Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158046 is a reply to message #158045] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 02:15   |
glacierfl
Messages: 444
Registered: June 2011
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Hello Rob,
Ummmm, so that seems like a bad idea then !!!!
What do you think about using the wrap around the exhaust system?. Do you think that would help keep the heat down in the fuel tanks, maybe help prevent burning the flooring also ????.
Considering a new exhaust system further down the road, and looking for ways to prevent heat related problems.
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
Monticello, FL
77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
EX G4WDT
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158048 is a reply to message #158046] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 02:34 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Steve,
I would not wrap any of the exhaust system.
If you look up under your 1977 GMC you will see aluminum sheeting. Under that is about 3/4 inches of Styrofoam, then the 3/4"
plywood floor. That will keep the floor from burning.
Early GMC's don't have the aluminum and Styrofoam and if the mufflers get hot they can burn a hole through the floor, Dan "Hotfoot"
Greg can attest to that fact.
Don't know who it was but someone came with a clever fix - screw a couple of cookie sheets to the bottom of the floor just above the
muffler and Bob's your Uncle (GMCnet Aussie slang lesson of the day), problem solved. You do not have to do that.
The other thing you can do is opt for these systems that have the mufflers down the back.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/667
or this stainless steel system, if you're feeling flush!:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/666
If your GMC doesn’t have these exhaust heat shields it's not a bad idea to install them:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/760
I am of the opinion that more heat enters the fuel tank reflected or radiated from the road surface than the exhaust system.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: steve & debbie
Hello Rob,
Ummmm, so that seems like a bad idea then !!!!
What do you think about using the wrap around the exhaust system?. Do you think that would help keep the heat down in the fuel
tanks, maybe help prevent burning the flooring also ????.
Considering a new exhaust system further down the road, and looking for ways to prevent heat related problems.
cheers and beers
--
Steve
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158069 is a reply to message #158041] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 09:21 |
RadioActiveGMC
Messages: 1020
Registered: November 2010
Location: Hot AZ desert
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Thats a really interesting subject. Not starting yet another argument. But if the goal is to get the heat out of the end of the exhaust why wouldn't wrapping the entire exhaust be a good idea? If it collects moisture why wouldn't the heat simply burn it off since the headers get so hot? I have two really close friends that all their vehicles are wrapped and they swear they have never had a issue.
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Onans smell, "Go solar/wind power!"
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158087 is a reply to message #158084] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 11:35 |
Dwayne
Messages: 418
Registered: October 2007
Location: White Rock BC
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I too thought that I could reduce the heat from the headers by wrapping
them. The guy selling the wrap was happy to sell it plus the stainless
steel clamps. Then I talked to a Hot Rodder - who knows his stuff - he
told me "Don't do it" so If you want to buy some wrap really cheap - I
have it sitting in my garage along with a number of other snake oil
gagets. I am on a sharp learning curve - now does that curve up or down??
Regards
Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock
77 Eleganza
69 Avanti II
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Dwayne & Sharon Jacobson
White Rock, BC
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158088 is a reply to message #158069] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 11:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Mr.RadioActive wrote on Thu, 26 January 2012 10:21 |
Thats a really interesting subject. Not starting yet another argument. But if the goal is to get the heat out of the end of the exhaust why wouldn't wrapping the entire exhaust be a good idea? If it collects moisture why wouldn't the heat simply burn it off since the headers get so hot? I have two really close friends that all their vehicles are wrapped and they swear they have never had a issue.
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Micheal,
There are two distinct issues with putting an insulating wrap on a tubular exhaust manifold.
The biggest problem with passcar applications is that the insulation will hold water against the tubing. Yes, exhaust will dry it out, but only with the engine running. If water gets splashed on it and then it gets to sit, or if the exterior gets well wetted and then the vehicle gets shut down, you have a situation where water will be where it is not wanted.
Another issue that there is no longer any air flow over the tubing to keep the metal temperature down. This means that the tubing will be much hotter where the exhaust impinges on the wall. There is a long list of problems that this can cause. Things like cracking, wrinkling, and warping just for starters.
Your friends that have never had a problem never tried to climb a long grade in second gear and probably never drove the vehicle in the rain.
Radiant heat shields are a much better idea.
In dynoland, wrapping a steel exhaust pipe could make it burn out in less than hours of test time. Just one of the reasons that they use a lot of SS tubing.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158093 is a reply to message #158088] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 13:08 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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What about ceramic coating??? I have heard that aside from cooler exterior temps that flow is increased due to the lack of heat loss through the wall of the pipe??
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:40:49
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS
Mr.RadioActive wrote on Thu, 26 January 2012 10:21
> Thats a really interesting subject. Not starting yet another argument. But if the goal is to get the heat out of the end of the exhaust why wouldn't wrapping the entire exhaust be a good idea? If it collects moisture why wouldn't the heat simply burn it off since the headers get so hot? I have two really close friends that all their vehicles are wrapped and they swear they have never had a issue.
Micheal,
There are two distinct issues with putting an insulating wrap on a tubular exhaust manifold.
The biggest problem with passcar applications is that the insulation will hold water against the tubing. Yes, exhaust will dry it out, but only with the engine running. If water gets splashed on it and then it gets to sit, or if the exterior gets well wetted and then the vehicle gets shut down, you have a situation where water will be where it is not wanted.
Another issue that there is no longer any air flow over the tubing to keep the metal temperature down. This means that the tubing will be much hotter where the exhaust impinges on the wall. There is a long list of problems that this can cause. Things like cracking, wrinkling, and warping just for starters.
Your friends that have never had a problem never tried to climb a long grade in second gear and probably never drove the vehicle in the rain.
Radiant heat shields are a much better idea.
In dynoland, wrapping a steel exhaust pipe could make it burn out in less than hours of test time. Just one of the reasons that they use a lot of SS tubing.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158097 is a reply to message #158069] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 13:20 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Michael,
If the coach was used everyday that the exhaust system was brought up to operating temperature everyday then the headers would have a better chance of surviving. But our coaches are driven randomly and sit for long periods of time and moisture is absorbed by the wrap and held next to the metal and the header and corrode and life is greatly shortened, as me how I know! Header manufactories will not warrantee their headers when they are wrapped. Your location in the US will also affect the the moisture that would be absorbed by the wrap. In the southwest it is considerably dryer, in other parts of the country where the humidity is much higher then it becomes a real issue.
J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMCMI
77 Eleganza Custom (For Sale)
1975 Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
On the road in Tucson
On Jan 26, 2012, at 8:21 AM, Michael wrote:
>
>
> Thats a really interesting subject. Not starting yet another argument. But if the goal is to get the heat out of the end of the exhaust why wouldn't wrapping the entire exhaust be a good idea? If it collects moisture why wouldn't the heat simply burn it off since the headers get so hot? I have two really close friends that all their vehicles are wrapped and they swear they have never had a issue.
> --
> ***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
> Michael, Casa Grande, AZ
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158145 is a reply to message #158041] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 21:07 |
RadioActiveGMC
Messages: 1020
Registered: November 2010
Location: Hot AZ desert
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Hum interesting. Again not starting anything (its wasn't even my thread). But how much water ever get up in the header area? When the GMC isn't being used, then during the worst rain they can't can't wet. When your driving I imagine that they don't see tons of water up that high. And when driving its gets really hot so the moisture would not be a factor. Long after you shut down the headers stay hot, and I'm sure the little moisture would burn off.
Voiding warranty.....
Almost an product gets a voided warranty when modified. When Lingenfelter makes a stage III Corvette, or Kleeman does a monster Mercedes etc warranty gets voided. Just cause the warranty gets voided doesn't mean its a bad idea. Iphones get voided when jailbroken. The mfj tried to limit nearly every product from being modified. Yet hate to say it I own a zillion voided warranty stuff that I have modded to much better results then the mfj ever built them at. For work all we do is improve products and void factory warranty. However our work it ten times better then the factory type farmed out third party service centers.
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Onans smell, "Go solar/wind power!"
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158151 is a reply to message #158145] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 21:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Michael,
Man you're like a dog with a bone aintcha! (Aussie slang lesson for the day) ;-)
Let's examine your statements below:
Statement: But how much water ever get up in the header area?
Comment: During a rainstorm water also comes through the grill and since the radiator does not fill the entire width of the grill it
will wind up on the engine. How much gets through and how it is distributed I wouldn't have a clue but I reckon enough would wind up
on the headers which would soak the header wrap.
Statement: And when driving its gets really hot so the moisture would not be a factor.
Comment: That makes sense.
Statement: Long after you shut down the headers stay hot, and I'm sure the little moisture would burn off.
Comment: I'm not so sure about that, the headers are thin metal and don't contain much mass to retain a lot of heat. Up near the
heads it is probable that the moisture in the tape would evaporate but the further you get away from the heads the quicker they will
cool the more water would remain in the tape. The latent heat of vaporization will drop the temperature pretty quickly.
Hey, I just thought of something! Dan Gregg has a glass window in his engine hatch and headers, he can answer the question regarding
how much water gets to the headers in a rainstorm.
Statement: I own a zillion voided warranty stuff that I have modded to much better results then the mfj ever built them at.
Comment: If the wrap causes the headers to corrode and fail how does that make them better? If the intent is to keep the floor of
the "cockpit" cooler insulate the bottom and top sides. That works and has no downside. Also put a set of vents in the side of your
GMC to promote airflow through the engine bay.
BTW: I saw a set of headers at a rally for $40 and I knew that new they were TEN TIMES more expensive so I bought them. It turns out
I was rather stupid because I didn't examine them closely. When I did I found spots that were EXTREMELY thin. Also I could see
evidence that they had been wrapped.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012 2:08 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS
Hum interesting. Again not starting anything (its wasn't even my thread). But how much water ever get up in the header area? When
the GMC isn't being used, then during the worst rain they can't can't wet. When your driving I imagine that they don't see tons of
water up that high. And when driving its gets really hot so the moisture would not be a factor. Long after you shut down the headers
stay hot, and I'm sure the little moisture would burn off.
Voiding warranty.....
Almost an product gets a voided warranty when modified. When Lingenfelter makes a stage III Corvette, or Kleeman does a monster
Mercedes etc warranty gets voided. Just cause the warranty gets voided doesn't mean its a bad idea. Iphones get voided when
jailbroken. The mfj tried to limit nearly every product from being modified. Yet hate to say it I own a zillion voided warranty
stuff that I have modded to much better results then the mfj ever built them at. For work all we do is improve products and void
factory warranty. However our work it ten times better then the factory type farmed out third party service centers.
--
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Casa Grande, AZ
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158157 is a reply to message #158041] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 22:19 |
RadioActiveGMC
Messages: 1020
Registered: November 2010
Location: Hot AZ desert
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I just like to ask questions. My brain is very concrete. I'm the first person to align my thoughts if something makes more sense. But I have ADD, and honestly if it doesn't click never take me wrong. I have learned a lot from people by posing arguments that make more sense to my brain.
Maybe I just don't see it perhaps its where we live. In AZ we really don't get storms that blow horizontal that could get to the headers. I do have a oversized radiator however. I've never seen a drop of wet that deep into my engine "when not driving". But again I'm in the desert. (while I did grow up in NJ, and own a home in Oregon but neither place I had a GMC).
My modifying statement wasn't saying the ruining the headers would make a improvement. My statement there was more, the fact that a warranty gets voided by a mod isn't something ever that proves to me it shouldn't be done. If I was concerned often concerned about warranty I'd be doomed! My AMG Mercedes Benz I cut a hole in the convertible rear deck lid to add a antenna to the car and never turned back! I love modifying things, and when I do its to improve it. I really don't have any notion either way for header wrap. I just found the thread interesting.
My engine stays HOT for along time after the engine is off. But again I'm no expert I've never tested actual header temps. Perhaps the headers do cool off fast. They are far less surface area the the block for example.
Oh, PPS: I did add vents to the sides. I also added heat shields, and noise reducing padding. My floor is as cool as a cucumber now! lol I just wanted to see why people say header wrap is bad. But my floor is nice a cool. It used to get so hot it would burn your toes! Just Kidding but did used to get really hot-
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Onans smell, "Go solar/wind power!"
[Updated on: Thu, 26 January 2012 22:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158160 is a reply to message #158145] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 22:26 |
Greg and April
Messages: 263
Registered: December 2011
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Michael,
Think about the issue in a different way.
Steam + Hot Iron/Steel <-----> Hydrogen + Iron Oxide.
H20 + Fe <-----> H2 + FeO
This is a classic two way chemical reaction known since the French
Revolution, and it occurs the fastest when the iron/steel is red hot, as
water molecules disassociates into hydrogen and the oxygen reacts with the
hot iron to form rust.
So water/steam being trapped next to the very hot headers, is a cause for
concern of early header failure - it's basic high school chemistry.
As long as the water/steam is not trapped next to the hot steel, it will
evaporate away with little harm done, but if the water/steam is trapped next
to the hot steel, then the water vapor is held in prolonged and constant
contact with the steel at higher temperatures, and the chemical reaction
occurs at a much faster rate.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <radioactive626@msn.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 20:07
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS
> When your driving I imagine that they don't see tons of water up that
> high. And when driving its gets > really hot so the moisture would not be
> a factor. Long after you shut down the headers stay hot, and > I'm sure
> the little moisture would burn off.
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158163 is a reply to message #158157] |
Thu, 26 January 2012 22:36 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Michael,
OK
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael
I just like to ask questions. My brain is very concrete. I'm the first person to align my thoughts if something makes more sense.
But I have ADD, and honestly if it doesn't click never take me wrong. I have learned a lot from people by posing arguments that make
more sense to my brain.
Maybe I just don't see it perhaps its where we live. In AZ we really don't get storms that blow horizontal that could get to the
headers. I do have a oversized radiator however. I've never seen a drop of wet that deep into my engine "when not driving". But
again I'm in the desert. (while I did grow up in NJ, and own a home in Oregon but neither place I had a GMC).
My modifying statement wasn't saying the ruining the headers would make a improvement. My statement there was more, the fact that a
warranty gets voided by a mod isn't something ever that proves to me it shouldn't be done. If I was concerned often concerned about
warranty I'd be doomed! My AMG Mercedes Benz I cut a hole in the convertible rear deck lid to add a antenna to the car and never
turned back! I love modifying things, and when I do its to improve it. I really don't have any notion either way for header wrap. I
just found the thread interesting.
My engine stays HOT for along time after the engine is off. But again I'm no expert I've never tested actual header temps. Perhaps
the headers do cool off fast. They are far less surface area the the block for example.
--
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Casa Grande, AZ
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158187 is a reply to message #158041] |
Fri, 27 January 2012 09:26 |
RadioActiveGMC
Messages: 1020
Registered: November 2010
Location: Hot AZ desert
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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You guys are really great!
The only thing my brain can't align to is how you can get that much water all the way up to the header. BUT again some wise GMC people recently told me not everyone circumstance is the same. I guess it depends on use. For many they drive a lot from place to place in different climates. I live in the dry part of AZ, its rarely wet (other parts of the state get a lot more rain then we do). When it is wet we don't camp.My GMC isn't a people mover as much as a weekend camper and thats in nice weather. I guess if I lived in Seattle or Dallas for example then they get a lot more pooled water on the roads then we do. I haven't had windshield blades (that worked) since I bought my GMC. Which reminds me I need to replace them!!!
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Onans smell, "Go solar/wind power!"
[Updated on: Fri, 27 January 2012 09:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS [message #158365 is a reply to message #158338] |
Sat, 28 January 2012 21:58 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Quite a few custom motorcycles, many using Harley-Davidson
engines as a basis, use an insulating wrap around the headers
and the tailpipes. I had always assumed the purpose was to
keep the riders' legs from getting burned!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
_______________
*[ ]....[][ ][]\
*--OO---[]---O-*
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:47:27 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] THERMO-TEC INSULATING WRAP FOR HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS
>
> Michael,
>
> This photo might help:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=39886
>
> Notice the areas to the left and right of the radiator, in a rainstorm water would enter through the slots in the grill and head
> into the engine bay and wind up on the sides of the engine where the exhaust manifolds / headers are located.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael
>
> You guys are really great!
> The only thing my brain can't align to is how you can get that much water all the way up to the header. BUT again
> some wise GMC people recently told me not everyone circumstance is the same. I guess it depends on use. For many they drive a lot
> from place to place in different climates. I live in the dry part of AZ, its rarely wet (other parts of the state get a lot more
> rain then we do). When it is wet we don't camp.My GMC isn't a people mover as much as a weekend camper and thats in nice weather. I
> guess if I lived in Seattle or Dallas for example then they get a lot more pooled water on the roads then we do. I haven't had
> windshield blades (that worked) since I bought my GMC. Which reminds me I need to replace them!!!
> --
> Michael
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