Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC
| [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175730] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 08:04  |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Netters
I have been watching ads on TV for new cars ( they're hard to avoid), with
each advertised new vehicle getting better mileage than the last. I know
there is a new testing method, but what does it consist of to be able to
get the phenomenal mileages they report ?
The old testing methods did not take into consideration terrain, speeds, or
weather conditions as far as I know, so what is happening to increase the
new figures?
Just wonderin'
Thanks
Mike in NS
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175733 is a reply to message #175730] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 08:17  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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We're going to apply the new test cycle to our GMCs. With luck, we ought to get them up to somewhere between 8 and 10 mpg.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Kingsley Coach <kingsleygmc@gmail.com>
To: Gmclist <Gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 9:04 AM
Subject: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC
Netters
I have been watching ads on TV for new cars ( they're hard to avoid), with
each advertised new vehicle getting better mileage than the last. I know
there is a new testing method, but what does it consist of to be able to
get the phenomenal mileages they report ?
The old testing methods did not take into consideration terrain, speeds, or
weather conditions as far as I know, so what is happening to increase the
new figures?
Just wonderin'
Thanks
Mike in NS
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175738 is a reply to message #175730] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 08:47 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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All I know is I used to have an 82 Horizon tc3 miser that would get 30's around town, and 45mpg on the freeway.
Still hard to beat that, and if you do it's expensive!
Hopeing the get up to 8-10 mpg on the GMC...
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175766 is a reply to message #175730] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 11:55 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Kingsley Coach wrote on Fri, 06 July 2012 09:04 |
Netters
I have been watching ads on TV for new cars ( they're hard to avoid), with each advertised new vehicle getting better mileage than the last. I know there is a new testing method, but what does it consist of to be able to get the phenomenal mileages they report ?
The old testing methods did not take into consideration terrain, speeds, or weather conditions as far as I know, so what is happening to increase the new figures?
Just wonderin'
Thanks
Mike in NS
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Mike,
I can not tell you about the rules in Canada, I do know that they are different, but I know that there has not been much change in testing procedure here in the US for a very long time.
So, What has Happened?
New control strategies, variable cam timing and vast efforts to optimize vehicles for either fuel economy or performance. If you notice, they seldom mention both on the same page. I personally have to laugh at some. I had cars years ago that did what they are bragging about today. All it took was careful attention to one's driving style. Yes, that is now programed into the ECU of a new car.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175769 is a reply to message #175739] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 12:09 |
stick miller
Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia
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| Harry wrote on Fri, 06 July 2012 09:51 |
I just did a mileage check on my '94 Caprice wagon with the LT1.
24 MPG (Imperial)
Not too bad for a land yacht.
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Same for me in the '96 Cadillac Fleetwood (but US equivalent)
I like the new way of measuring: miles per tankful. That makes about as much sense as "how long is a string?" My old GMC Suburban Diesel had a 42 (I think) gallon tank. Using this logic, it got better mileage than our VW.
Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA
[Updated on: Fri, 06 July 2012 12:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175832 is a reply to message #175730] |
Fri, 06 July 2012 23:01 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Kingsley Coach wrote on Fri, 06 July 2012 07:04 |
Netters
I have been watching ads on TV for new cars ( they're hard to avoid), with
each advertised new vehicle getting better mileage than the last. I know
there is a new testing method, but what does it consist of to be able to
get the phenomenal mileages they report ?
The old testing methods did not take into consideration terrain, speeds, or
weather conditions as far as I know, so what is happening to increase the
new figures?
Just wonderin'
Thanks
Mike in NS
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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Those mileage claims are calculated by the EPA, not the manufacturers. There have been attempts to revise the test cycle and the calculations to more closely represent what consumers achieve. Various technologies do better than others.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175902 is a reply to message #175832] |
Sat, 07 July 2012 15:01 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Given the amount iof computing power available now, I'm surprised to see someone hasn't figured how to make the in car computer recognize the test cycle, and when it does so, turn the engine to 'no smog' mode. Then when it no longer recognizes, or you give it an input, it reverts to 'damn the ozone, full speed ahead' mode.
This has possibilities...
--johnny
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC
Kingsley Coach wrote on Fri, 06 July 2012 07:04
> Netters
>
> I have been watching ads on TV for new cars ( they're hard to avoid), with
> each advertised new vehicle getting better mileage than the last. I know
> there is a new testing method, but what does it consist of to be able to
> get the phenomenal mileages they report ?
>
> The old testing methods did not take into consideration terrain, speeds, or
> weather conditions as far as I know, so what is happening to increase the
> new figures?
>
> Just wonderin'
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike in NS
>
> --
> Michael Beaton
> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
> Antigonish, NS
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Those mileage claims are calculated by the EPA, not the manufacturers. There have been attempts to revise the test cycle and the calculations to more closely represent what consumers achieve. Various technologies do better than others.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175945 is a reply to message #175730] |
Sat, 07 July 2012 20:12 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Too long ago for me to remember the details, and I only heard the story 3rd or 4th hand, but back before the age of computers, one of the GM cars (one of the older muscle cars, but I don't recall which) had a "hood switch" that changed ignition timing and idle speed when the hood was open. (which it was on the epa dyno's). EPA figured it out after a while, and didn't have much of a sense of humor about it. I would say that would discourage retry's of such things, but with the constant purging of technical (and legal?) memory, it wouldn't surprise me if similar tricks happen again. But, in modern engines, they wring the calibrations out pretty far as it is, and there isn't a lot of room for improvement.
There is also a term called "bureaucratic symbiosis" where the regulators and the regulatee's become dependent on each other, so that makes it more of a challenge from an organizational standpoint.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175946 is a reply to message #175902] |
Sat, 07 July 2012 20:13 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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One minor detail that is not published, the gasoline used for the official test is 100 percent real gasoline, formulated for testing use. No 10 percent solution here. If you need to lie, it is hard to beat the EPA.
Tom Phipps,
MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175954 is a reply to message #175730] |
Sat, 07 July 2012 21:00 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Direct Injection
Multivalve variable duraton and control (VVTI, etc.)
Distributor-less and variable ignition
Hemispherical combustion chambers
More than two valves per cyl
.
.
.
Technology.
Really, MPG in smaller cars has not really increased, only HP and Torque have with MPG's remaining relatively constant. If we didn't need 280HP in a midsize car, or 200 HP in a small car, think of what kind of MPG a small car today (albeit heavier than earlier cars) would achieve.
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175966 is a reply to message #175902] |
Sat, 07 July 2012 22:30 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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""Given the amount iof computing power available now, I'm surprised to see someone hasn't figured how to make the in car computer recognize the test cycle, and when it does so, turn the engine to 'no smog' mode. Then when it no longer recognizes, or you give it an input, it reverts to 'damn the ozone, full speed ahead' mode.
This has possibilities...
""
GM tried that and was fined millions!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175967 is a reply to message #175954] |
Sat, 07 July 2012 22:33 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Chr$ wrote on Sat, 07 July 2012 20:00 |
Direct Injection
Multivalve variable duraton and control (VVTI, etc.)
Distributor-less and variable ignition
Hemispherical combustion chambers
More than two valves per cyl
.
.
.
Technology.
Really, MPG in smaller cars has not really increased, only HP and Torque have with MPG's remaining relatively constant. If we didn't need 280HP in a midsize car, or 200 HP in a small car, think of what kind of MPG a small car today (albeit heavier than earlier cars) would achieve.
|
That's all in production now--the next thing is homgenious gasoline combustion In other words, compression ignition using gasoline.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #175995 is a reply to message #175730] |
Sun, 08 July 2012 07:50 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
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As Bob said, there is a rule that disallows "cycle-beating", but there has been some interesting attempts. One use a hood switch. I suppose the explanation went something like this: "Well, er, ah, on the dyno the engine runs hot so we have to open the hood, and, er, we have to change the mixture because the carburetor, er, runs lean, no rich, ah...."
And then one sensed the angle of the car - the dynos of the days put the rear wheels in a notch, so a "trim angle" sensor could detect when it was on a dyno. Refer to the explanation above.
But all cars have something like cylcle-beaters built in. If the dyno cycle never runs the engine above 3,000 rpm, then anything above that is fair game. Cycle-beating?
I've found that the new cars come much closer to the tested numbers than the old carbureted cars. In fact, my Malibu will slightly beat the numbers. Things are getting better.
Gary
""Given the amount iof computing power available now, I'm surprised to see someone hasn't figured how to make the in car computer recognize the test cycle, and when it does so, turn the engine to 'no smog' mode. Then when it no longer recognizes, or you give it an input, it reverts to 'damn the ozone, full speed ahead' mode.
This has possibilities...
""
GM tried that and was fined millions!
--
Bob de Kruyff
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #176012 is a reply to message #175966] |
Sun, 08 July 2012 08:46 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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But, did it work?
--johnny
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC
""Given the amount iof computing power available now, I'm surprised to see someone hasn't figured how to make the in car computer recognize the test cycle, and when it does so, turn the engine to 'no smog' mode. Then when it no longer recognizes, or you give it an input, it reverts to 'damn the ozone, full speed ahead' mode.
This has possibilities...
""
GM tried that and was fined millions!
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #176018 is a reply to message #175995] |
Sun, 08 July 2012 09:08 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Yeah. I see the engine in the Cad CTS-V is what - just over 6 liters, and it's making numbers my Roadrunner with the 7 liter hemi RB engine never made. But lordy I LOVE brute force. What would an optimized 455 inch modern design engine make?
As an aside, I went over to the EAA ch611 fly - in yesterday. Among others, three or four Stearmans and a Loadstar. Few things sound as nice as a round motor idling and making takeoff power......,.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC
As Bob said, there is a rule that disallows "cycle-beating", but there has been some interesting attempts. One use a hood switch. I suppose the explanation went something like this: "Well, er, ah, on the dyno the engine runs hot so we have to open the hood, and, er, we have to change the mixture because the carburetor, er, runs lean, no rich, ah...."
And then one sensed the angle of the car - the dynos of the days put the rear wheels in a notch, so a "trim angle" sensor could detect when it was on a dyno. Refer to the explanation above.
But all cars have something like cylcle-beaters built in. If the dyno cycle never runs the engine above 3,000 rpm, then anything above that is fair game. Cycle-beating?
I've found that the new cars come much closer to the tested numbers than the old carbureted cars. In fact, my Malibu will slightly beat the numbers. Things are getting better.
Gary
""Given the amount iof computing power available now, I'm surprised to see someone hasn't figured how to make the in car computer recognize the test cycle, and when it does so, turn the engine to 'no smog' mode. Then when it no longer recognizes, or you give it an input, it reverts to 'damn the ozone, full speed ahead' mode.
This has possibilities...
""
GM tried that and was fined millions!
--
Bob de Kruyff
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GMCnet mailing list
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mileage claims for new cars//non GMC [message #176084 is a reply to message #175730] |
Sun, 08 July 2012 18:59 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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I think it was one of the popular car magazines that did a test of cars that "claimed" 40 MPG for highway driving 2 or 3 different cars were tested and with sensible driving the 40 MPG was exceeded. I think the people from the magazine got something like 44 MPG.Intesting that 100 % Gasoline is used as it's hard to get someplaces. I wonder how one gets access to a lab that can test for MPG and do back to back tests for 100% gas and 10% Ethanol gas. Might give the Feds "gas".
DAVE KING
Toronto, On, Canada, near Ft. York of the War of 1812 fame.
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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