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| [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157019] |
Tue, 17 January 2012 01:49  |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
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I just read a very interesting article in the January 2012 Family Motor Coaching magazine that discussed the proper way to connect multiple batteries in a 12 volt system. This may only have relevance for a few on this list, as most probably have no more than two 6 volt batteries for the house. However as more of us look to solar to provide electric power for the majority of our use I'd wager we also think of adding more battery capacity to "Live Large" as Jerry Work has said.
The article written by Gary Bunzer is titled "Balance of Power, Learn how to optimize the efficiency of your motorhome's house batteries." He includes a brief discussion of Peukert's law that was over my head, but most helpful were the diagrams of how to / how not to connect a bank of batteries.
The ability to park somewhere for a few days without the need for shore power or long generator runs appeals to my self-sufficient side. I did not think that connecting multiple 12 volt circuits in parallel was optimal, but if done properly you can add a great deal of battery to the mix and still get long battery life.
The article is only available on-line with subscription, so I can't link to it, but if you received the magazine I'd recommend the article.
Larry Davick
The Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
Sent from my iPad
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A Mystery Machine
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Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157023 is a reply to message #157019] |
Tue, 17 January 2012 06:42  |
Kudzu
Messages: 377
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Location: Marshville, NC
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No subscription necessary. At the top of the article is a link to the
PDF with the diagrams.
http://www.fmcmagazine.com/front-page-rotating-articles/6922-the-balance-of-power
Thanks for the info!
Dan in NC
Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
"Tzetze Fly"
On 1/17/2012 2:49 AM, Larry Davick wrote:
> I just read a very interesting article in the January 2012 Family Motor Coaching magazine that discussed the proper way to connect multiple batteries in a 12 volt system. This may only have relevance for a few on this list, as most probably have no more than two 6 volt batteries for the house. However as more of us look to solar to provide electric power for the majority of our use I'd wager we also think of adding more battery capacity to "Live Large" as Jerry Work has said.
>
> The article written by Gary Bunzer is titled "Balance of Power, Learn how to optimize the efficiency of your motorhome's house batteries." He includes a brief discussion of Peukert's law that was over my head, but most helpful were the diagrams of how to / how not to connect a bank of batteries.
>
> The ability to park somewhere for a few days without the need for shore power or long generator runs appeals to my self-sufficient side. I did not think that connecting multiple 12 volt circuits in parallel was optimal, but if done properly you can add a great deal of battery to the mix and still get long battery life.
>
> The article is only available on-line with subscription, so I can't link to it, but if you received the magazine I'd recommend the article.
>
> Larry Davick
> The Mystery Machine
> 1976(ish) Palm Beach
> Fremont, CA
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157026 is a reply to message #157019] |
Tue, 17 January 2012 07:14 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| ljdavick wrote on Tue, 17 January 2012 02:49 |
I just read a very interesting article in the January 2012 Family Motor Coaching magazine that discussed the proper way to connect multiple batteries in a 12 volt system. This may only have relevance for a few on this list, as most probably have no more than two 6 volt batteries for the house. However as more of us look to solar to provide electric power for the majority of our use I'd wager we also think of adding more battery capacity to "Live Large" as Jerry Work has said.
The article written by Gary Bunzer is titled "Balance of Power, Learn how to optimize the efficiency of your motorhome's house batteries." He includes a brief discussion of Peukert's law that was over my head, but most helpful were the diagrams of how to / how not to connect a bank of batteries.
The ability to park somewhere for a few days without the need for shore power or long generator runs appeals to my self-sufficient side. I did not think that connecting multiple 12 volt circuits in parallel was optimal, but if done properly you can add a great deal of battery to the mix and still get long battery life.
The article is only available on-line with subscription, so I can't link to it, but if you received the magazine I'd recommend the article.
Larry Davick
|
If you are an FMCA member, it will be found in the January edition of Family Motor Coaching (pg46). I think he could have put more emphasis on the one line where he stated that if LA batteries paralleled are not identical, they will not do well (pg48, pr2). This has been a plague to me for decades. I wasted a great deal of time trying to explain this.
Do not feel bad if you are lost in the Peukert exponent. The problem is best though of in terms circulation. (Yes, the electrolyte in a battery does circulate. Flooded does literally while AGM and Jell chemically.) This is a lot of the difference between the construction of a starting battery and a deep cycle. Just know that if you beat a battery to get a lot out of it fast, it will get even with you. (The perverse nature of inanimate objects.)
I may just scan and print a copy to pass around.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157028 is a reply to message #157026] |
Tue, 17 January 2012 07:18 |
Kudzu
Messages: 377
Registered: November 2011
Location: Marshville, NC
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See my post. Available free.
Dan in NC
On 1/17/2012 8:14 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
> ljdavick wrote on Tue, 17 January 2012 02:49
>> I just read a very interesting article in the January 2012 Family Motor Coaching magazine that discussed the proper way to connect multiple batteries in a 12 volt system. This may only have relevance for a few on this list, as most probably have no more than two 6 volt batteries for the house. However as more of us look to solar to provide electric power for the majority of our use I'd wager we also think of adding more battery capacity to "Live Large" as Jerry Work has said.
>>
>> The article written by Gary Bunzer is titled "Balance of Power, Learn how to optimize the efficiency of your motorhome's house batteries." He includes a brief discussion of Peukert's law that was over my head, but most helpful were the diagrams of how to / how not to connect a bank of batteries.
>>
>> The ability to park somewhere for a few days without the need for shore power or long generator runs appeals to my self-sufficient side. I did not think that connecting multiple 12 volt circuits in parallel was optimal, but if done properly you can add a great deal of battery to the mix and still get long battery life.
>>
>> The article is only available on-line with subscription, so I can't link to it, but if you received the magazine I'd recommend the article.
>>
>> Larry Davick
> If you are an FMCA member, it will be found in the January edition of Family Motor Coaching (pg46). I think he could have put more emphasis on the one line where he stated that if LA batteries paralleled are not identical, they will not do well (pg48, pr2). This has been a plague to me for decades. I wasted a great deal of time trying to explain this.
>
> Do not feel bad if you are lost in the Peukert exponent. The problem is best though of in terms circulation. (Yes, the electrolyte in a battery does circulate. Flooded does literally while AGM and Jell chemically.) This is a lot of the difference between the construction of a starting battery and a deep cycle. Just know that if you beat a battery to get a lot out of it fast, it will get even with you. (The perverse nature of inanimate objects.)
>
> I may just scan and print a copy to pass around.
>
> Matt
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157040 is a reply to message #157019] |
Tue, 17 January 2012 09:06 |
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Matt,
Read closely. It is available in PDF online.
I'm going to reformat it, take out the adds, etc. for my personal copy. The titles and other stuff won't spread across to pages either.
Byron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: 01/17/12 08:14
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine
>
> ljdavick wrote on Tue, 17 January 2012 02:49
> > I just read a very interesting article in the January 2012 Family Motor Coaching magazine that discussed the proper way to connect multiple batteries in a 12 volt system. This may only have relevance for a few on this list, as most probably have no more than two 6 volt batteries for the house. However as more of us look to solar to provide electric power for the majority of our use I'd wager we also think of adding more battery capacity to "Live Large" as Jerry Work has said.
> >
> > The article written by Gary Bunzer is titled "Balance of Power, Learn how to optimize the efficiency of your motorhome's house batteries." He includes a brief discussion of Peukert's law that was over my head, but most helpful were the diagrams of how to / how not to connect a bank of batteries.
> >
> > The ability to park somewhere for a few days without the need for shore power or long generator runs appeals to my self-sufficient side. I did not think that connecting multiple 12 volt circuits in parallel was optimal, but if done properly you can add a great deal of battery to the mix and still get long battery life.
> >
> > The article is only available on-line with subscription, so I can't link to it, but if you received the magazine I'd recommend the article.
> >
> > Larry Davick
>
> If you are an FMCA member, it will be found in the January edition of Family Motor Coaching (pg46). I think he could have put more emphasis on the one line where he stated that if LA batteries paralleled are not identical, they will not do well (pg48, pr2). This has been a plague to me for decades. I wasted a great deal of time trying to explain this.
>
> Do not feel bad if you are lost in the Peukert exponent. The problem is best though of in terms circulation. (Yes, the electrolyte in a battery does circulate. Flooded does literally while AGM and Jell chemically.) This is a lot of the difference between the construction of a starting battery and a deep cycle. Just know that if you beat a battery to get a lot out of it fast, it will get even with you. (The perverse nature of inanimate objects.)
>
> I may just scan and print a copy to pass around.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
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Full-timing to enjoy the USA
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GMC paint schemes at -
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157054 is a reply to message #157053] |
Tue, 17 January 2012 11:46 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 17 January 2012 10:36 |
Actually, I had started the reply almost an hour before it got sent.
Matt
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I'd really be impressed if you started the reply before the question was posted 
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157215 is a reply to message #157019] |
Wed, 18 January 2012 15:30 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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So I wonder how much of the "poor" performance of 2 12V batteries in parallel is directly related to where the load wires are connected. I never thought about connecting the + to one battery and the - to the other battery HHHMMM.
DAVE KING
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157220 is a reply to message #157215] |
Wed, 18 January 2012 17:26 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| kingd wrote on Wed, 18 January 2012 16:30 |
So I wonder how much of the "poor" performance of 2 12V batteries in parallel is directly related to where the load wires are connected. I never thought about connecting the + to one battery and the - to the other battery HHHMMM.
DAVE KING
|
Dave,
You might just be surprised. This and the mix new and old trick.
This is a "discussion" I have had with Oh-So-Many owners over the years. I give them the short answer that is open ended. If they realize it is still open, I am glad to continue, otherwise, I can waste my time some other way. That is about 1 in 3 or 4.
When an owner wants to strap a new 12 in parallel with the existing and I tell him that with his situation and what he has in mind to do, he will not get capacity*2, he will be lucky if he gets capacity*1.5, if he does not figure out there is a problem here I will go along.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157247 is a reply to message #157239] |
Wed, 18 January 2012 22:04 |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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| ljdavick wrote on Wed, 18 January 2012 17:07 |
Mix new and old? I've always heard that was a big no-no. Is it an urban legend that with old and new batteries in parallel the old ones will draw down the new one?
I
|
No, an old one will not "draw down the new one" as a fully charged, flooded cell battery will have the same resting voltage, old or new. There is no current exchange between good batteries. Now, if one has a bad cell, yes, there would be current flow between them. BTW, I have done extensive tests paralleling old and new batteries with no load on them, and there simply is no current flow, as there is no voltage difference between them. Old batteries, of the same type (say flooded cell), in good condition, have the same resting voltage as new ones, even brand to brand.
However, the old battery or different brands of batteries, will have a different internal resistance than the new one. This internal resistance was mentioned in the article. Due to that differing internal resistance and things like the connection resistance pointed out in the article, they will neither charge nor discharge in the same way, so the capacity of the bank of batteries combined, will not be the sum of the two as rated alone. The battery with the lowest total resistance, internal and connections, will do the most work, with the other tagging alone for the ride. This is the same as Matt notes, and is implied in the article.
It was a very good article.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157256 is a reply to message #157247] |
Wed, 18 January 2012 23:24 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Which would have the lower resistance, the new or the old?
My assumption is that the newer battery would have the lower resistance as the plates are not sulfated, etc. In use the newer battery would do the yeoman's share of the work, 'till at some point it becomes sulfated and more closely matches the older one.
Is this wild guess anywhere near correct?
Larry Davick
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 18, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Rob Allen wrote:
>
>
> ljdavick wrote on Wed, 18 January 2012 17:07
>> Mix new and old? I've always heard that was a big no-no. Is it an urban legend that with old and new batteries in parallel the old ones will draw down the new one?
>>
>> I
>
>
> No, an old one will not "draw down the new one" as a fully charged, flooded cell battery will have the same resting voltage, old or new. There is no current exchange between good batteries. Now, if one has a bad cell, yes, there would be current flow between them. BTW, I have done extensive tests paralleling old and new batteries with no load on them, and there simply is no current flow, as there is no voltage difference between them. Old batteries, of the same type (say flooded cell), in good condition, have the same resting voltage as new ones, even brand to brand.
>
> However, the old battery or different brands of batteries, will have a different internal resistance than the new one. This internal resistance was mentioned in the article. Due to that differing internal resistance and things like the connection resistance pointed out in the article, they will neither charge nor discharge in the same way, so the capacity of the bank of batteries combined, will not be the sum of the two as rated alone. The battery with the lowest total resistance, internal and connections, will do the most work, with the other tagging alone for the ride. This is the same as Matt notes, and is implied in the article.
>
> It was a very good article.
>
> --
> Rob Allen
> former owner of '76 x-PB
> _______________________________________________
>
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157264 is a reply to message #157256] |
Thu, 19 January 2012 08:41 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| ljdavick wrote on Thu, 19 January 2012 00:24 |
Which would have the lower resistance, the new or the old?
My assumption is that the newer battery would have the lower resistance as the plates are not sulfated, etc. In use the newer battery would do the yeoman's share of the work, 'till at some point it becomes sulfated and more closely matches the older one.
Is this wild guess anywhere near correct?
Larry Davick
|
Larry,
That is a little simplified, but substantially correct.
(readers - please also read Rob Allen -Jan 18, 2012, at 8:04 PM)
This whole affair quickly becomes very technical, but as long as one is willing to keep thinking, it can be understood.
When an engineer looks at a battery, the simplest diagram is an idea battery with two (2) resistors. One of those is very low and is in series to express the voltage change with current flow. The other is (fortunately) very high as it is in parallel with the ideal battery and expresses the loss of power over time (leakage). As said, this is the simplest description. That is nice, but really seems to change (ready?) is the Peukert exponent more than anything else.
How much can/does this affect?
Just about everything that the battery does as it influences both charging and discharging.
Lead Acid batteries do change terminal voltage with age and temperature. The change with age not really due to age, but is a result of the number and depth of discharge cycles and is largely a reflection of the change in electrolyte density. The density is lost because some of the sulfur gets tied into the lead matrix and no amount of charging with true DC will get it loose.
One would think that the heat of charging and such would bring the two batteries - regardless of service time - to be very close as the battery being charged more would soon match the other. Nice thought, but it just doesn't work out that way. They just never seem to get balanced. But then, I have even seen differences between two batteries installed as parallel from the same lot number.
I do wish I now had the time and resources to duplicate some of the experiments I performed long ago with A - some of the instrumentation I now have and B - a modern smart battery charger.
For the last few months, I have been experimenting with a battery "desulfator" with mixed results. When I know more, I will pass it along.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157272 is a reply to message #157264] |
Thu, 19 January 2012 10:23 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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I suspect (but don't know) that desulfating can restore
SOME life to an older battery. I also suspect that the
extent of recovery depends largely upon the age of
the battery AND extent of the sulfation.
Pulse charging, where a very short higher voltage DC
pulse (maybe 2-3 VDC?) is created that rides the static
DC charging voltage every few seconds, is used by some
commercial chargers.
I have also heard (IIRC) that some commercial devices
use an AC voltage that is impressed on the DC charging
voltage intermittently to destroy the sulfation and
restore at least SOME of the old battery's capability.
Both of the above methods seem to me to have validity.
Battery Tenders (tm) seem to really help to extend the
life of batteries that see intermittent use; motorcycles,
generators, lawn/garden tools, etc. I think they are just
low current (~ .5 to .75 Amps) chargers.
Battery Minders (tm) are supposedly DC pulse chargers
where a short pulse of higher DC voltage periodically is
added to the static 13.2 (or so) Volt DC charger output.
I use the Battery Tenders on our Harleys, an emergency
8 kW generator for the house, and a GMC pickup that
had been having battery discharge problems (cured by
a battery replacement).
I also use a Model XC100 Xtreme Charge charger from
PulseTech Products Corporation which brings the battery
back up to full charge and then applies a short charge
voltage every 10 seconds or so to retain top condition.
That short pulse is a "high frequency conditioning pulse."
The manufacturer claims that, "This helps ensure that
your new battery will stay in like-new condition while your
older batteries often improve dramatically."
I used the XC100 to bring my paralleled 12V starting
batteries back to decent condition. I also used it to
do an initial charge on the two 6V golf cart batteries
from Sam's warehouse that I just installed on Saturday.
No financial connection, just a satisfied user of the above
mentioned products.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
_______________
*[ ]....[][ ][]\
*--OO---[]---O-*
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 08:41:53 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine
>
>
>
> ljdavick wrote on Thu, 19 January 2012 00:24
> > Which would have the lower resistance, the new or the old?
> >
> > My assumption is that the newer battery would have the lower resistance as the plates are not sulfated, etc. In use the newer battery would do the yeoman's share of the work, 'till at some point it becomes sulfated and more closely matches the older one.
> >
> > Is this wild guess anywhere near correct?
> >
> > Larry Davick
>
> Larry,
>
> That is a little simplified, but substantially correct.
> (readers - please also read Rob Allen -Jan 18, 2012, at 8:04 PM)
>
> This whole affair quickly becomes very technical, but as long as one is willing to keep thinking, it can be understood.
>
> When an engineer looks at a battery, the simplest diagram is an idea battery with two (2) resistors. One of those is very low and is in series to express the voltage change with current flow. The other is (fortunately) very high as it is in parallel with the ideal battery and expresses the loss of power over time (leakage). As said, this is the simplest description. That is nice, but really seems to change (ready?) is the Peukert exponent more than anything else.
> How much can/does this affect?
> Just about everything that the battery does as it influences both charging and discharging.
>
> Lead Acid batteries do change terminal voltage with age and temperature. The change with age not really due to age, but is a result of the number and depth of discharge cycles and is largely a reflection of the change in electrolyte density. The density is lost because some of the sulfur gets tied into the lead matrix and no amount of charging with true DC will get it loose.
>
> One would think that the heat of charging and such would bring the two batteries - regardless of service time - to be very close as the battery being charged more would soon match the other. Nice thought, but it just doesn't work out that way. They just never seem to get balanced. But then, I have even seen differences between two batteries installed as parallel from the same lot number.
>
> I do wish I now had the time and resources to duplicate some of the experiments I performed long ago with A - some of the instrumentation I now have and B - a modern smart battery charger.
>
> For the last few months, I have been experimenting with a battery "desulfator" with mixed results. When I know more, I will pass it along.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Balancing battery banks FMC Magazine [message #157304 is a reply to message #157303] |
Thu, 19 January 2012 15:14 |
Kudzu
Messages: 377
Registered: November 2011
Location: Marshville, NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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What desulfator did you buy?
Dan in NC
Caregiver to a 1976 Eleganza II
"Tzetze Fly"
On 1/19/2012 4:07 PM, A. wrote:
>
> ahamilto wrote on Thu, 19 January 2012 09:48
>> I have one of those desulfator battery conditioners on the GMC battery that was graveyard dead when I started messing with it a few days ago. I think the battery is over 12 years old. With the help of a "dumb" charger, I have changed the symptoms from red light to orange light, but after three days, no green light. No loss if it doesn't work, I will just break down and buy a new battery. But will be doing the Snoopy happy dance if it does resurrect the old battery and save me buying a new one.
> The light on the conditioner was green a couple of hours or so ago, so I moved the conditioner over to the house battery. It started out with the yellow charge light on. After I let it run for a while I checked on it and the yellow light and green light were both on. The manual doesn't say what that means. I disconnected and reconnected to reset the maintainer and the yellow light came back on (charging). The chassis battery acted the same, so maybe I will get a green light on the house battery after a while. I have a few things to do on it before I try to start the GMC (like adding coolant and checking/changing the oil and checking/adding power steering fluid and ATF). If the weather holds and nothing else interferes, tomorrow I could be cranking the GMC for the first time since I have owned it.
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1976 Eleganza II
1996 Chevy Impala SS
1999 Kawasaki Vulcan Nomad
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