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| [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155737] |
Fri, 06 January 2012 17:09  |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
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I just watched a segment on Jay Leno's Garage talking about waterless coolant. It's a fascinating watch. The company is Evan's Cooling, and their website is :
<http://evanscooling.com/>
Jay's video is < http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras/car-care/waterless-engine-coolant/ >
I'm not certain why, but the fellow on the video says that their product is good to over 300 degrees F, and it operates at a lower pressure. Is the pressure of our cooling system related to the water in it? I thought it was simply a function of temperature.
It's $40 / gallon, and, duh, you don't add water.
Larry Davick
Fremont, California
The Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
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A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155741 is a reply to message #155737] |
Fri, 06 January 2012 17:35  |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Jan 6, 2012, at 4:09 PM, Larry Davick wrote:
> I just watched a segment on Jay Leno's Garage talking about waterless coolant. It's a fascinating watch. The company is Evan's Cooling, and their website is :
> <http://evanscooling.com/>
>
> Jay's video is < http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras/car-care/waterless-engine-coolant/ >
>
> I'm not certain why, but the fellow on the video says that their product is good to over 300 degrees F, and it operates at a lower pressure. Is the pressure of our cooling system related to the water in it? I thought it was simply a function of temperature.
>
> It's $40 / gallon, and, duh, you don't add water.
>
>
> Larry Davick
> Fremont, California
> The Mystery Machine
> '76 (ish) Palm Beach
>
The Evans product is based on propylene glycol. Since there is no water mixed with it it would indeed operate at no pressure.
Conventional antifreeze will pressurize the system and help by raising the boiling point of the mixture.
Yes, the boiling point of our standard antifreeze is due to the concentration of the water in the mixture - it is not simply a function of the temperature.
If you look at the numbers on the Evans website then the heat capacity of their product is only two thirds that of plain water, and still falls around 25% short of the value for water plus conventional antifreeze. This means that you would need to up the flow rate by 25% just to break even, and see no temperature difference. And that is assuming that the radiator as it stands can dissipate the heat from a larger volume of liquid going through it. This means that the engine will run hotter with this product
In searching the internet I see that most users have put in higher volume water pumps to compensate for the higher temperature but they still run about 230 degrees (or higher) instead of the 220 that most of us are used to with our ethylene glycol / water antifreeze mixtures.
I don't plan to use it as my antifreeze / water system works fine for me. I see no benefit for me and there is a much higher cost to it
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155772 is a reply to message #155741] |
Fri, 06 January 2012 20:28 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
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| emerystora wrote on Fri, 06 January 2012 18:35 |
On Jan 6, 2012, at 4:09 PM, Larry Davick wrote:
> I just watched a segment on Jay Leno's Garage talking about waterless coolant. It's a fascinating watch. The company is Evan's Cooling, and their website is :
> <http://evanscooling.com/>
>
> Jay's video is < http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras/car-care/waterless-engine-coolant/ >
>
> I'm not certain why, but the fellow on the video says that their product is good to over 300 degrees F, and it operates at a lower pressure. Is the pressure of our cooling system related to the water in it? I thought it was simply a function of temperature.
>
> It's $40 / gallon, and, duh, you don't add water.
>
>
> Larry Davick
> Fremont, California
> The Mystery Machine
> '76 (ish) Palm Beach
>
The Evans product is based on propylene glycol. Since there is no water mixed with it it would indeed operate at no pressure.
Conventional antifreeze will pressurize the system and help by raising the boiling point of the mixture.
Yes, the boiling point of our standard antifreeze is due to the concentration of the water in the mixture - it is not simply a function of the temperature.
If you look at the numbers on the Evans website then the heat capacity of their product is only two thirds that of plain water, and still falls around 25% short of the value for water plus conventional antifreeze. This means that you would need to up the flow rate by 25% just to break even, and see no temperature difference. And that is assuming that the radiator as it stands can dissipate the heat from a larger volume of liquid going through it. This means that the engine will run hotter with this product
In searching the internet I see that most users have put in higher volume water pumps to compensate for the higher temperature but they still run about 230 degrees (or higher) instead of the 220 that most of us are used to with our ethylene glycol / water antifreeze mixtures.
I don't plan to use it as my antifreeze / water system works fine for me. I see no benefit for me and there is a much higher cost to it
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
_
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Emery,
Are you saying propylene glycol has no thermal expansion? The major cause of pressure in a closed system is due to thermal expansion.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155792 is a reply to message #155741] |
Fri, 06 January 2012 22:52 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Emery,
I'm awfully glad you responded to this. I didn't think there was a free lunch. What's the harm of running the engine a few degrees hotter if there is no danger of boil over? Let's assume that the spark and fuel mixture are self correcting, as in efi.
I know there reasons to keep the engine within a temperature range. It seems to me that there are some benefits to this, such as removing the risk of boil over for a worn pressure cap and reduced corrosion. Of course the cost and the reduced heat transfer are detriments.
This is just an academic discussion, as I have no plans to switch.
Larry Davick
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>
>
> The Evans product is based on propylene glycol. Since there is no water mixed with it it would indeed operate at no pressure.
> Conventional antifreeze will pressurize the system and help by raising the boiling point of the mixture.
>
> Yes, the boiling point of our standard antifreeze is due to the concentration of the water in the mixture - it is not simply a function of the temperature.
>
> If you look at the numbers on the Evans website then the heat capacity of their product is only two thirds that of plain water, and still falls around 25% short of the value for water plus conventional antifreeze. This means that you would need to up the flow rate by 25% just to break even, and see no temperature difference. And that is assuming that the radiator as it stands can dissipate the heat from a larger volume of liquid going through it. This means that the engine will run hotter with this product
>
> In searching the internet I see that most users have put in higher volume water pumps to compensate for the higher temperature but they still run about 230 degrees (or higher) instead of the 220 that most of us are used to with our ethylene glycol / water antifreeze mixtures.
>
> I don't plan to use it as my antifreeze / water system works fine for me. I see no benefit for me and there is a much higher cost to it
>
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Santa Fe, NM
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155827 is a reply to message #155792] |
Sat, 07 January 2012 12:01 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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""I'm awfully glad you responded to this. I didn't think there was a free lunch. What's the harm of running the engine a few degrees hotter if there is no danger of boil over? Let's assume that the spark and fuel mixture are self correcting, as in efi.
""
It is a total drivetrain system so anything connected to the engine will be affected by temperature differences. Transmission fluid, power steering temps, underhood temps, any coolers in the system and so on. A lot of time is spent during the development of cooling systems to look at all of those. As we start shuffling things around and adding stuff like coolers, we basically upset the whole system--some for the better, some for the worse.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155938 is a reply to message #155737] |
Sun, 08 January 2012 13:26 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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And I would think since it is a mixture it probably has no "pet safe" benefit either. Finding true EG is getting harder as most is now the 'Mixes with any color' 'extended life' stuff. I think you can still get EG as NAPA a Peak branded product. I prefer (whether I'm right or wrong) EG in the vehicles that where designed for EG, OAT in the the GM Dexcool cars and EOAT in the Chryslers that spec that and stay pure to the OEM recommendations. I've also hear where if you sample temp at the thermostat neck and use a water wetter product, you may get higher temp readings as more heat should be transfering engine to coolant. Conversly you should see (maybe) lower temps after the radiator if it is better at xfering heat. If the return temp was the same would you then be improving cooling as there is a greater heat net loss? Gets complicated here.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155941 is a reply to message #155938] |
Sun, 08 January 2012 13:36 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Sorry, John, but as a former coolants engineer at Dow Chemical, I put "water wetters" in the "mouse milk" category.
That is, it probably won't do any harm but probably not any good either.
Emery Stora
On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:26 PM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
>
>
> And I would think since it is a mixture it probably has no "pet safe" benefit either. Finding true EG is getting harder as most is now the 'Mixes with any color' 'extended life' stuff. I think you can still get EG as NAPA a Peak branded product. I prefer (whether I'm right or wrong) EG in the vehicles that where designed for EG, OAT in the the GM Dexcool cars and EOAT in the Chryslers that spec that and stay pure to the OEM recommendations. I've also hear where if you sample temp at the thermostat neck and use a water wetter product, you may get higher temp readings as more heat should be transfering engine to coolant. Conversly you should see (maybe) lower temps after the radiator if it is better at xfering heat. If the return temp was the same would you then be improving cooling as there is a greater heat net loss? Gets complicated here.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
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Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155954 is a reply to message #155941] |
Sun, 08 January 2012 14:30 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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On 1/8/12, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> Sorry, John, but as a former coolants engineer at Dow Chemical, I put "water
> wetters" in the "mouse milk" category.
> That is, it probably won't do any harm but probably not any good either.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:26 PM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> And I would think since it is a mixture it probably has no "pet safe"
>> benefit either. Finding true EG is getting harder as most is now the
>> 'Mixes with any color' 'extended life' stuff. I think you can still get
>> EG as NAPA a Peak branded product. I prefer (whether I'm right or wrong)
>> EG in the vehicles that where designed for EG, OAT in the the GM Dexcool
>> cars and EOAT in the Chryslers that spec that and stay pure to the OEM
>> recommendations. I've also hear where if you sample temp at the thermostat
>> neck and use a water wetter product, you may get higher temp readings as
>> more heat should be transfering engine to coolant. Conversly you should
>> see (maybe) lower temps after the radiator if it is better at xfering
>> heat. If the return temp was the same would you then be improving cooling
>> as there is a greater heat net loss? Gets complicated here.
>> --
>> John Lebetski
>> Chicago, IL
>> 77 Eleganza II
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
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--
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #155962 is a reply to message #155954] |
Sun, 08 January 2012 15:47 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Ken H and Jim K must have a secret language they aren't sharing with us!
Larry Davick
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Ken Henderson <net> wrote:
> On 1/8/12, Emery Stora <wrote:
>> Sorry, John, but as a former coolants engineer at Dow Chemical, I put "water
>> wetters" in the "mouse milk" category.
>> That is, it probably won't do any harm but probably not any good either.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>> On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:26 PM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And I would think since it is a mixture it probably has no "pet safe"
>>> benefit either. Finding true EG is getting harder as most is now the
>>> 'Mixes with any color' 'extended life' stuff. I think you can still get
>>> EG as NAPA a Peak branded product. I prefer (whether I'm right or wrong)
>>> EG in the vehicles that where designed for EG, OAT in the the GM Dexcool
>>> cars and EOAT in the Chryslers that spec that and stay pure to the OEM
>>> recommendations. I've also hear where if you sample temp at the thermostat
>>> neck and use a water wetter product, you may get higher temp readings as
>>> more heat should be transfering engine to coolant. Conversly you should
>>> see (maybe) lower temps after the radiator if it is better at xfering
>>> heat. If the return temp was the same would you then be improving cooling
>>> as there is a greater heat net loss? Gets complicated here.
>>> --
>>> John Lebetski
>>> Chicago, IL
>>> 77 Eleganza II
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>
>
> --
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven
>
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #156008 is a reply to message #155737] |
Sun, 08 January 2012 19:51 |
rallymaster
Messages: 662
Registered: February 2004
Location: North Plains, ORYGUN
Karma: -4
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I prefer the "mouse milk" Oh, wait, that was "moose milk" and it was
distilled.
ronC
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:47:08 -0800 Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net>
writes:
> Ken H and Jim K must have a secret language they aren't sharing with
> us!
>
> Larry Davick
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Ken Henderson <net> wrote:
>
> > On 1/8/12, Emery Stora <wrote:
> >> Sorry, John, but as a former coolants engineer at Dow Chemical, I
> put "water
> >> wetters" in the "mouse milk" category.
> >> That is, it probably won't do any harm but probably not any good
> either.
> >>
> >> Emery Stora
> >>
> >> On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:26 PM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And I would think since it is a mixture it probably has no "pet
> safe"
> >>> benefit either. Finding true EG is getting harder as most is
> now the
> >>> 'Mixes with any color' 'extended life' stuff. I think you can
> still get
> >>> EG as NAPA a Peak branded product. I prefer (whether I'm right
> or wrong)
> >>> EG in the vehicles that where designed for EG, OAT in the the GM
> Dexcool
> >>> cars and EOAT in the Chryslers that spec that and stay pure to
> the OEM
> >>> recommendations. I've also hear where if you sample temp at the
> thermostat
> >>> neck and use a water wetter product, you may get higher temp
> readings as
> >>> more heat should be transfering engine to coolant. Conversly you
> should
> >>> see (maybe) lower temps after the radiator if it is better at
> xfering
> >>> heat. If the return temp was the same would you then be
> improving cooling
> >>> as there is a greater heat net loss? Gets complicated here.
> >>> --
> >>> John Lebetski
> >>> Chicago, IL
> >>> 77 Eleganza II
> >>
> >> Emery Stora
> >> 77 Kingsley
> >> Santa Fe, NM
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ken H.
> > Americus, GA
> > '76 X-Birchaven
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
Ron & Linda Clark
1978 Eleganza II
North Plains, ORYGUN
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Ron & Linda Clark
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78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Waterless Coolant? [message #156029 is a reply to message #155962] |
Sun, 08 January 2012 23:41 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| ljdavick wrote on Sun, 08 January 2012 15:47 |
Ken H and Jim K must have a secret language they aren't sharing with us!
Larry Davick
Sent from my iPad
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It got lost in the email. It will arrive here someday. They were just setting the expectation of good things to come.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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