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| [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174424] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 02:20  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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G'day,
I signed up for the WebRodder NewsLetter when Byron told us about Doc's plugging the crossover procedure.
Here's what came in today!
I have Doc's Big Inch Cadillac book and found it most informative. I REALLY like his signature at the bottom of the article!
Regards,
Rob M.
PS - the word "froh" means happy in German!
Quote
Dear Rob,
(NOTE: There was a glitch in the system that meant some people did not receive this NewsLetter the first time it was sent. If you
already got it, just ignore it. If not, my apologies for the screw-up!)
I was thinking on what I wanted to include in this NewsLetter and it dawned on me that some things have gelled recently that need
some attention. I am a little hesitant about opening this can of worms up. For some people, most of them not part of this little
group, uncomfortable facts and anything that doesn't directly benefit themselves are unfamiliar territory. That's sad because this
issue has been quietly doing a lot of damage and the mis-information and outright lies surrounding it have led some very good people
to make very bad decisions. The subject is ethanol.
I'll make this brief. It takes more energy to make ethanol that it provides. It takes the equivalent of 1.2 gallons of some
petroleum based fuel to make 1 gallon of the stuff. What you get is something that has less energy - it takes 1.7 times as much
ethanol to make the same energy as gasoline. The decision to burn our food has not only resulted in extraordinary increases in our
own food prices, but has killed many many thousands of people who can no longer afford to feed themselves. The actual ecological
footprint of ethanol is higher than gasoline so even that is no excuse. No net benefit, a few rich corporations getting richer, and
all of us get to pay for it. Despite the fact that farmers are getting more per bushel because we are burning our food, I think if
you sit down and do the math, you'll find they are getting screwed just like the rest of us - so we can't and won't lay this fiasco
at the feet of hard-working farmers. They may actually be getting hammered! even worse, whether or not they know the reasons.
Sitting here in Iowa as I write this, I am led to understand that the boom in corn has led to a lot of new debt and many are
concerned that when the rug is finally pulled they will be in terrible financial trouble in many cases.
But the message here I want to talk about is the damage to our projects. Ethanol eats parts. It melts or makes sealing parts,
diaphragms, and O-rings hard and brittle. It contributes to the premature failure of our vintage engines, small engines, motorcycle
engines, etc. It makes our engines eat more fuel. And whether you are aware of it or not, performance and efficiency are down
because our carburetors are not designed to use it and the modern fuels are no longer formulated for them. To get carbureted engines
to work as they should on this stuff requires professional recalibration and modification. And one more thing: It either melts or
makes brittle our fuel lines and that could mean your favorite ride becomes a towering inferno.
If you want to see this in action, look into the history of how NASCAR came to run fuel injection. First it was sponsorship money
that made them use ethanol blends. Then they discovered there was too much damage being done - cars were flushed and dumped after
races to prevent the damage. Then, with even more sponsorship money, we find that to quell all the complaints about damage and
inconsistent fuel mixtures and engine problems, NASCAR finally caved and went with EFI to try to prevent some if not all of the
problems. Now look at all the engine failures and wonder why...
I discovered this when I found my daily driver was leaking fuel. I ended up pulling the tank and finding that the fuel lines
installed just 2 years ago had become brittle and had cracked. The fuel was running out near the exhaust pipe. I got lucky and saw
the drips when I visited a friend and parked on a nice clean concrete pad. How long have YOUR fuel lines been installed? One
high-end restored car collector/builder changes his lines every few months because he sees the damage and is not willing to risk his
investments. Many sources ask that you dump your fuel tank if the car is going to sit more than a couple months. Do people like this
go through the effort for nothing, or is your project at risk? At the least I would think you'd want to look into this and decide
for yourself how you want to deal with it.
Now, I have changed the lines, installed steel lines to replace most of the rubber, and then added something new to me. If you look,
you will find a few of the rubber parts manufacturers have begun marketing ethanol resistant fuel line. It ain't cheap - up to 6
bucks a foot. However, it does use what we have for technology to delay the lines failing. It does NOT stop it. Right now we have no
compound commercially available that will resist ethanol's attack permanently. But this should last a good long time - especially in
combination with reducing the actual flexible line to just necessary connections at places where it can be regularly checked before
the fire starts.
Look, there are lots of parts and solutions put there being advertised that are meant to mitigate the damage from ethanol. Some
work. Major companies like Gates Rubber are doing this. Any number of companies are trying to find an additive that will keep the
ethanol in suspension, stop the hydrophilic (water-attracting) tendency from watering your fuel, and reduce the damage to both steel
and rubber parts. With all this activity, it has to be obvious, if not politically correct, that the nasty stuff is bad for our
projects. Wishing will not keep it from being so.
So what I am saying is that there IS a problem. Ignoring it will not fix it. While returning to sanity and giving up a scheme that
even AL Gore has admitted to be foolish and not ecologically sound is less likely, at the least we should be protecting what we
have. Going to 15% ethanol will be a disaster. Even in Iowa on the pumps you'll see a warning that says the 15% is only for flex
fuel vehicles. (In South Dakota, they are trying to replace 87 octane fuel with 85 because it is the base fuel for the ethanol-laced
stuff. I can see the pistons melting, the cacophony of detonation, and the end of many an engine.) Almost all of your older engines
will stop working or soon be damaged so badly as to be junk unless you step in. Carbs will be much harder if even possible to
continue to use unless both carbs and distributors are re-calibrated - not cheap. I suggest you look into what is out there that can
prolong the life of your project or you will lose it. It's hard to go anywhere these days where real working mechanics and parts
people aren't working at figuring out solutions for all the problems this stuff has created. Hell, they are even selling non-ethanol
fuel at the hardware stores for small engines - by the quart!
I don't have all the answers. People like me are struggling to try to protect our hobby and businesses from the attack brought on by
well-intentioned but misguided people who thought the idea of growing fuel was a great idea with no consequences. Those unintended
consequences are now biting us right in the shorts. Is it too much to ask that you educate yourselves? Can you find people who do
NOT have a lot of profits to protect (like big agri-business corporations who own the corn-ethanol industry) that will provide the
truth and help you understand that this is important if you intend to continue owning and driving your hot rods, customs, muscle
cars, antiques, and classic? Or, for that matter, two-stroke engines and many air-cooled motorcycle engines? Or that even the car
you are buying new today will eventually end up with some of the same problems? Please, guys, consider me to be a canary in the coal
mine and either start to deal with this problem or decide I am full of crap! At least I will have caused you to make an informed
decision you can be content with.
Doc (Farmboy) Frohmader
WebRodder
There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is
that man's lawful prey.
John Ruskin (1819-1900) British Author, Artist, Essayist and Critic
Many problems we face today are there because people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream
media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Unquote
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174430 is a reply to message #174424] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 08:10  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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This is also a very good article, with lots of facts and pointers that are
often forgotten, overlooked, or unknown:
http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=602&SID=8
Ken H.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> G'day,
>
> I signed up for the WebRodder NewsLetter when Byron told us about Doc's
> plugging the crossover procedure.
> ...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174433 is a reply to message #174431] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 09:06 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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True dat. One of my suppliers, Continental Electronics, is known in our industry for offering the best support of any of our manufacturers. They get a premium price for their product, but they sell a premium product and support it awesomely. I had occasion many years ago to call them at 2 in the morning, and got the gentleman who was at that time head of Field Service. I told him Gee I'm sorry to bother you but I have a problem with the radio..... he immediately replied You paid me when you bought it. What's the problem? And then spent 30 minutes on the phone listening and gently redirecting me to the actual problem so I could fix it. Those guys aways end a support call with Now call me back if you have further trouble.
I recently spent roughly 25 Large with them buying pieces to overhaul a radio they built in 1980. My employers would have bought us a Brand X new for four times the price. I'd rather have the rebuild - which is now up to new spec - and support that the Brand X whose support often started with "It can't do that".
I notice our dedicated suppliers for my GMC have not so far done anything but tell me how to fixe the problem. Could I get brake cylinders cheaper? Porbably. But, I have the correct ones, and I have support if I run into a problem with them. Worth $$$ in the long run.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol
And here's one very appropriate for us regarding our vendors:
http://www.webrodder.com/news.php?ID=32
Ken H.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> G'day,
>
> I signed up for the WebRodder NewsLetter when Byron told us about Doc's
> plugging the crossover procedure.
> ...
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174443 is a reply to message #174436] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 10:54 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Well, depending how much money you've spent with them, you can go after them under the premise of 'Implied Mercantibility'. Which hadn't oughta be necessary.
--johnny
From: Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol
Johnny,
I'm glad you still have a manufacturer who stands behind their equipment.
In my business their usual line is "works as designed". But the best one was when I pointed out that the paging tones on a new model two-way radio remote controller needed to be de-emphasized in order to come out the transmitter as flat audio for proper operation. I was told that "proper operation was not a supported feature"!!
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174454 is a reply to message #174430] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 17:54 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
The FIRST thing I spotted in this article was the holes drilled in all three sections of the frame! The top (horizontal), side
(vertical), and bottom (horizontal)!
Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
This is also a very good article, with lots of facts and pointers that are
often forgotten, overlooked, or unknown:
http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=602&SID=8
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174455 is a reply to message #174435] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 18:00 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Matt,
I disagree; I reckon you spent the right amount of time.
Comes under (kinda - sorta) under the old adage of "how come there's not enough time to do it right but there's always enough time
to do it over?
The rubber tubes on the selector valves are no big deal, they're easy to get to, check (squeeze?); and replace.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Rob,
I'm sort of glad you posted that. I just spent way too long replacing the fuel system with Polyarmour. The only place there is
still anything else under the coach is around the selector valve. I couldn't figure out how to do that in steel. All the flexible
lines are J30R14(TI) (Gates 4219 - Barrier).
Maybe I'm just not as paranoid as I hoped.
I may be paranoid, but it has served me well.
Matt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174458 is a reply to message #174454] |
Sun, 24 June 2012 18:06 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Hopefully, the doublers are designed to sufficiently make up for the loss
of strength in the flanges.
But then, that article was only about fasteners. :-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> The FIRST thing I spotted in this article was the holes drilled in all
> three sections of the frame! The top (horizontal), side
> (vertical), and bottom (horizontal)!
>
> Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm?
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174515 is a reply to message #174435] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 07:22 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
Have you seen the new plug and play fittings for the EFI quality
hose? (no clamps.) I'm in the process of installing the new MSD EFI on a
project car and those fittings are sweet.
If anyone is interested, this is as close as you will ever get to a
simple, plug and play EFI system that does not require a return line. No
wads of wire, one universal application, no laptop, no fuel pressure
regulator, and the only programming is done on a supplied data input device
where you type in engine displacement and cam specs. From there on, it
learns by itself. Expensive, but complete and sailor proof.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rob,
>
> I'm sort of glad you posted that. I just spent way too long replacing the
> fuel system with Polyarmour. The only place there is still anything else
> under the coach is around the selector valve. I couldn't figure out how to
> do that in steel. All the flexible lines are J30R14(TI) (Gates 4219 -
> Barrier).
>
> Maybe I'm just not as paranoid as I hoped.
>
> I may be paranoid, but it has served me well.
>
> Matt (finally out from under the coach)
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will
> find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Doc Frohmader's Take on Ethanol [message #174519 is a reply to message #174515] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 08:42 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Steven Ferguson wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 08:22 |
Matt,
Have you seen the new plug and play fittings for the EFI quality hose? (no clamps.) I'm in the process of installing the new MSD EFI on a project car and those fittings are sweet.
If anyone is interested, this is as close as you will ever get to a simple, plug and play EFI system that does not require a return line. No wads of wire, one universal application, no laptop, no fuel pressure regulator, and the only programming is done on a supplied data input device where you type in engine displacement and cam specs. From there on, it learns by itself. Expensive, but complete and sailor proof.
|
Steve,
I know those push on fittings. They were used on my 1987 T-coupe. The MasterCool flare tool that I borrowed makes the line end for those - too.
There are some things that paranoid engineers do and a common one is called "protect for". That means that when we build, we include in the thinking the possibility of probably future requirements.
Well, I carried both fill vents as separate lines as far forward as practical. It this case, that was to where the fill pipe bends to the fill door. Part of this thinking was that I could add another fuel selector for any return line and make the fuel return to the selected tank.
If I convert my engine to computer control, it will be mostly to get knock controlled spark. As it is a '73, that will take a lot of hardware changes. There isn't much chance of that in my current situation.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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