| E-15 is coming [message #165811] |
Mon, 09 April 2012 07:59  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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This morning I read the announcement that the EPA has approved E-15 as fuel for vehicles 2001 and newer. It is fortunately only approved for those vehicles and pumps dispensing E-15 are supposed to be clearly marked as such. We should be able to avoid it when fueling coaches.
This is going to be interesting. It will be a bigger mess than anyone can imagine. The report from the Automobile Manufactures Association was pretty clear that even most 2001 and newer vehicles not certified as Flex-Fuel will have trouble with E-15. The saving grace is that this will take some time to implement. This is not a clean-air issue. It is driven by the renewable fuels legislation.
With the subsidy for ethanol gone, it is now (even at the current price level) more expensive than petroleum fuel. That is why on the recent run to Shawnee, I found many places where the alcohol content was five or less. (Yes, this level of determination is possible with a modification of the KenB analysis.)
There is this, "Corn ethanol is extremely dirty," Michal Rosenoer, biofuels manager for Friends of the Earth, said in heralding the tax credit's demise. "It leads to more climate pollution than conventional gasoline, and it causes deforestation as well as agricultural runoff that pollutes our water."
Links:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/unelected_epa_bureaucrats_approve_e15_ethanol.html
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/29/9804028-6-billion-a-year-ethanol-subsidy-dies-but-wait-theres-more
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: E-15 is coming [message #165856 is a reply to message #165811] |
Mon, 09 April 2012 19:21  |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Darn! Just when I was happy to find that I could get ethanol-free fuel up by our cottage in Wisconsin! It seems that pretty soon there will be a whole smorgasbord of nozzles at the gasoline station.
ah, for the old days of regular or ethyl!
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: E-15 is coming [message #165864 is a reply to message #165811] |
Mon, 09 April 2012 20:54 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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The low E fuels make no sense to me in terms of efficiency it is a no gain situation. E85 actually does make sense to me in terms of efficiency as the the computer on a flex fuel vehicle can take adavantage of the E85 and run more timing for better efficiency, cleaner running engine that requires less frequent oil changes. I did the E85 lauch for GM at the Chicago auto show a few years back and there between rehearsals and relaoding of the popcorn for the waterfall in the set for the reviel, got to chat with a guy that was with GM Historical and shared old GMC MH stories from the old days where the execs would be shuttled around in them etc. E85 was pushed to be the next big thing but now with little infastructure it's hard to even find. I say take the E out of gas, take taxes off the E85 and the infastructure will grow with demand as we lessen our gasoline usage. All that R and D and extra cost to make vehicles Flex fuel and then most people never use E85.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: E-15 is coming [message #165866 is a reply to message #165864] |
Mon, 09 April 2012 21:37 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 09 April 2012 19:54 |
The low E fuels make no sense to me in terms of efficiency it is a no gain situation. E85 actually does make sense to me in terms of efficiency as the the computer on a flex fuel vehicle can take adavantage of the E85 and run more timing for better efficiency, cleaner running engine that requires less frequent oil changes. I did the E85 lauch for GM at the Chicago auto show a few years back and there between rehearsals and relaoding of the popcorn for the waterfall in the set for the reviel, got to chat with a guy that was with GM Historical and shared old GMC MH stories from the old days where the execs would be shuttled around in them etc. E85 was pushed to be the next big thing but now with little infastructure it's hard to even find. I say take the E out of gas, take taxes off the E85 and the infastructure will grow with demand as we lessen our gasoline usage. All that R and D and extra cost to make vehicles Flex fuel and then most people never use E85.
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I have an E85 minivan and the price still does not offset the reduced fuel economy--about 20% less unfortunately. You really need to be able to increase the compression ratio or turbo it to break even.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: E-15 is coming [message #165916 is a reply to message #165892] |
Tue, 10 April 2012 10:52 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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| Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 10 April 2012 07:27 |
This is where so many of the "great" ideas from politicians and bureaucrats fall apart. Somehow the fact that less energy in a fuel means less distance traveled is never considered. They also seem to think that the "green" factor will cover any extra cost. That is a good plan if you aren't spending your own money. The rest of us just can't afford to think that way most of the time.
The sunset of the ethanol subsidy is going to have some interesting repercussions. I do know people that say they buy E-85 (they say - know other). When the E-85 price gets above E-10 or petro only, we will see what happens.
Matt
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I don't remember seeing much of any good ideas coming from the government, quite the contrary usually.
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: E-15 is coming [message #165922 is a reply to message #165811] |
Tue, 10 April 2012 11:45 |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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Matt: I just got a new Toyota Camry Hybrid, 2012, and the manual states specifically NOT to use any gas with an Alcohol content greater then 10%. Very specific on that, no 15% etc. So, is the industry going to be responsible for any damage to my vehicle if mis fueled? Shees, what a mess they have created.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] E-15 is coming [message #165972 is a reply to message #165935] |
Tue, 10 April 2012 18:01 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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It is easy to imagine - or model. Political expediency trumps reality in most cases. Why that's so isn't a subject for this forum. Empirically though, that's so.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] E-15 is coming
idrob wrote on Tue, 10 April 2012 12:45
> Matt: I just got a new Toyota Camry Hybrid, 2012, and the manual states specifically NOT to use any gas with an Alcohol content greater then 10%. Very specific on that, no 15% etc. So, is the industry going to be responsible for any damage to my vehicle if mis fueled? Shees, what a mess they have created.
5h1t man - I don't know!!
I had just finished reading the testimony from the auto makers that they could not say how much damage the E-15 would do - They were sure it would not be good and in many cases would be an expensive fix.
How anybody could read all that and go on with the plan is not something I can even imagine.
I suggest that you get Toyota on the phone because some states are talking about fines for using E-10 in a newer vehicle.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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