: Vapor lock and me [message #178946 is a reply to message #178733] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 11:01 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
Thanks for any advice!
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178953 is a reply to message #178946] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 11:43 |
 |
ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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George,
Replacing your fuel lines with metal is a good thing. Poly-Armour is available at Napa stores, is easily bent by hand, and is corrosion resistant to our modern fuels.
<http://www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour>
Larry Davick
On Aug 4, 2012, at 9:01 AM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
>
> How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
>
> Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
> --
> George Rudawsky
> Chicago, IL
> 75 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
>
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178954 is a reply to message #178946] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 11:47 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
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Check here for pictures.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mallory-fuel-filter-outside-the-rail/p25710-outside-frame-large-fu.html
There is a gap above the frame where the hoses reach. The original hoses going to the selector valves from the tank will reach.
I would be concerned about Aluminum tubing cracking if there is any vibration. I used 3/8 in sections of brake line with fittings attached that I purchased from Autozone. I believe they came in 6' lengths.
Emery Stora
On Aug 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
>
> How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
>
> Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
> --
> George Rudawsky
> Chicago, IL
> 75 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178960 is a reply to message #178954] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 12:42 |
Arthur Mansfield
Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I still have a carb and am thinking far out... The amount of alcohol in gas is going to go up and not down. Some of the cheaper gas being sold has more then 10% now. They are using alcohol to raise the octant.
Changing the air filter to a smaller one above the engine and try and get cooler air intake to the carb to reduce heat from the filter to the carb. Move the fuel lines out side the frame rails. Then I was thinking of getting a small oil cooler and a fan set up to cool the gas before it goes into the carb when stopped or in slow traffic (manually control the fan). Does anyone see anything wrong with using a AL. oil cooler for gas? I have considered building one from copper or steel gas line if a oil cooler was a bad Idea.
Then insulate the gas tanks and move the muffler to behind the gas tank. Install an electric fuel pump as back up to the mechanical fuel pump. In insulate the gas lines to the carb.
Art & Doris
76 EL
Decatur AL
On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
> Check here for pictures.
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mallory-fuel-filter-outside-the-rail/p25710-outside-frame-large-fu.html
>
> There is a gap above the frame where the hoses reach. The original hoses going to the selector valves from the tank will reach.
>
> I would be concerned about Aluminum tubing cracking if there is any vibration. I used 3/8 in sections of brake line with fittings attached that I purchased from Autozone. I believe they came in 6' lengths.
>
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
>>
>> How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
>>
>> Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
>>
>> Thanks for any advice!
>> --
>> George Rudawsky
>> Chicago, IL
>> 75 Palm Beach
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178974 is a reply to message #178960] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 14:39 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The vapor lock is forming in the lowest pressure zone of the system. That is in the suction side of your fuel pump -- that is between the fuel pump and your fuel tank.
I think that a lot of what you are thinking of doing is not going to make a difference.. Insulating the gas tanks might slow down the amount of heat in the tank but likewise when the tanks get hot it will keep the heat in them.
Before I solved my problem by putting in the in-tank fuel pumps I had considered putting in a fuel cooler but decided that if I have a vapor lock back by the tanks then a cooler wouldn't do any good.
Emery Stora
On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:42 AM, 1
104agm wrote:
> I still have a carb and am thinking far out... The amount of alcohol in gas is going to go up and not down. Some of the cheaper gas being sold has more then 10% now. They are using alcohol to raise the octant.
>
> Changing the air filter to a smaller one above the engine and try and get cooler air intake to the carb to reduce heat from the filter to the carb. Move the fuel lines out side the frame rails. Then I was thinking of getting a small oil cooler and a fan set up to cool the gas before it goes into the carb when stopped or in slow traffic (manually control the fan). Does anyone see anything wrong with using a AL. oil cooler for gas? I have considered building one from copper or steel gas line if a oil cooler was a bad Idea.
>
> Then insulate the gas tanks and move the muffler to behind the gas tank. Install an electric fuel pump as back up to the mechanical fuel pump. In insulate the gas lines to the carb.
>
> Art & Doris
> 76 EL
> Decatur AL
>
> On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
>
>> Check here for pictures.
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mallory-fuel-filter-outside-the-rail/p25710-outside-frame-large-fu.html
>>
>> There is a gap above the frame where the hoses reach. The original hoses going to the selector valves from the tank will reach.
>>
>> I would be concerned about Aluminum tubing cracking if there is any vibration. I used 3/8 in sections of brake line with fittings attached that I purchased from Autozone. I believe they came in 6' lengths.
>>
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
>>>
>>> How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
>>>
>>> Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any advice!
>>> --
>>> George Rudawsky
>>> Chicago, IL
>>> 75 Palm Beach
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178978 is a reply to message #178974] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 14:50 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
what in tank fuel pumps did you use and do you still use the mech. one in the front at all?
On Aug 4, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
> The vapor lock is forming in the lowest pressure zone of the system. That is in the suction side of your fuel pump -- that is between the fuel pump and your fuel tank.
>
> I think that a lot of what you are thinking of doing is not going to make a difference.. Insulating the gas tanks might slow down the amount of heat in the tank but likewise when the tanks get hot it will keep the heat in them.
>
> Before I solved my problem by putting in the in-tank fuel pumps I had considered putting in a fuel cooler but decided that if I have a vapor lock back by the tanks then a cooler wouldn't do any good.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:42 AM, 1
>
>
>
>
> 104agm wrote:
>
>> I still have a carb and am thinking far out... The amount of alcohol in gas is going to go up and not down. Some of the cheaper gas being sold has more then 10% now. They are using alcohol to raise the octant.
>>
>> Changing the air filter to a smaller one above the engine and try and get cooler air intake to the carb to reduce heat from the filter to the carb. Move the fuel lines out side the frame rails. Then I was thinking of getting a small oil cooler and a fan set up to cool the gas before it goes into the carb when stopped or in slow traffic (manually control the fan). Does anyone see anything wrong with using a AL. oil cooler for gas? I have considered building one from copper or steel gas line if a oil cooler was a bad Idea.
>>
>> Then insulate the gas tanks and move the muffler to behind the gas tank. Install an electric fuel pump as back up to the mechanical fuel pump. In insulate the gas lines to the carb.
>>
>> Art & Doris
>> 76 EL
>> Decatur AL
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>
>>> Check here for pictures.
>>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mallory-fuel-filter-outside-the-rail/p25710-outside-frame-large-fu.html
>>>
>>> There is a gap above the frame where the hoses reach. The original hoses going to the selector valves from the tank will reach.
>>>
>>> I would be concerned about Aluminum tubing cracking if there is any vibration. I used 3/8 in sections of brake line with fittings attached that I purchased from Autozone. I believe they came in 6' lengths.
>>>
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
>>>>
>>>> How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
>>>>
>>>> Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any advice!
>>>> --
>>>> George Rudawsky
>>>> Chicago, IL
>>>> 75 Palm Beach
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #178982 is a reply to message #178978] |
Sat, 04 August 2012 15:06 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I haven't used a mechanical pump for over 12 years.
Since I use fuel injection (TBI) I used a higher pressure pump.
Jim Kanomata has bot high pressure and low pressure pumps.
Emery Stora
On Aug 4, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle wrote:
> what in tank fuel pumps did you use and do you still use the mech. one in the front at all?
>
>
> On Aug 4, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>
>> The vapor lock is forming in the lowest pressure zone of the system. That is in the suction side of your fuel pump -- that is between the fuel pump and your fuel tank.
>>
>> I think that a lot of what you are thinking of doing is not going to make a difference.. Insulating the gas tanks might slow down the amount of heat in the tank but likewise when the tanks get hot it will keep the heat in them.
>>
>> Before I solved my problem by putting in the in-tank fuel pumps I had considered putting in a fuel cooler but decided that if I have a vapor lock back by the tanks then a cooler wouldn't do any good.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:42 AM, 1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 104agm wrote:
>>
>>> I still have a carb and am thinking far out... The amount of alcohol in gas is going to go up and not down. Some of the cheaper gas being sold has more then 10% now. They are using alcohol to raise the octant.
>>>
>>> Changing the air filter to a smaller one above the engine and try and get cooler air intake to the carb to reduce heat from the filter to the carb. Move the fuel lines out side the frame rails. Then I was thinking of getting a small oil cooler and a fan set up to cool the gas before it goes into the carb when stopped or in slow traffic (manually control the fan). Does anyone see anything wrong with using a AL. oil cooler for gas? I have considered building one from copper or steel gas line if a oil cooler was a bad Idea.
>>>
>>> Then insulate the gas tanks and move the muffler to behind the gas tank. Install an electric fuel pump as back up to the mechanical fuel pump. In insulate the gas lines to the carb.
>>>
>>> Art & Doris
>>> 76 EL
>>> Decatur AL
>>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>>
>>>> Check here for pictures.
>>>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mallory-fuel-filter-outside-the-rail/p25710-outside-frame-large-fu.html
>>>>
>>>> There is a gap above the frame where the hoses reach. The original hoses going to the selector valves from the tank will reach.
>>>>
>>>> I would be concerned about Aluminum tubing cracking if there is any vibration. I used 3/8 in sections of brake line with fittings attached that I purchased from Autozone. I believe they came in 6' lengths.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Emery Stora
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've had a Carter fuel pump and filter that I've been waiting to mount for a year or more, and am glad to hear that it's not been a problem as I do like the easier access to change filters, mount the pump, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> How did you route the file lines around the frame rails? I would like to eventually switch to a metal fuel line wherever possible to help mitigate the effects of the ethanol on the flexible lines, and wondered if I could snake them above the frame rails to the pump.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, is there any reason not to use the aluminum fuel line as it is easier to bend. Is it affected adversely by the ethanol? It seems that most folks are using some other type of fuell line from the posts I've been reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any advice!
>>>>> --
>>>>> George Rudawsky
>>>>> Chicago, IL
>>>>> 75 Palm Beach
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vapor lock and me [message #179876 is a reply to message #178942] |
Sat, 11 August 2012 16:46 |
Tim Conway
Messages: 412
Registered: September 2005
Location: Long Island, New York
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:33 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
> When I later installed in-tank fuel pumps I eliminated all the rest of the rubber hoses from the tanks to the throttle body. I have not had any vapor lock problems after the use of in-tank fuel pumps even when traveling in 120 deg Arizona heat or when at high elevations.
I just got a call from Richard, the GMCer that was stuck near me, and then later on the Cross Bronx Expressway approaching the George Washington Bridge back in mid July. He attended the rally he was going to, and mentioned talking to several of the people whose names I've frequently seen here, always speaking very highly.
He thought there were issues in addition to vapor lock and has his GMC at Mike Glover's in New Hampshire. While on the lift they saw lots of modifications and deterioration of the fuel lines. The plan is to drop the tanks and do what needs to be done.
I mentioned that I saw what I quoted above and would send any info along to him. I also saw later in that thread Emery mentioning that he used the higher pressure fuel pump from JimK because he has TBI. Richard has FI, I'm not sure if TBI, though. Are details of your installation out there, Emery?
The work at Mike Glover's is supposed to happen on Tuesday. Is there a good reference out there for things to do and/or check when the tanks are dropped? Richard is full timing and interested in doing things right.
Thanks for any advice.
Tim Conway
LI NY 78 PB
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