Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III
| [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #165636] |
Sat, 07 April 2012 10:11  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Being as how the "Reviving the Cad 500" thread has gotten so long (don't I
know it!!!), it seems appropriate to split it. That should have happened
with "Act II", but they're now so melded it's not possible. Thus, "... Act
III" -- hopefully the LAST one.
As previously reported, on Wednesday, at the Pull-a-Part in Montgomery, AL,
Bill Hutchinson (who lives in Mont.), John Nicholls, and Fred Veenschoten
(who bolh live in NW FL), and I pulled a complete Cad500 from a '72
Eldorado. Only took us 8 hours! Seems I forgot that I'd given my axle nut
socket to my son when I installed the 1-Ton front suspension so having the
3/4" pull handle along didn't help much. That made it seem unlikely we
could pull the transmission with the engine, so we didn't try. Lots of
interference, such as between the engine oil pan and the final drive
ensued. I also didn't take along the "starter wrench" needed to remove the
"don't ever install it" bolt between the FD and transmission, so we
couldn't clear that obstacle. All in all, a rather trying day for everyone
-- but a lot of fun working with good friends on a beautiful day. Most of
them had sense enough to wear hats, so they didn't go home wearing beets on
their shoulders like I did.
Yesterday, on the way to our daughter's home in Stockbridge, GA, SHE and I
stopped in Riverdale, GA (both Atlanta suburbs) and picked up the Cad 500
parts Dave Mumert found for me in Alberta, BC. (Don't make much sense, do
it?) I essentially paid $50 for an old rusty crankshaft. It''s
undoubtedly recoverable despite heavy surface rust -- perhaps even without
turning. The engine had been laying on a dirty concrete floor for a long
time and some parts were at another, no longer accessible, location. So
I'm missing all of the valve train except for the rusty camshaft. I may
not even have the main bearing caps. But the crank's worth more than the
$50.
Monday I'll separate the engine from the transmission and begin the
teardown of either the old engine or the Pull-a-Part one.
Ken H.
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #165643 is a reply to message #165636] |
Sat, 07 April 2012 10:31  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Ken,
Hope this time you have solved the problem that caused the abnormal wear.
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Being as how the "Reviving the Cad 500" thread has gotten so long (don't I
> know it!!!), it seems appropriate to split it. Â That should have happened
> with "Act II", but they're now so melded it's not possible. Â Thus, "... Act
> III" -- hopefully the LAST one.
>
> As previously reported, on Wednesday, at the Pull-a-Part in Montgomery, AL,
> Bill Hutchinson (who lives in Mont.), John Nicholls, and Fred Veenschoten
> (who bolh live in NW FL), and I pulled a complete Cad500 from a '72
> Eldorado. Â Only took us 8 hours! Â Seems I forgot that I'd given my axle nut
> socket to my son when I installed the 1-Ton front suspension so having the
> 3/4" pull handle along didn't help much. Â That made it seem unlikely we
> could pull the transmission with the engine, so we didn't try. Â Lots of
> interference, such as between the engine oil pan and the final drive
> ensued. Â I also didn't take along the "starter wrench" needed to remove the
> "don't ever install it" bolt between the FD and transmission, so we
> couldn't clear that obstacle. Â All in all, a rather trying day for everyone
> -- but a lot of fun working with good friends on a beautiful day. Â Most of
> them had sense enough to wear hats, so they didn't go home wearing beets on
> their shoulders like I did.
>
> Yesterday, on the way to our daughter's home in Stockbridge, GA, SHE and I
> stopped in Riverdale, GA (both Atlanta suburbs) and picked up the Cad 500
> parts Dave Mumert found for me in Alberta, BC. Â (Don't make much sense, do
> it?) Â I essentially paid $50 for an old rusty crankshaft. Â It''s
> undoubtedly recoverable despite heavy surface rust -- perhaps even without
> turning. Â The engine had been laying on a dirty concrete floor for a long
> time and some parts were at another, no longer accessible, location. Â So
> I'm missing all of the valve train except for the rusty camshaft. Â I may
> not even have the main bearing caps. Â But the crank's worth more than the
> $50.
>
> Monday I'll separate the engine from the transmission and begin the
> teardown of either the old engine or the Pull-a-Part one.
>
> Ken H.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #165644 is a reply to message #165636] |
Sat, 07 April 2012 10:34 |
rssbob
Messages: 259
Registered: January 2004
Location: La Mesa, Ca. (San Diego a...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I want to be the first to wish you a successful final act. My gut turned over a couple times as I followed the first 2. Many a motorhomer would have pushed it off a cliff with what you have gone through. I commend you with the stick-to-it-tiveness to keep putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward.
On Apr 7, 2012, at 8:11 AM, Ken Henderson wrote:
> Being as how the "Reviving the Cad 500" thread has gotten so long (don't I
> know it!!!), it seems appropriate to split it. That should have happened
> with "Act II", but they're now so melded it's not possible. Thus, "... Act
> III" -- hopefully the LAST one.
>
> As previously reported, on Wednesday, at the Pull-a-Part in Montgomery, AL,
> Bill Hutchinson (who lives in Mont.), John Nicholls, and Fred Veenschoten
> (who bolh live in NW FL), and I pulled a complete Cad500 from a '72
> Eldorado. Only took us 8 hours! Seems I forgot that I'd given my axle nut
> socket to my son when I installed the 1-Ton front suspension so having the
> 3/4" pull handle along didn't help much. That made it seem unlikely we
> could pull the transmission with the engine, so we didn't try. Lots of
> interference, such as between the engine oil pan and the final drive
> ensued. I also didn't take along the "starter wrench" needed to remove the
> "don't ever install it" bolt between the FD and transmission, so we
> couldn't clear that obstacle. All in all, a rather trying day for everyone
> -- but a lot of fun working with good friends on a beautiful day. Most of
> them had sense enough to wear hats, so they didn't go home wearing beets on
> their shoulders like I did.
>
> Yesterday, on the way to our daughter's home in Stockbridge, GA, SHE and I
> stopped in Riverdale, GA (both Atlanta suburbs) and picked up the Cad 500
> parts Dave Mumert found for me in Alberta, BC. (Don't make much sense, do
> it?) I essentially paid $50 for an old rusty crankshaft. It''s
> undoubtedly recoverable despite heavy surface rust -- perhaps even without
> turning. The engine had been laying on a dirty concrete floor for a long
> time and some parts were at another, no longer accessible, location. So
> I'm missing all of the valve train except for the rusty camshaft. I may
> not even have the main bearing caps. But the crank's worth more than the
> $50.
>
> Monday I'll separate the engine from the transmission and begin the
> teardown of either the old engine or the Pull-a-Part one.
>
> Ken H.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Bob Sobrito
78 Palm Beach
La Mesa, Ca
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166058 is a reply to message #165644] |
Wed, 11 April 2012 18:04 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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My engine man was very pleased with the crankshaft from the $50 Cad 500.
He suggested protecting the journals with tape and taking it to a local
shop which can bead blast the rust from the rest of it. Then we'll use his
crank polisher to rid the journals of rust. He's convinced it will clean
up nicely. Chances are that's the crank I'll put in the twice-failed
engine.
Yesterday and today I disassembled the Pull-a-Part Cad 500. As we've so
often heard, I could have run it "as is". Almost, anyway. Internally,
it's beautiful. I haven't checked bearing clearances, but from their
appearance, I'm sure they'll be in-spec, as disassembled. End play was
0.0055". The cylinder walls had NO top ridge! After I ran a single-edged
razor blade, laid flat, around the top of each cylinder, I couldn't feel
any transition with a fingernail.
There was a little bit of ail leakage into 3 cylinders past the "turkey
tray" intake manifold gasket, but not much. The only sign of real wear was
the timing chain: The cam sprocket was aluminum and very badly worn,
leaving the chain so loose that it was definitely in danger of skipping a
tooth. I'd guess that the odometer's 31,000+ mile reading was actually
231,000+
Why did it take me two days to disassemble the engine? The same reason I
STILL don't have the exhaust manifolds off of the heads -- EVERYTHING not
bathed in oil was rusted solid. The only accessory that showed any
evidence of having been touched with a wrench in 40 years was the fuel
pump. It had been replaced (and augmented with an electric pump). After
much penetrating oil and strenuous use of a pipe wrench, the distributor
finally rotated about 20*; a long brass drift through the oil pump mount
then allowed me to drive it free of the blockt. I had to use my 3' pipe
extension on the 1/2" socket handle to break loose about half of the
exposed head bolts. 3 of the exhaust manifold bolts broke. 3 came out.
The others are so rusted away that SAE sockets won't fit. And they give
every indication that the better-fitting metric sockets will only allow me
to break the bolts. They're all soaking in penetrating oil; maybe some day
they'll come apart. I hope so, because the left one was welded, in place,
apparently by a carpenter. I guess the remaining 1/4" hole was left so the
driver could tell when the engine was running.
Despite my determination to never R&R the GMC engine again, I'll probably
restore this engine rather than cannibalizing it for the installed one.
Ken H.
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166080 is a reply to message #166058] |
Wed, 11 April 2012 22:25 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Metric sockets are the best choice for the rusty bolt heads. If
you remove
the outer rod of head bolts, you'll find that half the manifold
bolts are
drilled into the head bolt holes. But the still break off. I
tried beating the
snot out of them with a hammer, but some of them still broke. I
decided
to heli-coil all those holes and wore out three heli-coil taps
on two heads.
Plus sharpening the drill bit many times. Caddy heads are tough.
Next time I think I'll use the mill to take out the broken bolts.
Gary Kosier
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Henderson" <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III
> My engine man was very pleased with the crankshaft from the $50
> Cad 500.
> He suggested protecting the journals with tape and taking it to
> a local
> shop which can bead blast the rust from the rest of it. Then
> we'll use his
> crank polisher to rid the journals of rust. He's convinced it
> will clean
> up nicely. Chances are that's the crank I'll put in the
> twice-failed
> engine.
>
> Yesterday and today I disassembled the Pull-a-Part Cad 500. As
> we've so
> often heard, I could have run it "as is". Almost, anyway.
> Internally,
> it's beautiful. I haven't checked bearing clearances, but from
> their
> appearance, I'm sure they'll be in-spec, as disassembled. End
> play was
> 0.0055". The cylinder walls had NO top ridge! After I ran a
> single-edged
> razor blade, laid flat, around the top of each cylinder, I
> couldn't feel
> any transition with a fingernail.
>
> There was a little bit of ail leakage into 3 cylinders past the
> "turkey
> tray" intake manifold gasket, but not much. The only sign of
> real wear was
> the timing chain: The cam sprocket was aluminum and very badly
> worn,
> leaving the chain so loose that it was definitely in danger of
> skipping a
> tooth. I'd guess that the odometer's 31,000+ mile reading was
> actually
> 231,000+
>
> Why did it take me two days to disassemble the engine? The
> same reason I
> STILL don't have the exhaust manifolds off of the heads --
> EVERYTHING not
> bathed in oil was rusted solid. The only accessory that showed
> any
> evidence of having been touched with a wrench in 40 years was
> the fuel
> pump. It had been replaced (and augmented with an electric
> pump). After
> much penetrating oil and strenuous use of a pipe wrench, the
> distributor
> finally rotated about 20*; a long brass drift through the oil
> pump mount
> then allowed me to drive it free of the blockt. I had to use
> my 3' pipe
> extension on the 1/2" socket handle to break loose about half
> of the
> exposed head bolts. 3 of the exhaust manifold bolts broke. 3
> came out.
> The others are so rusted away that SAE sockets won't fit. And
> they give
> every indication that the better-fitting metric sockets will
> only allow me
> to break the bolts. They're all soaking in penetrating oil;
> maybe some day
> they'll come apart. I hope so, because the left one was
> welded, in place,
> apparently by a carpenter. I guess the remaining 1/4" hole was
> left so the
> driver could tell when the engine was running.
>
> Despite my determination to never R&R the GMC engine again,
> I'll probably
> restore this engine rather than cannibalizing it for the
> installed one.
>
> Ken H.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166081 is a reply to message #166058] |
Wed, 11 April 2012 22:26 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I've read this time and time again about Caddy 500's; "The cylinder walls
had NO top ridge! After I ran a single-edged razor blade, laid flat, around
the top of each cylinder, I couldn't feel any transition with a fingernail."
This is due to the extremely high nickel content in the cast iron.
I remember reading somewhere that the Caddy 500 weighs something lik3 150
pounds more than a small block Chevy.
Regards,
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
My engine man was very pleased with the crankshaft from the $50 Cad 500.
He suggested protecting the journals with tape and taking it to a local
shop which can bead blast the rust from the rest of it. Then we'll use his
crank polisher to rid the journals of rust. He's convinced it will clean
up nicely. Chances are that's the crank I'll put in the twice-failed
engine.
Yesterday and today I disassembled the Pull-a-Part Cad 500. As we've so
often heard, I could have run it "as is". Almost, anyway. Internally,
it's beautiful. I haven't checked bearing clearances, but from their
appearance, I'm sure they'll be in-spec, as disassembled. End play was
0.0055". The cylinder walls had NO top ridge! After I ran a single-edged
razor blade, laid flat, around the top of each cylinder, I couldn't feel
any transition with a fingernail.
There was a little bit of ail leakage into 3 cylinders past the "turkey
tray" intake manifold gasket, but not much. The only sign of real wear was
the timing chain: The cam sprocket was aluminum and very badly worn,
leaving the chain so loose that it was definitely in danger of skipping a
tooth. I'd guess that the odometer's 31,000+ mile reading was actually
231,000+
Why did it take me two days to disassemble the engine? The same reason I
STILL don't have the exhaust manifolds off of the heads -- EVERYTHING not
bathed in oil was rusted solid. The only accessory that showed any
evidence of having been touched with a wrench in 40 years was the fuel
pump. It had been replaced (and augmented with an electric pump). After
much penetrating oil and strenuous use of a pipe wrench, the distributor
finally rotated about 20*; a long brass drift through the oil pump mount
then allowed me to drive it free of the blockt. I had to use my 3' pipe
extension on the 1/2" socket handle to break loose about half of the
exposed head bolts. 3 of the exhaust manifold bolts broke. 3 came out.
The others are so rusted away that SAE sockets won't fit. And they give
every indication that the better-fitting metric sockets will only allow me
to break the bolts. They're all soaking in penetrating oil; maybe some day
they'll come apart. I hope so, because the left one was welded, in place,
apparently by a carpenter. I guess the remaining 1/4" hole was left so the
driver could tell when the engine was running.
Despite my determination to never R&R the GMC engine again, I'll probably
restore this engine rather than cannibalizing it for the installed one.
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166095 is a reply to message #166080] |
Thu, 12 April 2012 07:49 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gary,
I've got mixed feelings about which way to go from here:
The engine that I've been running has new pistons with honed cylinders, new
cam with lifters, and the heads were completely rebuilt. I did all the
little tricks you told me about to oil passages, etc. So, aside from
disassembly, re-tanking, and reassembly with rings, bearings, and one of
the "new" cranks, it will require little work. But, because of the crank
replacement (using either the Pull-a-Part or "rusty" one), we'll have to
rebalance it.
On the other hand, this Pull-a-Part engine is really nice inside, even
having NO carbon buildup in the combustion chambers. I'm tempted clean it
up and use it, including the pistons, cam, valves, etc., just doing the
little tricks to the block. Certainly I'll have the valves ground and
install all new rings and bearings. Certainly I'll just have a "freshened"
rather than "rebuilt" engine, but it will be near-factory condition and
won't need re-balancing. BIG down side is having all those manifold bolts
to, probably, drill & tap. Even some of the head bolts may need attention
because they came out with barely visible threads, I think just from crud
accumulated passing through the heads, but I didn't clean them to be sure.
What's your inclination?
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Kosier <gkosier@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Metric sockets are the best choice for the rusty bolt heads. If
> you remove
> the outer rod of head bolts, you'll find that half the manifold
> bolts are
> drilled into the head bolt holes. But the still break off. I
> tried beating the
> snot out of them with a hammer, but some of them still broke. I
> decided
> to heli-coil all those holes and wore out three heli-coil taps
> on two heads.
> Plus sharpening the drill bit many times. Caddy heads are tough.
> Next time I think I'll use the mill to take out the broken bolts.
>
> Gary Kosier
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Henderson" <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III
>
>
> > My engine man was very pleased with the crankshaft from the $50
> > Cad 500.
> > He suggested protecting the journals with tape and taking it to
> > a local
> > shop which can bead blast the rust from the rest of it. Then
> > we'll use his
> > crank polisher to rid the journals of rust. He's convinced it
> > will clean
> > up nicely. Chances are that's the crank I'll put in the
> > twice-failed
> > engine.
> >
> > Yesterday and today I disassembled the Pull-a-Part Cad 500. As
> > we've so
> > often heard, I could have run it "as is". Almost, anyway.
> > Internally,
> > it's beautiful. I haven't checked bearing clearances, but from
> > their
> > appearance, I'm sure they'll be in-spec, as disassembled. End
> > play was
> > 0.0055". The cylinder walls had NO top ridge! After I ran a
> > single-edged
> > razor blade, laid flat, around the top of each cylinder, I
> > couldn't feel
> > any transition with a fingernail.
> >
> > There was a little bit of ail leakage into 3 cylinders past the
> > "turkey
> > tray" intake manifold gasket, but not much. The only sign of
> > real wear was
> > the timing chain: The cam sprocket was aluminum and very badly
> > worn,
> > leaving the chain so loose that it was definitely in danger of
> > skipping a
> > tooth. I'd guess that the odometer's 31,000+ mile reading was
> > actually
> > 231,000+
> >
> > Why did it take me two days to disassemble the engine? The
> > same reason I
> > STILL don't have the exhaust manifolds off of the heads --
> > EVERYTHING not
> > bathed in oil was rusted solid. The only accessory that showed
> > any
> > evidence of having been touched with a wrench in 40 years was
> > the fuel
> > pump. It had been replaced (and augmented with an electric
> > pump). After
> > much penetrating oil and strenuous use of a pipe wrench, the
> > distributor
> > finally rotated about 20*; a long brass drift through the oil
> > pump mount
> > then allowed me to drive it free of the blockt. I had to use
> > my 3' pipe
> > extension on the 1/2" socket handle to break loose about half
> > of the
> > exposed head bolts. 3 of the exhaust manifold bolts broke. 3
> > came out.
> > The others are so rusted away that SAE sockets won't fit. And
> > they give
> > every indication that the better-fitting metric sockets will
> > only allow me
> > to break the bolts. They're all soaking in penetrating oil;
> > maybe some day
> > they'll come apart. I hope so, because the left one was
> > welded, in place,
> > apparently by a carpenter. I guess the remaining 1/4" hole was
> > left so the
> > driver could tell when the engine was running.
> >
> > Despite my determination to never R&R the GMC engine again,
> > I'll probably
> > restore this engine rather than cannibalizing it for the
> > installed one.
> >
> > Ken H.
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166103 is a reply to message #166095] |
Thu, 12 April 2012 08:46 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 12 April 2012 08:49 |
Gary,
I've got mixed feelings about which way to go from here:
<snip>
BIG down side is having all those manifold bolts to, probably, drill & tap. Even some of the head bolts may need attention
because they came out with barely visible threads, I think just from crud accumulated passing through the heads, but I didn't clean them to be sure.
What's your inclination?
Ken H.
|
Ken,
As much as you hate to give up on the nearly good engine you have, you can make short work of the broken fasteners if you can find someone locally with a "Tap Disintegrator". This is an EDM that is designed and built just to get very hard things out of valuable holes. They are not at all uncommon, but finding one that you can get time on may be a trick.
As to the head bolt holes, take any version of the correct tap and cut the lead angle off the edges so it won't remove metal, then chase the threads and look at them again.
The Olds and Caddie blocks of that period (before forced homologation) were cast in a separate foundry from CPC and they literally did use better iron than the others.
I am not at all sure what I would do in you place. You still don't actually know what killed the thrust bearing - Do You?
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166110 is a reply to message #166103] |
Thu, 12 April 2012 09:07 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I used to bring "G" jobs to Ken Thoma at the Johnson Space Center Nasa
Machine shop and get him to use the "Elox Machine" (I think that's what he
called it) to get broken bolts out of motorcycle or car parts. He never
refused me although I think he'd cringe whenever he saw me.
This was between 1969 and 1978 when I was based there with Hamilton
Standard.
I was not into motorhomes and even if I was I couldn't have afforded a GMC,
my house cost me $27,000 and paying for it on an $8,000 a year salary wasn't
easy!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Ken,
As much as you hate to give up on the nearly good engine you have, you can
make short work of the broken fasteners if you can find someone locally with
a "Tap Disintegrator". This is an EDM that is designed and built just to
get very hard things out of valuable holes. They are not at all uncommon,
but finding one that you can get time on may be a trick.
As to the head bolt holes, take any version of the correct tap and cut the
lead angle off the edges so it won't remove metal, then chase the threads
and look at them again.
The Olds and Caddie blocks of that period (before forced homologation) were
cast in a separate foundry from CPC and they literally did use better iron
than the others.
I am not at all sure what I would do in you place. You still don't actually
know what killed the thrust bearing - Do You?
Matt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166183 is a reply to message #166095] |
Thu, 12 April 2012 21:36 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
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Ken,
I have to say, I kinda' like the idea of replacing the engine in
it's entirety.
Since you're replacing the trans & converter, that would
eliminate any
possibility of the problem reoccurring. Then you could build the
first
engine back up and maybe run it on a test stand. It's such a big
job to
R & R the engine in the coach, I'd want to avoid any possibility
of another
failure in the coach. I guess I'm getting cautious in my old
age.
Gary Kosier
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Henderson" <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III
> Gary,
>
> I've got mixed feelings about which way to go from here:
>
> The engine that I've been running has new pistons with honed
> cylinders, new
> cam with lifters, and the heads were completely rebuilt. I did
> all the
> little tricks you told me about to oil passages, etc. So,
> aside from
> disassembly, re-tanking, and reassembly with rings, bearings,
> and one of
> the "new" cranks, it will require little work. But, because of
> the crank
> replacement (using either the Pull-a-Part or "rusty" one),
> we'll have to
> rebalance it.
>
> On the other hand, this Pull-a-Part engine is really nice
> inside, even
> having NO carbon buildup in the combustion chambers. I'm
> tempted clean it
> up and use it, including the pistons, cam, valves, etc., just
> doing the
> little tricks to the block. Certainly I'll have the valves
> ground and
> install all new rings and bearings. Certainly I'll just have a
> "freshened"
> rather than "rebuilt" engine, but it will be near-factory
> condition and
> won't need re-balancing. BIG down side is having all those
> manifold bolts
> to, probably, drill & tap. Even some of the head bolts may
> need attention
> because they came out with barely visible threads, I think just
> from crud
> accumulated passing through the heads, but I didn't clean them
> to be sure.
>
> What's your inclination?
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Kosier
> <gkosier@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>> Ken,
>>
>> Metric sockets are the best choice for the rusty bolt heads.
>> If
>> you remove
>> the outer rod of head bolts, you'll find that half the
>> manifold
>> bolts are
>> drilled into the head bolt holes. But the still break off. I
>> tried beating the
>> snot out of them with a hammer, but some of them still broke.
>> I
>> decided
>> to heli-coil all those holes and wore out three heli-coil
>> taps
>> on two heads.
>> Plus sharpening the drill bit many times. Caddy heads are
>> tough.
>> Next time I think I'll use the mill to take out the broken
>> bolts.
>>
>> Gary Kosier
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Henderson" <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
>> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III
>>
>>
>> > My engine man was very pleased with the crankshaft from the
>> > $50
>> > Cad 500.
>> > He suggested protecting the journals with tape and taking it
>> > to
>> > a local
>> > shop which can bead blast the rust from the rest of it.
>> > Then
>> > we'll use his
>> > crank polisher to rid the journals of rust. He's convinced
>> > it
>> > will clean
>> > up nicely. Chances are that's the crank I'll put in the
>> > twice-failed
>> > engine.
>> >
>> > Yesterday and today I disassembled the Pull-a-Part Cad 500.
>> > As
>> > we've so
>> > often heard, I could have run it "as is". Almost, anyway.
>> > Internally,
>> > it's beautiful. I haven't checked bearing clearances, but
>> > from
>> > their
>> > appearance, I'm sure they'll be in-spec, as disassembled.
>> > End
>> > play was
>> > 0.0055". The cylinder walls had NO top ridge! After I ran
>> > a
>> > single-edged
>> > razor blade, laid flat, around the top of each cylinder, I
>> > couldn't feel
>> > any transition with a fingernail.
>> >
>> > There was a little bit of ail leakage into 3 cylinders past
>> > the
>> > "turkey
>> > tray" intake manifold gasket, but not much. The only sign
>> > of
>> > real wear was
>> > the timing chain: The cam sprocket was aluminum and very
>> > badly
>> > worn,
>> > leaving the chain so loose that it was definitely in danger
>> > of
>> > skipping a
>> > tooth. I'd guess that the odometer's 31,000+ mile reading
>> > was
>> > actually
>> > 231,000+
>> >
>> > Why did it take me two days to disassemble the engine? The
>> > same reason I
>> > STILL don't have the exhaust manifolds off of the heads --
>> > EVERYTHING not
>> > bathed in oil was rusted solid. The only accessory that
>> > showed
>> > any
>> > evidence of having been touched with a wrench in 40 years
>> > was
>> > the fuel
>> > pump. It had been replaced (and augmented with an electric
>> > pump). After
>> > much penetrating oil and strenuous use of a pipe wrench, the
>> > distributor
>> > finally rotated about 20*; a long brass drift through the
>> > oil
>> > pump mount
>> > then allowed me to drive it free of the blockt. I had to
>> > use
>> > my 3' pipe
>> > extension on the 1/2" socket handle to break loose about
>> > half
>> > of the
>> > exposed head bolts. 3 of the exhaust manifold bolts broke.
>> > 3
>> > came out.
>> > The others are so rusted away that SAE sockets won't fit.
>> > And
>> > they give
>> > every indication that the better-fitting metric sockets will
>> > only allow me
>> > to break the bolts. They're all soaking in penetrating oil;
>> > maybe some day
>> > they'll come apart. I hope so, because the left one was
>> > welded, in place,
>> > apparently by a carpenter. I guess the remaining 1/4" hole
>> > was
>> > left so the
>> > driver could tell when the engine was running.
>> >
>> > Despite my determination to never R&R the GMC engine again,
>> > I'll probably
>> > restore this engine rather than cannibalizing it for the
>> > installed one.
>> >
>> > Ken H.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > GMCnet mailing list
>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166197 is a reply to message #166183] |
Thu, 12 April 2012 23:07 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gary,
There you go -- trying to talk me into hooking the engine to the torque
converter to the transmission and running it 'til it quits again -- with
instrumentation, of course. :-)
Ken H.
PS: I'm TOO old that that kinds fun stuff! Sounds like trying to become
another Matt C. KH
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Kosier wrote:
> Ken,
> ... Then you could build the first engine back up and maybe run it on a
> test stand...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166363 is a reply to message #166103] |
Sat, 14 April 2012 23:18 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
""The Olds and Caddie blocks of that period (before forced homologation) were cast in a separate foundry from CPC and they literally did use better iron than the others.
""
Matt, I got a kick out of that one--what would that be all about?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166374 is a reply to message #166363] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 06:03 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sun, 15 April 2012 00:18 |
""The Olds and Caddie blocks of that period (before forced homologation) were cast in a separate foundry from CPC and they literally did use better iron than the others.
""
Matt, I got a kick out of that one--what would that be all about?
|
Bob,
I kind of though you would have known about that. When CPC was doing all their casting at Central in Flint and St. Catherines, Olds and Caddie (at least) had a separate operation.
This was long before GM homologation - everybody had to use the same engine - I'm sure you remember the irate owners that discovered that their brand new Oldsmobile had a stinking small block Chevy engine.
When we were doing a bunch of work for Olds (Lansing). Very similar to work we had done for CPC (WTC). This included instrumenting blocks with thermocouples and straingages. Lots of deep small holes had to get drilled into major castings. My machining guy was about to take a vacation until the job was done. He had a miserable time drilling the Chevy blocks and wanted no part of the second act.
He didn't make it out as he had hoped. He got stuck drilling the first set of bearing webs - an 0.125 hole from just above the pan rail to the main bearing - he came barreling into my office and was about half way through his rant when he noticed I wasn't alone.... The client was sitting in the chair he would typically crash land in. After I introduced him and they got to talking, Jameson(?) explained the the reason the Chevy blocks had been such a bear to drill was that the iron was chosen for cost and minimum specification but, the Oldsmobile specification was different to get better bore and deck finish and it also provided better wear resistance at the bore surface.
This wasn't my problem and I gave it no more attention than that. He did tell us a lot about the specific differences, but I did not store that data thirty odd years ago, and even if I had, I'm not sure that what I recalled would be of any value.
Translations for non-autobiz folks:
BOC - Buick Oldsmobile Cadillac
CPC - Chevrolet Pontiac Canada
WTC - Warren (Mi) Technical Center - where most all CPC development is still done.
Central is Central Foundry in Flint - a sprawling plant that at one time poured all the castings for 3/4 of the CPC engine lines.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166397 is a reply to message #166374] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 09:19 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Matt--I was wrapped up in all of the unfortunate changing of the deck chairs during the sinking, but was never aware of the differing quality of the cast iron materials between various division's foundries.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166402 is a reply to message #166095] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 09:58 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
|
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 12 April 2012 05:49 |
Gary,
I've got mixed feelings about which way to go from here:
|
Ken,
I, like you, think it would be fun to use the new pulled engine. Once you get it back together, any chance you could get it on a stand and run it for about six hours? No load, just run the sucker to see how it acts. Get a laser temp gun and shoot the exhaust ports from time to time, watch oil pressure. You could run it with a carb. Just see how it acts.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166405 is a reply to message #165636] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 11:34 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
My 2 cents is since you DON'T know what keeps wiping the other engine, you need to change something in the scientific process whether engine, trans or both to get you back up and running. Put the other aside till the NTSB can decide what is causing the accident. Believe me we all are of the same ilk here and have to know WHY. I think most here had to take things apart as kids to see what made them tick. Don't want to see you go through this again. The nice clean failed engine can be readdressed after the dust settles. I do like the run in stand idea on the men's mall engine. Much easier than in coach surgery. Now---- when you send the heads out for the Valve job, can't they address the busted bolts for you while they are at it??? Another thought is who is equivlent to the Dr. Olds Mondello of the Caddy world? Is there someone that knows these engine's quirks better than this circle?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166407 is a reply to message #166405] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 12:04 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
John,
Manny's sending me a NOS TH-425 after he does his magic to it. Dick Lewis
at Midwestern Performance Converters is building me a low stall speed
converter. My NASCAR engine building friend will probably watch me closer
than ever as I reassemble the Pull-a-Part engine. Despite the difficulty
of R&R, I'm not willing to go to the trouble of building an engine stand to
test all that stuff. I'm going to gamble, AGAIN, that they'll all play
nicely. If the problem recurs, it will NOT be because of the same
component as before, 'cause that item will be on my shop floor!
Frankly, after talking to so many people, I've about convinced myself that
the torque converter is the culprit. It's the common denominator in the
two failure: Once shortly after it was installed and again immediately
after the engine was hooked back to it. The hub/crank interface was a
problem when I installed it. While I "corrected" that problem, maybe I
didn't correct it as well as I should have, according to facts I've
recently had pointed out to me: The TC hub needs to be able to move freely
in and out of the crankshaft recess when the TC housing expands and
contracts and/or the flex plate does its thing. While I removed enough
rust from the crank recess to allow me to install the TC at normal
temperatures, I did not ensure that there's enough clearance when the TC
reaches its not-unusual 250*F-300*F. I WILL this time. No guarantee
that's the source of the problems, but its about as good an explanation as
I've found.
We'll probably mount the heads on a milling machine at the engine shop and
use left-handed drill bits to pull the 4 broken studs in each of them.
That is if my welder can't burn them out as suggested by Carleton.
Jerry Potter, now retired, is probably THE Cad expert. But MTS and CadCo
are also good. I've talked to Marty at MTS. He says thrust bearing
failures are not common and that the TC or TH is responsible -- naturally.
:-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 12:34 PM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
>
>
> My 2 cents is since you DON'T know what keeps wiping the other engine, you
> need to change something in the scientific process whether engine, trans or
> both to get you back up and running. Put the other aside till the NTSB can
> decide what is causing the accident. Believe me we all are of the same ilk
> here and have to know WHY. I think most here had to take things apart as
> kids to see what made them tick. Don't want to see you go through this
> again. The nice clean failed engine can be readdressed after the dust
> settles. I do like the run in stand idea on the men's mall engine. Much
> easier than in coach surgery. Now---- when you send the heads out for the
> Valve job, can't they address the busted bolts for you while they are at
> it??? Another thought is who is equivlent to the Dr. Olds Mondello of the
> Caddy world? Is there someone that knows these engine's quirks better than
> this circle?
> --
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166408 is a reply to message #166402] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 12:08 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
George,
My engine guy's run stand is set up only for Chevy's. (Why in the world
did they not follow the BOPC interface spec???) I'm not willing to go to
the trouble of modifying it or building a new one for the limited assurance
it would give me to run the unloaded engine.
Heck, aside from the new rings & bearings, it will be the same as it's
already run for probably 231,000+ miles1
Ken H.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:58 AM, George Beckman wrote:
>
>
> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 12 April 2012 05:49
> > Gary,
> >
> > I've got mixed feelings about which way to go from here:
>
>
> Ken,
>
> I, like you, think it would be fun to use the new pulled engine. Once you
> get it back together, any chance you could get it on a stand and run it for
> about six hours? No load, just run the sucker to see how it acts. Get a
> laser temp gun and shoot the exhaust ports from time to time, watch oil
> pressure. You could run it with a carb. Just see how it acts.
> --
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
|
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III [message #166419 is a reply to message #166407] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 13:58 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I just had an awful thought - what are you gonna do if this setup eats the thrust bearing?
--johnny
'76 23' transmiode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Reviving the Cad 500, Act III
John,
Manny's sending me a NOS TH-425 after he does his magic to it. Dick Lewis
at Midwestern Performance Converters is building me a low stall speed
converter. My NASCAR engine building friend will probably watch me closer
than ever as I reassemble the Pull-a-Part engine. Despite the difficulty
of R&R, I'm not willing to go to the trouble of building an engine stand to
test all that stuff. I'm going to gamble, AGAIN, that they'll all play
nicely. If the problem recurs, it will NOT be because of the same
component as before, 'cause that item will be on my shop floor!
Frankly, after talking to so many people, I've about convinced myself that
the torque converter is the culprit. It's the common denominator in the
two failure: Once shortly after it was installed and again immediately
after the engine was hooked back to it. The hub/crank interface was a
problem when I installed it. While I "corrected" that problem, maybe I
didn't correct it as well as I should have, according to facts I've
recently had pointed out to me: The TC hub needs to be able to move freely
in and out of the crankshaft recess when the TC housing expands and
contracts and/or the flex plate does its thing. While I removed enough
rust from the crank recess to allow me to install the TC at normal
temperatures, I did not ensure that there's enough clearance when the TC
reaches its not-unusual 250*F-300*F. I WILL this time. No guarantee
that's the source of the problems, but its about as good an explanation as
I've found.
We'll probably mount the heads on a milling machine at the engine shop and
use left-handed drill bits to pull the 4 broken studs in each of them.
That is if my welder can't burn them out as suggested by Carleton.
Jerry Potter, now retired, is probably THE Cad expert. But MTS and CadCo
are also good. I've talked to Marty at MTS. He says thrust bearing
failures are not common and that the TC or TH is responsible -- naturally.
:-)
Ken H.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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