Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety
| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165319] |
Wed, 04 April 2012 11:37  |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
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Rob,
Yes, helium could be used for generator cooling, as a stirling engine working fluid, or in dirigibles. However, hydrogen has about half the molecular weight, so it is twice as "good" as a coolant. Half the windage loss in the generator. On the other hand it is only a little bit better than helium in a dirigible. Helium is twice as heavy as hydrogen, but hydrogen is only a little bit lighter than helium :-). Air has a molecular weight of 30, helium 4 and hydrogen 2. So the buoyancy(the difference between air and the gas in the balloon) of helium is 26 and that of hydrogen is 28. I read that Germany wanted to buy helium from us, but since we were mad at them we wouldn't sell it; that forced them to use hydrogen. Wouldn't have helped the Hindenberg as it would have burned anyway, but there would have been fewer people on board - or maybe no piano. As I understand it, most of the world's helium still comes from the U.S.
Gary
from Rob:
Gary,
Any idea why Helium wasn't used?
Regards,
Rob M.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165334 is a reply to message #165319] |
Wed, 04 April 2012 14:38  |
James Hupy
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Registered: May 2010
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At one time, the only producing Helium gas well was the one in Moab, Utah.
Clear out in the middle of nowhere. The rest of the helium is separated out
of air by air reduction companies, a much more expensive process.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rob,
> Yes, helium could be used for generator cooling, as a stirling engine
> working fluid, or in dirigibles. However, hydrogen has about half the
> molecular weight, so it is twice as "good" as a coolant. Half the windage
> loss in the generator. On the other hand it is only a little bit better
> than helium in a dirigible. Helium is twice as heavy as hydrogen, but
> hydrogen is only a little bit lighter than helium :-). Air has a molecular
> weight of 30, helium 4 and hydrogen 2. So the buoyancy(the difference
> between air and the gas in the balloon) of helium is 26 and that of
> hydrogen is 28. I read that Germany wanted to buy helium from us, but
> since we were mad at them we wouldn't sell it; that forced them to use
> hydrogen. Wouldn't have helped the Hindenberg as it would have burned
> anyway, but there would have been fewer people on board - or maybe no
> piano. As I understand it, most of the world's helium still comes from the
> U.S.
> Gary
>
> from Rob:
> Gary,
> Any idea why Helium wasn't used?
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165339 is a reply to message #165334] |
Wed, 04 April 2012 15:23 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
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The greatest US reserves of helium are in the natural gas fields
of SW Kansas and the panhandle areas of Oklahoma and Texas.
Amarillo, TX has a large complex where a pipeline originating at
Bushton, Kansas to transport "less than pure" helium for further
refinement and purification.
You can see the facility about a mile or so south of I-40 on the
west side of Amarillo. I think there may even be a "Helium Road"
exit. With a son who has been stationed in Albuquerque several
times during his 20 year USAF career and retired there, we make
several trips a year to see him, his wife, and three grandkids!
For additional info, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
_______________
*[ ]....[][ ][]\
*--OO---[]---O-*
> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:38:38 -0700
> From: jamesh1296@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety
>
> At one time, the only producing Helium gas well was the one in Moab, Utah.
> Clear out in the middle of nowhere. The rest of the helium is separated out
> of air by air reduction companies, a much more expensive process.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Rob,
> > Yes, helium could be used for generator cooling, as a stirling engine
> > working fluid, or in dirigibles. However, hydrogen has about half the
> > molecular weight, so it is twice as "good" as a coolant. Half the windage
> > loss in the generator. On the other hand it is only a little bit better
> > than helium in a dirigible. Helium is twice as heavy as hydrogen, but
> > hydrogen is only a little bit lighter than helium :-). Air has a molecular
> > weight of 30, helium 4 and hydrogen 2. So the buoyancy(the difference
> > between air and the gas in the balloon) of helium is 26 and that of
> > hydrogen is 28. I read that Germany wanted to buy helium from us, but
> > since we were mad at them we wouldn't sell it; that forced them to use
> > hydrogen. Wouldn't have helped the Hindenberg as it would have burned
> > anyway, but there would have been fewer people on board - or maybe no
> > piano. As I understand it, most of the world's helium still comes from the
> > U.S.
> > Gary
> >
> > from Rob:
> > Gary,
> > Any idea why Helium wasn't used?
> > Regards,
> > Rob M.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165390 is a reply to message #165319] |
Wed, 04 April 2012 21:10 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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I seem to remember that years ago, the helium reserve facility was being touted as a waste of government funds. I don't remember the Senator's name, but it made his list of government waste. Is there a commercial use of helium other than inflating balloons?
They are waiting for the return of airships?
No political views inferred, but I do wonder what they do with this supply?
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165393 is a reply to message #165390] |
Wed, 04 April 2012 21:31 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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"They" fill party balloons, breathe the helium, talk, sound funny and laugh!
:-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: George Rudawsky
I seem to remember that years ago, the helium reserve facility was being
touted as a waste of government funds. I don't remember the Senator's name,
but it made his list of government waste. Is there a commercial use of
helium other than inflating balloons?
They are waiting for the return of airships?
No political views inferred, but I do wonder what they do with this supply?
--
George
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165435 is a reply to message #165390] |
Thu, 05 April 2012 08:58 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| GeorgeRud wrote on Wed, 04 April 2012 22:10 |
I seem to remember that years ago, the helium reserve facility was being touted as a waste of government funds. I don't remember the Senator's name, but it made his list of government waste. Is there a commercial use of helium other than inflating balloons?
They are waiting for the return of airships?
No political views inferred, but I do wonder what they do with this supply?
|
George,
There are two immediate uses I know of, one is in the mix known as "Form Gas" and the other is a welding process called Heliarc.
Form gas is used in processing metals at high temperatures and for creating the conductor penetrations of glass envelopes. This is still required for some products even though electron tubes (aka fire bottles) are long out of favor. It is a mix of He with 5~10% H2 to reduce the metal surface. We used it to make tubes for HeNe lasers (also out of fashion).
Heliarc is actually at trade name for a family of TIG welding processes. Even with argon as a cover gas, the lower ionization potential of helium still makes it preferred for some types of high purity welding.
I, for one, cannot fathom why the government would retain a "strategic supply" of helium for lighter that air ships when there seems to be an unending supply of very hot air along the Potomac. And, we already pay dearly to maintain that.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165447 is a reply to message #165390] |
Thu, 05 April 2012 11:07 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| GeorgeRud wrote on Wed, 04 April 2012 19:10 |
... Is there a commercial use of helium other than inflating balloons?
...
|
While there are even more applications, It is used in almost all the different steps of semiconductor manufacture.
No "He", no micro-chips.
It is also used to find very small leaks in vacuum systems. (The smaller molecule will slip through cracks easier.)
Where I work, they haul helium in by the semi-tanker load.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165448 is a reply to message #165435] |
Thu, 05 April 2012 11:17 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
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an unending supply of very hot air along the Potomac. And, we already pay dearly to maintain that.
Matt
I worked at several locations in the company I was employed, and each location had a never ending supply of superheated HOT AIR that explosively released itself on a daily basis. Hot air was in PEAK supply....
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165515 is a reply to message #165509] |
Thu, 05 April 2012 22:22 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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That mission goes 'way back. In the '60's we took satellite recovery
JC-130's from Hawaii to Alaska periodically to recover the instrumentation
packages dropped from the balloons above 115,000 ft. MSL. Not from quite
as high as the satellites which were our primary mission, but the Atomic
Energy Commission seemed to appreciate the help. :-)
Ken H.
On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Hal Kading wrote:
>
>
> Helium is also used for hi-altitude research balloons. Both the USAF and
> NASA have programs in NM. The balloons can be as tall as 400 feet and go up
> to 120,000 feet. We used to contract with the AF to track the balloons and
> then locating the payload and balloon after it came down.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator/ hinderburg/ HHO safety [message #165693 is a reply to message #165509] |
Sat, 07 April 2012 19:43 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
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| Hal Kading wrote on Thu, 05 April 2012 22:12 |
Helium is also used for hi-altitude research balloons. Both the USAF and NASA have programs in NM. The balloons can be as tall as 400 feet and go up to 120,000 feet. We used to contract with the AF to track the balloons and then locating the payload and balloon after it came down.
Hal Kading 77 Kingsley 455 Las Cruces NM
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A friend of mine, Ruckster, used to do this stuff. She was based in Palestine TX and was the ballon electronics tech. They flew them from the SW, mostly NM, from Alaska, and from Antarctica.
I asked her if she remembered Hal. She did not but said "We flew out of Ft. Sumner, NM; Clovis Air force base is 60 miles away. We always called them for clearance, reports, etc; on the way up , and on the way down. And the big balloons: 8,000 lb payload, 1200 ft long, 400 foot around, 39 million cubic feet of helium!!"
A bit of non GMC content and also off topic but here goes: I have a "rule" that I only have Harley T-shirts for places, events or dealers I was at ON MY HARLEY. I have made an exception for two she got for me. One is a picture of an old Harley on the back with the phrase "Glide On Ice" on the front in the Harley shield is written "McMurdo Antarctic Station". The other is a shirt from the Christ-Church NZ Harley dealer.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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