Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
| Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173257] |
Wed, 13 June 2012 22:58  |
bhayes
Messages: 263
Registered: March 2010
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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After seeing Dan's thread on monitoring the engine and transmission, I was wondering if anyone has ever put a temperature sensor in the generator compartment, or a temperature sensor on the Onan itself.
Speaking of Onans, I installed the new replacement control board Dinosaur/JimK sent me and cleaned the battery connections this evening. The beast was running well for about 10 minutes, but suddenly started hunting and running very rough, even after I shut off the loads (one roof air and the water heater). After stopping and restarting it, it seems to be running fine for now.
The adventure continues...
Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173269 is a reply to message #173257] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 01:13  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Brien,
When the load is applied, go to the main fuel jet adjustment and open
(counter clock wise) about half a turn and see if the hunting will be
eliminated.
The main jet is recessed in slightly so one does not see that.
Always make sure that the fuel line coming from the tank to the base
and from the base to the pump is a 1/4" fuel hose.
Our shop has been playing with a unit that has a problem on hot days
and will mount a sensor to monitor temp around the pump and carb area
and see what it is facing.
Always check that all connections from the tank , to the base and from
the base are tight.
We feel that the fuel prime switch that we use to have the late Duane
Simmons supply is very beneficial in having a fast start.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Bryan Hayes <hayesnet1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> After seeing Dan's thread on monitoring the engine and transmission, I was wondering if anyone has ever put a temperature sensor in the generator compartment, or a temperature sensor on the Onan itself.
>
> Speaking of Onans, I installed the new replacement control board Dinosaur/JimK sent me and cleaned the battery connections this evening. The beast was running well for about 10 minutes, but suddenly started hunting and running very rough, even after I shut off the loads (one roof air and the water heater). After stopping and restarting it, it seems to be running fine for now.
>
> The adventure continues...
> --
> Bryan Hayes
> '76 Eleganza II
> Salt Lake City, Utah
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Brien,
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jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173287 is a reply to message #173257] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 09:37 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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How about a Cylinder Head Temp gauge? I was told to unplug the fuel pump and let the fuel get burned up that would normallly sit in the bowl. I did that a few times, but the needle assembly dried out and leaked. So running it seems like a better solution.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173292 is a reply to message #173289] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 09:56 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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One of the best ways to prevent restart issues on Gensets, or for that
matter, GMC's in general, is to exercize them frequently. Most gensets used
in standby mode have the capability of startup every 30 days automatically.
They usually start up, run a couple of minutes without load, then a partial
load until full operating temperature is achieved. They then reduce the
load, run a short cool down cycle, and then go to sleep for a month. Some
critical backup plants are cycled more often than this, like the ones at
911 centers or hospitals & fire departments. The GMC's will give fewer
problems with brakes and wheel bearings if used frequently. Kinda like your
doctor says, "Use it or lose it". <Grin>
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:47 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> I think it is a good idea to run a carburetor dry
> whenever you are not going to be using an engine
> for 30 days or more. I try to do that about once
> a month on my lawn mower. Put a manual shut-off
> valve in the fuel line or disable an electric fuel
> pump to do that.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>
>
>
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > From: gregg_dan@hotmail.com
> > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:37:25 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
> >
> >
> >
> > Bryan,
> > What Jim K. said.
> > Once I had the same problem. Emery told me same thing Jim did you.
> Worked. I had changed altitudes. When I got back to Missouri I rotated the
> screw back to where it was. Could have been trash in the bowl also if you
> have not been running the thing monthly with a load on it. Bowl gets gummy
> just sitting.
> > For Onan temp, I have an automatic fire extinguisher there like the Jims
> sell. It will go off at 286 degrees. So far, so good. However, one could
> buy a cheap wireless thermometer and put the remote on the Onan. I use one
> in my refer.
> > Dan
> > always looking for a better way
> > --
> > Dan & Teri Gregg
> >
> >
> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173299 is a reply to message #173257] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 11:07 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| bhayes wrote on Wed, 13 June 2012 22:58 |
After seeing Dan's thread on monitoring the engine and transmission, I was wondering if anyone has ever put a temperature sensor in the generator compartment, or a temperature sensor on the Onan itself.
Speaking of Onans, I installed the new replacement control board Dinosaur/JimK sent me and cleaned the battery connections this evening. The beast was running well for about 10 minutes, but suddenly started hunting and running very rough, even after I shut off the loads (one roof air and the water heater). After stopping and restarting it, it seems to be running fine for now.
The adventure continues...
|
Here is a link Tom sent me recently on remote temperatur sensors for engine compartments.
http://filear.com/?p=199
As for the main carb jet -- I will repeat a comment I made some time ago -- the O ring also seems to deteriorate faster these days. Fuel may affect it -- or the O rings from Ace Hardware are not up to the task for more than 24 months.
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173311 is a reply to message #173292] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 13:25 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Actually, most start up and take load as soon as they reach goverened speed. At least mine do. I use what Onan used to call a 'hospital set' which will take load in 10 seconds or less after a call. This require3s that there be a block heater on the genset, but they start a lot easier when they're warm anyway. Our research shopws it takes a listener an average of 17 seconds to change stations when the one he's listening to suddenly goes away. If we hadda wait a couple of minutes, we'd as well to save the money.
If the genset is at 100 degrees F, you won't hurt it to crank and load immediately.
Now the new supergeewhiz Cummins engine, unlike the older ones, cranks at idle and them ramps up to goverened speed. Takes maybe 2 seconds. The older ones (Cummins Big Cam engines) crank and run directly up to goverened speed. I got both. The Big Cams cool down at goverened speed also, while the new ones scale back to idle for cooldown.
Basically, if the engine is 70 degrees or greater, it6 will take load without damage as soon as the turbocharger spools up. Average is 4.5 seconds on the older ones, about 8 on the new ones.
Our sets exercise weekly under load for 45 minutes. Anytime we do late night work at a site, we walk up and yank the commercial power disconnect and stand there in the dark and see what happens. Maybe once every four or five years nothing happens. Better to find this out at 2 ayem sunday when it doesn't coast much of anything than at 8A on Friday where we're losing 5 to 10 Large per hour. And, while exercising gives some confidence, this is the only true test of a backup power system - take the main power away witho0ut warning and see what happens.
Unlike yours, we can't put our inventory on the shelf and sell it later. If it's passed, it's gone. We put a lot of time and money into backup power and airconditioning systems for our transmitters.
--johnny
4,6,7.5,25, 75, 150, 300KW Cummins/Onan
4.5, 75, 175KW Kohler
125KW Caterpiggle
1MW Caterpiggle
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
One of the best ways to prevent restart issues on Gensets, or for that
matter, GMC's in general, is to exercize them frequently. Most gensets used
in standby mode have the capability of startup every 30 days automatically.
They usually start up, run a couple of minutes without load, then a partial
load until full operating temperature is achieved. They then reduce the
load, run a short cool down cycle, and then go to sleep for a month. Some
critical backup plants are cycled more often than this, like the ones at
911 centers or hospitals & fire departments. The GMC's will give fewer
problems with brakes and wheel bearings if used frequently. Kinda like your
doctor says, "Use it or lose it". <Grin>
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 7:47 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> I think it is a good idea to run a carburetor dry
> whenever you are not going to be using an engine
> for 30 days or more. I try to do that about once
> a month on my lawn mower. Put a manual shut-off
> valve in the fuel line or disable an electric fuel
> pump to do that.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>
>
>
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > From: gregg_dan@hotmail.com
> > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:37:25 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
> >
> >
> >
> > Bryan,
> > What Jim K. said.
> > Once I had the same problem. Emery told me same thing Jim did you.
> Worked. I had changed altitudes. When I got back to Missouri I rotated the
> screw back to where it was. Could have been trash in the bowl also if you
> have not been running the thing monthly with a load on it. Bowl gets gummy
> just sitting.
> > For Onan temp, I have an automatic fire extinguisher there like the Jims
> sell. It will go off at 286 degrees. So far, so good. However, one could
> buy a cheap wireless thermometer and put the remote on the Onan. I use one
> in my refer.
> > Dan
> > always looking for a better way
> > --
> > Dan & Teri Gregg
> >
> >
> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173317 is a reply to message #173257] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 14:08 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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The Airbus APU starts and can take electrical and pneumatic loads immediately. When it shuts down, it goes into a cool-down mode unloaded for a few seconds then continues it's shutdown.
I'm not sure how this applies, but I thought it might be interesting.
The CHT could warn of overheating, if you knew what the normal range should be.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173324 is a reply to message #173311] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 16:33 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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One of my local clients is a hospital. They replaced the manager in charge of engineering (maintenance). The new manager fired a long time maintenance employee because he felt his job was not necessary. He would he just contract out the maintenance employee's the work as necessary. That maintenance employee got a new high paying job in Iraq.
Every Friday they test the back up diesel generators at the hospital. They is also a diverse feed from the local power company from two different sources.
Can you see what is coming? One night around 2 AM they lost both commercial feeds and the generator(s) kicked in just fine for about 1/2 hour until they ran out of diesel. Guess who's job it was to keep the diesel tanks full?
They were without out power for a little over 6 hours. Today that useless maintenance manger is gone (I know I had to work with him a few times) and the employee who went to Iraq is back and now the manager.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173328 is a reply to message #173257] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 17:12 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Great story Ken. Goes back to:
Good
Fast
Cheap
You can only have 2, any 2 but not ever all three.
Hope that no patients suffered from that screwup.
I would think the best way to take the temperature on the Onan would be an oil temp probe. The oil is the temp "ballast" on an air cooled unit to stabilize it. I would laugh a Porsche owners that think their engines are air cooled. They are only in part air cooled. There is also 9 qts of oil to stabilize temp and a big oil cooler radiator to dump heat.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173329 is a reply to message #173289] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 17:15 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I have used johnston outboards for 20 years for scuba diving and always ran the gas out of them
after use, they never gum up, and always have run great because of this. NO carb gum up.
It works.
best regards mickey :-)
On Jun 14, 2012, at 7:47 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald wrote:
>
> I think it is a good idea to run a carburetor dry
> whenever you are not going to be using an engine
> for 30 days or more. I try to do that about once
> a month on my lawn mower. Put a manual shut-off
> valve in the fuel line or disable an electric fuel
> pump to do that.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>
>
>
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> From: gregg_dan@hotmail.com
>> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:37:25 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bryan,
>> What Jim K. said.
>> Once I had the same problem. Emery told me same thing Jim did you. Worked. I had changed altitudes. When I got back to Missouri I rotated the screw back to where it was. Could have been trash in the bowl also if you have not been running the thing monthly with a load on it. Bowl gets gummy just sitting.
>> For Onan temp, I have an automatic fire extinguisher there like the Jims sell. It will go off at 286 degrees. So far, so good. However, one could buy a cheap wireless thermometer and put the remote on the Onan. I use one in my refer.
>> Dan
>> always looking for a better way
>> --
>> Dan & Teri Gregg
>>
>>
>> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173364 is a reply to message #173328] |
Fri, 15 June 2012 06:12 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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There are so many things going on here that I don't know where to start.
First - The big enemy of all engines is thermal cycling. This is why capital engines (where a piston ring is over 1k$) are kept warm all the time. They also have lube oil pumps that run continuously. These engines also run 6k+ hours per year and do not get overhauled in the decade.
If an engine is kept warm (~100°F), it can accept full load as soon as the crankshaft speed is stable. That means a time like several seconds.
The real problem with loading a cold engine is not that the engine parts are cold, it is that the lube oil just doesn't behave the way it should when it is cold and it isn't every place it should be yet. (see above)
If you want to start an run your genset (APU) on a monthly schedule, that is fine, but it is still at counting thermal cycles even if you aren't. If you are going to leave it for long at all, you are much better off running it out of fuel and fogging it so the bores don't have a chance to corrode.
Someone thinks that running the carburetor dry caused the needle point to dry out. That just can't happen. What would happen to those millions of carb kits sitting on sheeves? Most likely he had an old material needle point and the alcohol hardened it.
Just like O-rings.... Hardware store O-rings are plumbing parts and are not for modern (crap) motorfuel service. Don't even bother. Go find a real O-ring supplier. They usually have a minimum bill that amounts to about a hundred small viton parts, but they will give you one or two. (Give the guy at the counter some beer money if he does.)
Mobil1 may be good for long term and abusive service, but it still collects combustion by-products that are corrosive. This is just some of what would kill dino-oil, those by-products could actually attack the oil components and damage the load bearing film capability. Leaving it in an engine more than a year is still just not a good idea. If you are running the engine less than 50 hours a year, change the oil out anyway, remove and drain the filter and put it back on, they don't age out. If you are old enough to remember when Mobil1 was introduced, they were talking about 25k oil changes and just changing out the lube oil filter and such. That all stopped when they found out that engines (under their warranty) were failing due to corrosion issues. They oil was still good are lubricating, but it was loaded with nasty stuff that was bad for engine life.
Break's over, Back on my head....
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - ChaumiĆØre -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173367 is a reply to message #173317] |
Fri, 15 June 2012 07:01 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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We had - but took out of inventory due to fiuel burn - some turbine gensets which were essentially a jet APU in a box. Although they get a LOT hotter internaly, the parts which get really hot - burner chambers and driven spool - have little mass and consequently cool fairly quickly. The cool down mode is more for the alternator. Our whistle boxes (EMU 12 if memory serves) simply shut off when you hit the switch. Of course, they didn't have to be rated aitrworthy. And I find this sort of information quite interesting - thanks!
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 [palm beach
From: Randy <Acrosport2@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
The Airbus APU starts and can take electrical and pneumatic loads immediately. When it shuts down, it goes into a cool-down mode unloaded for a few seconds then continues it's shutdown.
I'm not sure how this applies, but I thought it might be interesting.
The CHT could warn of overheating, if you knew what the normal range should be.
--
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173372 is a reply to message #173364] |
Fri, 15 June 2012 07:50 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
That sounds to me like a great opportunity to provide a service to the
community and a minor income source: Buy the required quantity of the Onan
main jet O-rings and resell them here and at rallies for whatever's
necessary -- $1.00 - $3.00. I can state for a fact that CarQuest is not
reluctant to charge $1.75 for ONE green O-ring.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
> ... Go find a real O-ring supplier. They usually have a minimum bill
> that amounts to about a hundred small viton parts,
...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor? [message #173375 is a reply to message #173324] |
Fri, 15 June 2012 08:46 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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This is what happens when someone in finance takes the short sighted view. In my industry (Broadcasting) this is a common practice. It bityes you in the ass about 6-15 months later when the equipment fails for lack of ongoing maintenance. I tell these folks, 1) Money up front; 2) $850 a day or fraction; and 3) they spend so many of my days they could have hired someone to do it full time for less. And, if they are in a Radio - One market, they're SOL, because I don't pick up contract jobs where my full time employer has a presence, It pays for gas and parts for the GMC and show entry fees. One nyumbnuts manager had a jock go start his genset and lash the bypass start switch down so it would run. For about ten loaded minutes till the engine siezed for lack of oil. New crankshaft, camshaft, bearings, pistons, and sleeves in a 200KW Onan plant with a Cummins diesel. Zero sympathy.
--johnny
'76 23' transmoide norrias
'76 [palm beach
From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator Compartment Temperature Sensor?
One of my local clients is a hospital. They replaced the manager in charge of engineering (maintenance). The new manager fired a long time maintenance employee because he felt his job was not necessary. He would he just contract out the maintenance employee's the work as necessary. That maintenance employee got a new high paying job in Iraq.
Every Friday they test the back up diesel generators at the hospital. They is also a diverse feed from the local power company from two different sources.
Can you see what is coming? One night around 2 AM they lost both commercial feeds and the generator(s) kicked in just fine for about 1/2 hour until they ran out of diesel. Guess who's job it was to keep the diesel tanks full?
They were without out power for a little over 6 hours. Today that useless maintenance manger is gone (I know I had to work with him a few times) and the employee who went to Iraq is back and now the manager.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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