Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151560 is a reply to message #151542] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 12:46   |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The tire wear is not so much from the 1ton unit, but the nut that did
not tighten the upper cam assy.
We hear this cry frequently and I tell them its their fault or the
alignment shop.
The other issue is that you need to replace all the tie rod ends,
Don't tell me they are good, as we have gone through several bibles
where people swore on them and the result was a lie at the end.
Relay and idler also need to be checked.
There is one thing you all need to understand, the 1ton is like
running the std unit wit a 2" spacer from the standpoint of changing
the load location.
When you accelerate and brake, the upper arm will be stressed more
than before, and a careless job will show up as tire wear.
There are some strange phenomena that happens that we do not
understand, but Bill Hubler smiles and tells us it does not bother
him.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Gary Berry <duallycc@gmail.com> wrote:
> No noticeable wear as yet. I have about 3000 miles since the upgrade.
> Running 3 year old BF Goodrich Commercial Radial T/As with about
> 35kmiles on the front that I'll be replacing before the next trip in
> Feb.
>
> --
> Gary and Diana Berry
> 73 CL Stretch in Wa.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151562 is a reply to message #151560] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 13:43 |
Gary Worobec
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005
Karma: -1
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With the one ton front end the ride height issue can't be solved with the
OEM Pork Chop. You either must source alternate OEM angles or buy the
adjustable ones.
Secondly we need a stiffer shock absorber. I spoke with the Bilstein rep at
SEMA and they can do custom revalving for about $65.00 extra for each shock.
They just need to know the stock Bilstein that is used and how much stiffer
we want the compression and rebound. The other issue is that there may be
just too much leverage on the T-bar. I bottomed the shock several times on
some dips in the highway this trip. Never happened before. So I'm also
thinking of looking into a nitrogen charged shock that will add addtional
spring to the system. These are about the same physical size as the ones we
use now. Lots of issues to look at here. I'm not sure if the 4" spacer is
needed maybe something just big enough to clear the caliper. I can live with
the narrower track up front and it may be the solution to the wallowing
problem. My coach is now not handling well on winding mountain roads.
Frankly it's a bit of a pig. The front end is just too soft. Granted, my
ride height at the front needs to come up at least an inch but I'm not sure
that even if the ride height is correct that it will make the front end
stiffer and if it does will the T-bar take the addtional load before
snapping. With that said I certainly enjoy better braking and the piece of
mind that I'll not have to worry about front end bearing maintenance again.
Lots of trade offs to consider here.
Thanks
Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Kanomata" <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation
> The tire wear is not so much from the 1ton unit, but the nut that did
> not tighten the upper cam assy.
> We hear this cry frequently and I tell them its their fault or the
> alignment shop.
> The other issue is that you need to replace all the tie rod ends,
> Don't tell me they are good, as we have gone through several bibles
> where people swore on them and the result was a lie at the end.
> Relay and idler also need to be checked.
> There is one thing you all need to understand, the 1ton is like
> running the std unit wit a 2" spacer from the standpoint of changing
> the load location.
> When you accelerate and brake, the upper arm will be stressed more
> than before, and a careless job will show up as tire wear.
> There are some strange phenomena that happens that we do not
> understand, but Bill Hubler smiles and tells us it does not bother
> him.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Gary Berry <duallycc@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No noticeable wear as yet. I have about 3000 miles since the upgrade.
>> Running 3 year old BF Goodrich Commercial Radial T/As with about
>> 35kmiles on the front that I'll be replacing before the next trip in
>> Feb.
>>
>> --
>> Gary and Diana Berry
>> 73 CL Stretch in Wa.
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151575 is a reply to message #151565] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 15:33 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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At start time there Is no load
Twas not me. Think will work.
Gene
FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
On Dec 4, 2011, at 12:15 PM, "Gary Worobec" <gtw5@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Gene, with all due respect to your vast GMC knowledge, to try and do
> anything with a crescent wrench on those torsion bars is asking for a giant
> medical bill.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gary and Joanne Worobec
> 1973 GMC Glacier
> Anza, CA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gene Fisher" <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 12:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation
>
>
> You either must source alternate OEM angles or buy the
>
>> adjustable ones.
>>
>
> there is one group in the GMC community, that says you can just "pre-load"
> the torsion bar with a large crescent wrench and move the porkchop up one
> or more flats and then put the porkchop back...
>
> worth a try !
> gene
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151584 is a reply to message #151539] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 16:46 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Gene,
At the GMCMI Convention in Patterson, LA Stan Smith gave a presentation on the 1 ton installation. My statements below are based on
what he presented.
1) The distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounting points on OEM knuckle is 9 inches
2) The distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounting points on the 1 ton knuckle is 11 inches
3) The position of the lower control arm in relation to the ground controls the ride height
4) The position of the lower control arm in relation to the ground does not change to any appreciable degree on the 1 ton (Note 1)
5) OEM upper and lower control arms are parallel to each other (or close to it)
6) When you hit a bump the ball joints in the control arms move in parallel (or close to it)
7) The 1 ton modification does not move the upper control arm mounting point on the frame
8) Moving the ball joint mounting points 2 inches apart moves the upper ball joint end of the upper A frame upwards by 2 inches
9) The upper and lower control arms are no longer parallel to each other (or close to it)
10) The change in the angle of the upper control arm results in the upper ball joint moving in a different plane than in the OEM
11) When hitting a bump it will move in towards the frame
12) The top of the tire will move inwards towards the frame
One would have to measure everything carefully and do a lot of calculations to determine how much it would move. Then you'd have to
decide if it really made any appreciable difference.
Note 1 - I say this advisedly as do not have the drawings in front of me and I do not know where the axle is located in relation to
the lower ball joint on the 1 ton as compared to the OEM.
I may be full of it! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of mr.erfisher@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2011 3:44 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation
Why would there be if alignment was correct?
Gene
FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:27 AM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> I'd like to hear from other "one toner's" about any unusual tire wear. Comments anyone??
> --
> Larry :)
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151598 is a reply to message #151584] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 18:27 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Unless he has changed his name, that is Stan Edwards of Arvada, CO. He is also on the Board of Directors of GMCMI.
If anyone wants his email address let me know and I will forward it to you.
Emery Stora
On Dec 4, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Gene,
>
> At the GMCMI Convention in Patterson, LA Stan Smith gave a presentation on the 1 ton installation. My statements below are based on
> what he presented.
>
> 1) The distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounting points on OEM knuckle is 9 inches
> 2) The distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounting points on the 1 ton knuckle is 11 inches
> 3) The position of the lower control arm in relation to the ground controls the ride height
> 4) The position of the lower control arm in relation to the ground does not change to any appreciable degree on the 1 ton (Note 1)
> 5) OEM upper and lower control arms are parallel to each other (or close to it)
> 6) When you hit a bump the ball joints in the control arms move in parallel (or close to it)
> 7) The 1 ton modification does not move the upper control arm mounting point on the frame
> 8) Moving the ball joint mounting points 2 inches apart moves the upper ball joint end of the upper A frame upwards by 2 inches
> 9) The upper and lower control arms are no longer parallel to each other (or close to it)
> 10) The change in the angle of the upper control arm results in the upper ball joint moving in a different plane than in the OEM
> 11) When hitting a bump it will move in towards the frame
> 12) The top of the tire will move inwards towards the frame
>
> One would have to measure everything carefully and do a lot of calculations to determine how much it would move. Then you'd have to
> decide if it really made any appreciable difference.
>
> Note 1 - I say this advisedly as do not have the drawings in front of me and I do not know where the axle is located in relation to
> the lower ball joint on the 1 ton as compared to the OEM.
>
> I may be full of it! ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of mr.erfisher@gmail.com
> Sent: Monday, 5 December 2011 3:44 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation
>
> Why would there be if alignment was correct?
>
> Gene
>
> FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:27 AM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'd like to hear from other "one toner's" about any unusual tire wear. Comments anyone??
>> --
>> Larry :)
>> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
>> Menomonie, WI.
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151607 is a reply to message #151562] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 19:36 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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"" Granted, my
ride height at the front needs to come up at least an inch but I'm not sure
that even if the ride height is correct that it will make the front end
stiffer and if it does will the T-bar take the addtional load before
snapping. With that said I certainly enjoy better braking and the piece of
mind that I'll not have to worry about front end bearing maintenance again.
Lots of trade offs to consider here.
""
Ride height is not the same as ride rate. Simply bringing the front back up will not change the rate but certainly will result in dramatically higher spring stresses. Without measuring the increased effective tire patch from the control arm pivots, my guess is you may have reduced the rate about 30%. That may not necessarily be a problem but it is just a condition 
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151609 is a reply to message #151584] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 19:40 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Robert Mueller wrote on Sun, 04 December 2011 15:46 |
Gene,
At the GMCMI Convention in Patterson, LA Stan Smith gave a presentation on the 1 ton installation. My statements below are based on
what he presented.
1) The distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounting points on OEM knuckle is 9 inches
2) The distance between the upper and lower ball joint mounting points on the 1 ton knuckle is 11 inches
3) The position of the lower control arm in relation to the ground controls the ride height
4) The position of the lower control arm in relation to the ground does not change to any appreciable degree on the 1 ton (Note 1)
5) OEM upper and lower control arms are parallel to each other (or close to it)
6) When you hit a bump the ball joints in the control arms move in parallel (or close to it)
7) The 1 ton modification does not move the upper control arm mounting point on the frame
 Moving the ball joint mounting points 2 inches apart moves the upper ball joint end of the upper A frame upwards by 2 inches
9) The upper and lower control arms are no longer parallel to each other (or close to it)
10) The change in the angle of the upper control arm results in the upper ball joint moving in a different plane than in the OEM
11) When hitting a bump it will move in towards the frame
12) The top of the tire will move inwards towards the frame
One would have to measure everything carefully and do a lot of calculations to determine how much it would move. Then you'd have to
decide if it really made any appreciable difference.
Note 1 - I say this advisedly as do not have the drawings in front of me and I do not know where the axle is located in relation to
the lower ball joint on the 1 ton as compared to the OEM.
I may be full of it! 
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of mr.erfisher@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2011 3:44 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation
Why would there be if alignment was correct?
Gene
FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:27 AM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> I'd like to hear from other "one toner's" about any unusual tire wear. Comments anyone??
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Rob--all of those conditions will affect things such a camber curves and to some extent toe curves but I don't think those are major issues. The ride rate (and resultant roll rate) as well as torsion bar stresses are of much grater concern.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151639 is a reply to message #151564] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 22:13 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
That doesn't sound practical to me. If you look at the drawing I posted,
you'll see that the maximum angular displacement of the pork chop for
adjustment is about 10* (granted, that assumes that it's parallel to the
ground when all the way down on the nut plate -- a pretty safe assumption,
IIRC). That 10* is normally enough to move the ride height from too low to
too high -- maybe as much as an inch above & below.
Now if you rotate the pork chop a 60* flat, you're adjusted by AT LEAST
60*-10*=50* -- just imagine how much ride height change that would give!
Ken H.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 3:03 PM, gene Fisher wrote:
> You either must source alternate OEM angles or buy the
>
> > adjustable ones.
> >
>
> there is one group in the GMC community, that says you can just "pre-load"
> the torsion bar with a large crescent wrench and move the porkchop up one
> or more flats and then put the porkchop back...
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151643 is a reply to message #151639] |
Sun, 04 December 2011 22:27 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I guess that would depend on how twisted the bar is. There are 50+ kits in the field and Hubler has adapted the one ton torson bars. So guess there some options. So not sure if this is major problem. Mine is ok:)
Gene
FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Gene,
>
> That doesn't sound practical to me. If you look at the drawing I posted,
> you'll see that the maximum angular displacement of the pork chop for
> adjustment is about 10* (granted, that assumes that it's parallel to the
> ground when all the way down on the nut plate -- a pretty safe assumption,
> IIRC). That 10* is normally enough to move the ride height from too low to
> too high -- maybe as much as an inch above & below.
>
> Now if you rotate the pork chop a 60* flat, you're adjusted by AT LEAST
> 60*-10*=50* -- just imagine how much ride height change that would give!
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 3:03 PM, gene Fisher wrote:
>
>> You either must source alternate OEM angles or buy the
>>
>>> adjustable ones.
>>>
>>
>> there is one group in the GMC community, that says you can just "pre-load"
>> the torsion bar with a large crescent wrench and move the porkchop up one
>> or more flats and then put the porkchop back...
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151707 is a reply to message #151666] |
Mon, 05 December 2011 12:31 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
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Rob, The only stresses that the 1 ton mod increases are to one's wallet,
and to other's minds.
The thing is as near to bullet proof as any other upgrade we have for the
GMCs. The torsion bar issue is easily resolved. They are all made of some
form of spring steel, have a finite life, and are nearing the end of it.
The late model GM torsion bars will work with the conversion with a couple
of modifications to the lower control arm on one end and the cross member
on the other end. Is it hot down under? It is cold here. Just came back
last night from the GMC Cascaders Christmas rally in Ferndale, Wa. 7 miles
from the Canadian border. Met some of our Members from north of the border.
Strange lot. Don't like guns. Hard to relate to that for me anyway. Other
than that tiny tiny quirk, a very likable bunch. Wayne Jacobsen is planning
a Sea to Sea rolling Rally for Aug 2012 across Canada ending up in the
Maritime Provinces. should take about 6 weeks. Sounds like fun. All comers
deal, too.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 5:20 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I'm confused!
>
> According to Stan Edwards the 1 ton mod moves the front wheels outwards so
> they are in line with the rear wheels.
>
> The 2" aluminum front wheel spacers do the same thing.
>
> Does "torsion bar stresses are of much grater concern" mean that the 1 ton
> mod increases the stress on the torsion bar?
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob de Kruyff
>
> Rob--all of those conditions will affect things such a camber curves and
> to some extent toe curves but I don't think those are major
> issues. The ride rate (and resultant roll rate) as well as torsion bar
> stresses are of much grater concern.
> --
> Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] 1-Ton Installation [message #151708 is a reply to message #151666] |
Mon, 05 December 2011 12:39 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 05 December 2011 06:20 |
Bob,
I'm confused!
According to Stan Edwards the 1 ton mod moves the front wheels outwards so they are in line with the rear wheels.
The 2" aluminum front wheel spacers do the same thing.
Does "torsion bar stresses are of much grater concern" mean that the 1 ton mod increases the stress on the torsion bar?
Regards,
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob de Kruyff
Rob--all of those conditions will affect things such a camber curves and to some extent toe curves but I don't think those are major
issues. The ride rate (and resultant roll rate) as well as torsion bar stresses are of much grater concern.
--
Bob
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If you have to crank up the adjuster bolts to the point that you run out of travel, you are undoubtedly operating in a higher torsional stress range. The longer the lever arm the more you can exert on the torsion bar. The only offset would be potentially less torsional travel but I don't know if that is the case or not.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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