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| [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170676] |
Wed, 23 May 2012 19:56  |
peabody
Messages: 126
Registered: May 2011
Location: steamboat springs, co
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hello,
Last Fall I had Jim K's front wheel spacers installed and then I parked the GMC for the winter. On the way to the storage facility and back last weekend (about 85 miles total) I noticed a distinct vibration at 20 to 35 mph and the coaches' steering reminded me of my 1990 Escort with bad tie rods at any speed (i.e. "loose"). Am I correct that the spacers will exacerbate underlying front suspension issues and / or will the alignment be out of whack just due to the addition of the spacers?? The motorhome has 97K with (as far as I know) original front suspension parts.
Finally, the steering is noticeably worse after the spacers.
Thanks for any suggestions.
William S. Schurman
P.O. 772806
Steamboat Springs, CO (Ski Town USA)
at the foot of Rabbit Ears Pass
970-846-4212
'78 Palm Beach TZE 168V100258
'66 912
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170688 is a reply to message #170676] |
Wed, 23 May 2012 21:51  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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I don't have them so my opinions are just based on my basic understanding of the engineering of the front ends. This is exagerated by front wheel drive under heavy acceleration. You move the wheels from a neutral position to an exagerated arc. Loading increases on torsion bars and sockets, bearings. ball joints and on all the other L to R controling joints during contact with road shocks like potholes. If everything is tight, while it gives the vehicle a better "stance", it's at the expense of correct geometry. If for example imagine the wheel spacer was 1' thick. That would also put an outward load on the lower ball joint and inward force on the upper. As originally engineered these forces were (at rest) vertical on the lower ball joint and pretty much nothing on the upper as a loctator only.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170690 is a reply to message #170688] |
Wed, 23 May 2012 22:22 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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John,
Spot on, Mate!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Lebetski
I don't have them so my opinions are just based on my basic understanding of the engineering of the front ends. This is exagerated
by front wheel drive under heavy acceleration. You move the wheels from a neutral position to an exagerated arc. Loading increases
on torsion bars and sockets, bearings. ball joints and on all the other L to R controling joints during contact with road shocks
like potholes. If everything is tight, while it gives the vehicle a better "stance", it's at the expense of correct geometry. If
for example imagine the wheel spacer was 1' thick. That would also put an outward load on the lower ball joint and inward force on
the upper. As originally engineered these forces were (at rest) vertical on the lower ball joint and pretty much nothing on the
upper as a loctator only.
--
John
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170695 is a reply to message #170690] |
Thu, 24 May 2012 00:43 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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John,
Your very correct, but I have seen several that have used them for
over 80-100 thousand miles on them and convinced me it was worth
manufacturing them.
One guy was the late Bobby Moore of Kentucky.
I feel that sometimes you need to sacrifice in one area to gain in another.
Most of our miles are applied not in town driving, but more on open roads.
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> John,
>
> Spot on, Mate!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John R. Lebetski
>
> I don't have them so my opinions are just based on my basic understanding of the engineering of the front ends. This is exagerated
> by front wheel drive under heavy acceleration. You move the wheels from a neutral position to an exagerated arc. Loading increases
> on torsion bars and sockets, bearings. ball joints and on all the other L to R controling joints during contact with road shocks
> like potholes. If everything is tight, while it gives the vehicle a better "stance", it's at the expense of correct geometry. If
> for example imagine the wheel spacer was 1' thick. That would also put an outward load on the lower ball joint and inward force on
> the upper. As originally engineered these forces were (at rest) vertical on the lower ball joint and pretty much nothing on the
> upper as a loctator only.
> --
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170715 is a reply to message #170695] |
Thu, 24 May 2012 08:28 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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As a former owner/driver of a Chevy Citation X-11 and a
Buick Skyhawk T-Type Turbo Coupe with manual tranny, I
am quite familiar with the "torque steer" symptoms. I
seriously doubt that the weight to power/torque ratio of
the GMC coach comes anywhere close to that of those cars!
Since the torque steer is normally only serious when high
engine loads (lots of loud pedal) are applied, I am NOT
afraid!
If my front end is such that the spacers make things worse,
I will simply remove them and then try again after I have
some front suspension upgrades done. I am buying them from
someone who has done the 1-ton mod, so if I am "stuck" with
them, so be it.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 22:43:54 -0700
> From: jimkanomata@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question
>
> John,
> Your very correct, but I have seen several that have used them for
> over 80-100 thousand miles on them and convinced me it was worth
> manufacturing them.
> One guy was the late Bobby Moore of Kentucky.
> I feel that sometimes you need to sacrifice in one area to gain in another.
> Most of our miles are applied not in town driving, but more on open roads.
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > Spot on, Mate!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob M.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John R. Lebetski
> >
> > I don't have them so my opinions are just based on my basic understanding of the engineering of the front ends. This is exagerated
> > by front wheel drive under heavy acceleration. You move the wheels from a neutral position to an exagerated arc. Loading increases
> > on torsion bars and sockets, bearings. ball joints and on all the other L to R controling joints during contact with road shocks
> > like potholes. If everything is tight, while it gives the vehicle a better "stance", it's at the expense of correct geometry. If
> > for example imagine the wheel spacer was 1' thick. That would also put an outward load on the lower ball joint and inward force on
> > the upper. As originally engineered these forces were (at rest) vertical on the lower ball joint and pretty much nothing on the
> > upper as a loctator only.
> > --
> > John
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170716 is a reply to message #170690] |
Thu, 24 May 2012 08:33 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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I don't have enough power to do what I would call "heavy acceleration!"
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 13:22:18 +1000
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question
>
> John,
>
> Spot on, Mate!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John R. Lebetski
>
> I don't have them so my opinions are just based on my basic understanding of the engineering of the front ends. This is exagerated
> by front wheel drive under heavy acceleration. You move the wheels from a neutral position to an exagerated arc. Loading increases
> on torsion bars and sockets, bearings. ball joints and on all the other L to R controling joints during contact with road shocks
> like potholes. If everything is tight, while it gives the vehicle a better "stance", it's at the expense of correct geometry. If
> for example imagine the wheel spacer was 1' thick. That would also put an outward load on the lower ball joint and inward force on
> the upper. As originally engineered these forces were (at rest) vertical on the lower ball joint and pretty much nothing on the
> upper as a loctator only.
> --
> John
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front wheel spacers Question [message #170760 is a reply to message #170696] |
Thu, 24 May 2012 19:01 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| rf_burns wrote on Thu, 24 May 2012 06:29 |
The Murray had spacers installed when I got it, so I don't know how well it drove without them. It was a two-hand steer though.
After changing everything in the front end, including the steering wheel... the one-ton finally made it a pleasure to drive, and great brakes to boot!
My opinion for anyone contemplating spacers is to put that money in your one-ton cookie jar and you'll be $400 closer to the one-ton upgrade.
JWID
Bruce
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I need someone to measure what is going on with my coach.
Now that it is dialed in, I sometimes think I am wasting my time in that left seat. For as much attention as it takes to keep the coach in the lane, I could be catching up on my e-mail.
I'm actually not joking by that much. I would really like to know how it is set up now so that if something happens, I can get it back.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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