Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet
| [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149438] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 07:34  |
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This is the day after what we now call Veteran's Day. I grew up with my
mom and dad calling it Armistice Day. They had siblings in WW I. Of
course, that generation in WW II will soon be gone but the character of
those who served still inspires me today. Since then the US has engaged in
other actions that called for service and dedication. From the way things
look, we'll still be sending service personnel into harm's way for some
years to come. All of this is done so that we can retain our sense of
liberty and freedom.
However, I think some of us on the List need to be reminded that "freedom
ends where the next person's nose begins." I say this because of the
recent exchange of words that have flown around our digital domain in the
last few weeks. Rob's apology has caused me to think of this verbal
activity again just as Veteran's day and the conducting of my brother's
graveside service of yesterday reminds me of personal responsibility or
the lack thereof.
Rob's apology doesn't address the issue the led up to the eruption. If you
want a refresher, look back at messages about stainless headers and/or
Alcoa wheels.
Personally, I'm tired of lame excuses from anyone anywhere whether they
contribute a lot or not, have reached a certain age or hope to, or think
that being a veteran earns them freedom from personal responsibility and
self-control. As Ken Henderson pointed out in the strand talking about
stainless headers, this list exists to help people. It doesn't exist so
any one person can blatantly, and without respect, attack any one else.
What happened to understanding what being a gentleman was all about? Have
we come to the point in our country that "whatever goes" is the modus
operandi? It seems that "I" takes precedence over anyone else's honor
regardless of circumstances.
I was saddened to read what I did. I was grieved that the behavior was
tolerated. I was encouraged, however, that others responded to try and
bring civility back to this forum. However, I was again disappointed to
read a lame excuse for deplorable behavior.
Byron Songer
Louisville, KY
Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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--
Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149452 is a reply to message #149438] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 11:08  |
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hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Byron;
I agree.
This site is for information exchange.
Not for our personal egos
Thank You, Thank You
Howard
Alpine Ca.
PS This is why I "lurk" more then I comment.
I do not want the attacks or need them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Byron Songer" <bsonger@songerconsulting.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:34 AM
Subject: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet
> This is the day after what we now call Veteran's Day. I grew up with my
> mom and dad calling it Armistice Day. They had siblings in WW I. Of
> course, that generation in WW II will soon be gone but the character of
> those who served still inspires me today. Since then the US has engaged in
> other actions that called for service and dedication. From the way things
> look, we'll still be sending service personnel into harm's way for some
> years to come. All of this is done so that we can retain our sense of
> liberty and freedom.
>
> However, I think some of us on the List need to be reminded that "freedom
> ends where the next person's nose begins." I say this because of the
> recent exchange of words that have flown around our digital domain in the
> last few weeks. Rob's apology has caused me to think of this verbal
> activity again just as Veteran's day and the conducting of my brother's
> graveside service of yesterday reminds me of personal responsibility or
> the lack thereof.
>
> Rob's apology doesn't address the issue the led up to the eruption. If you
> want a refresher, look back at messages about stainless headers and/or
> Alcoa wheels.
>
> Personally, I'm tired of lame excuses from anyone anywhere whether they
> contribute a lot or not, have reached a certain age or hope to, or think
> that being a veteran earns them freedom from personal responsibility and
> self-control. As Ken Henderson pointed out in the strand talking about
> stainless headers, this list exists to help people. It doesn't exist so
> any one person can blatantly, and without respect, attack any one else.
>
> What happened to understanding what being a gentleman was all about? Have
> we come to the point in our country that "whatever goes" is the modus
> operandi? It seems that "I" takes precedence over anyone else's honor
> regardless of circumstances.
>
> I was saddened to read what I did. I was grieved that the behavior was
> tolerated. I was encouraged, however, that others responded to try and
> bring civility back to this forum. However, I was again disappointed to
> read a lame excuse for deplorable behavior.
>
> Byron Songer
> Louisville, KY
> Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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All is well with my Lord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149454 is a reply to message #149438] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 11:17 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Byron,
A key point Ken brought out -- we come here to talk GMC.
IMO, When we have a question, a solution or even a suggestion on sourcing a part we should be free to do so without fear of being pounded by the "support your GMC vendor (or else)" bully-stick.
If we are to recruit new members and maintain our coaches for the future we need to feel comfortable that we can speak openly without being bludgeoned or flamed.
The poor guy who brought us the opportunity to buy stainless steel headers had only posted five times -- do you think he will ever come back? How many more were turned off to our forum and hobby.
There may have been some inappropriate language -- but it had a message.
Dennis
| Byron Songer wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 07:34 |
This is the day after what we now call Veteran's Day. I grew up with my
mom and dad calling it Armistice Day. They had siblings in WW I. Of
course, that generation in WW II will soon be gone but the character of
those who served still inspires me today. Since then the US has engaged in
other actions that called for service and dedication. From the way things
look, we'll still be sending service personnel into harm's way for some
years to come. All of this is done so that we can retain our sense of
liberty and freedom.
However, I think some of us on the List need to be reminded that "freedom
ends where the next person's nose begins." I say this because of the
recent exchange of words that have flown around our digital domain in the
last few weeks. Rob's apology has caused me to think of this verbal
activity again just as Veteran's day and the conducting of my brother's
graveside service of yesterday reminds me of personal responsibility or
the lack thereof.
Rob's apology doesn't address the issue the led up to the eruption. If you
want a refresher, look back at messages about stainless headers and/or
Alcoa wheels.
Personally, I'm tired of lame excuses from anyone anywhere whether they
contribute a lot or not, have reached a certain age or hope to, or think
that being a veteran earns them freedom from personal responsibility and
self-control. As Ken Henderson pointed out in the strand talking about
stainless headers, this list exists to help people. It doesn't exist so
any one person can blatantly, and without respect, attack any one else.
What happened to understanding what being a gentleman was all about? Have
we come to the point in our country that "whatever goes" is the modus
operandi? It seems that "I" takes precedence over anyone else's honor
regardless of circumstances.
I was saddened to read what I did. I was grieved that the behavior was
tolerated. I was encouraged, however, that others responded to try and
bring civility back to this forum. However, I was again disappointed to
read a lame excuse for deplorable behavior.
Byron Songer
Louisville, KY
Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149462 is a reply to message #149454] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 12:28 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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| Dennis S wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 10:17 |
Byron,
A key point Ken brought out -- we come here to talk GMC.
IMO, When we have a question, a solution or even a suggestion on sourcing a part we should be free to do so without fear of being pounded by the "support your GMC vendor (or else)" bully-stick.
If we are to recruit new members and maintain our coaches for the future we need to feel comfortable that we can speak openly without being bludgeoned or flamed.
The poor guy who brought us the opportunity to buy stainless steel headers had only posted five times -- do you think he will ever come back? How many more were turned off to our forum and hobby.
There may have been some inappropriate language -- but it had a message.
Dennis
|
Agreed. But, keep in mind that if we DON'T support our vendors, and they go away, it will make it substantially more difficult to keep our coaches on the road. There is nothing wrong with trying to get a better deal, but there may be much more value in dealing with our vendors so they will continue to be there when we need them. I have spent more for certain items from our vendors on occasion for this very reason, not because I'm filthy rich (I'm NOT) and can afford it. Usually they are quite competitive with their pricing though. They also offer the right part the first time.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149464 is a reply to message #149462] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 12:45 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=Carl S. wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 12:28][quote
Agreed. But, keep in mind that if we DON'T support our vendors, and they go away, it will make it substantially more difficult to keep our coaches on the road. There is nothing wrong with trying to get a better deal, but there may be much more value in dealing with our vendors so they will continue to be there when we need them. I have spent more for certain items from our vendors on occasion for this very reason, not because I'm filthy rich (I'm NOT) and can afford it. Usually they are quite competitive with their pricing though. They also offer the right part the first time. [/quote]
Carl,
Yes, we should support them -- and they should support our efforts. As has been said, many of the specialty products they supply were originally developed or sourced by GMC owners.
Again, my issue is not with their pricing or their business model -- my issue is with the behavior.
I have no problem with a vendor telling us what they offer. But when we bring up a source for an item -- and it is not them -- they should not "blow-up" and demean folks.
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149465 is a reply to message #149464] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 13:09 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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The "blow up" you mention was not due to a new source for an item as I understand but a manufacturer breaking the supply chain and cutting out his distributor. If I understand correctly, this distributor had stocked and sold many of the manufacturers other items and had replaced defective parts at his own expense and was having much trouble being reimbursed by the manufacturer for defective parts as well as duplicate labor involved with the re work. If I was treated the same way by a manufacturer I would seek immediate compensation for defects, demand refund for my current inventory and find a new supplier. If the distribution chain is broken the customer will lose all access,support and leverage with the manufacturer. Many have said that this forum is not the place for such talk but issues like these need to be brought to the attention of GMC owners and buyers if we wish to continue being able to purchase mass produced(or limited production) parts designed for our coaches. T
he alternative is trial and error or custom build these parts. Most of us have do not have the time,ability,money or desire to do such.
Something to consider
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Sexton <dennisfsexton@aol.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:45:53
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet
[quote title=Carl S. wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 12:28][quote
Agreed. But, keep in mind that if we DON'T support our vendors, and they go away, it will make it substantially more difficult to keep our coaches on the road. There is nothing wrong with trying to get a better deal, but there may be much more value in dealing with our vendors so they will continue to be there when we need them. I have spent more for certain items from our vendors on occasion for this very reason, not because I'm filthy rich (I'm NOT) and can afford it. Usually they are quite competitive with their pricing though. They also offer the right part the first time. [/quote]
Carl,
Yes, we should support them -- and they should support our efforts. As has been said, many of the specialty products they supply were originally developed or sourced by GMC owners.
Again, my issue is not with their pricing or their business model -- my issue is with the behavior.
I have no problem with a vendor telling us what they offer. But when we bring up a source for an item -- and it is not them -- they should not "blow-up" and demean folks.
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149466 is a reply to message #149465] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 13:26 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Years ago when my children were little, we were traveling and came across a
dead porcupine lying beside the road. The kids had never seen one, and
wanted to stop. So, I braked to a stop in the road. (no traffic for miles),
and we all piled out to see the road kill. The carcass was quite bloated in
the summer heat. My son rounded up a stick and wanted to turn it over to
see what the other side looked like. When he poked the dead critter, It
suddenly deflated and the stench was unforgettable. That ended our
porcupine investigation, and I can still recall that smell today, and I
think that both of my kids can also. Sometimes dead things are better left
to decompose on their own. Please consider this when persisting in
rehashing what should be in my opinion a DEAD ISSUE.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:09 AM, <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> The "blow up" you mention was not due to a new source for an item as I
> understand but a manufacturer breaking the supply chain and cutting out his
> distributor. If I understand correctly, this distributor had stocked and
> sold many of the manufacturers other items and had replaced defective parts
> at his own expense and was having much trouble being reimbursed by the
> manufacturer for defective parts as well as duplicate labor involved with
> the re work. If I was treated the same way by a manufacturer I would seek
> immediate compensation for defects, demand refund for my current inventory
> and find a new supplier. If the distribution chain is broken the customer
> will lose all access,support and leverage with the manufacturer. Many have
> said that this forum is not the place for such talk but issues like these
> need to be brought to the attention of GMC owners and buyers if we wish to
> continue being able to purchase mass produced(or limited production) parts
> designed for our coaches. T
> he alternative is trial and error or custom build these parts. Most of us
> have do not have the time,ability,money or desire to do such.
>
> Something to consider
>
> Sully
> 77 royale
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Sexton <dennisfsexton@aol.com>
> Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:45:53
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet
>
>
>
> [quote title=Carl S. wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 12:28][quote
> Agreed. But, keep in mind that if we DON'T support our vendors, and they
> go away, it will make it substantially more difficult to keep our coaches
> on the road. There is nothing wrong with trying to get a better deal, but
> there may be much more value in dealing with our vendors so they will
> continue to be there when we need them. I have spent more for certain
> items from our vendors on occasion for this very reason, not because I'm
> filthy rich (I'm NOT) and can afford it. Usually they are quite
> competitive with their pricing though. They also offer the right part the
> first time. [/quote]
>
>
> Carl,
>
> Yes, we should support them -- and they should support our efforts. As has
> been said, many of the specialty products they supply were originally
> developed or sourced by GMC owners.
>
> Again, my issue is not with their pricing or their business model -- my
> issue is with the behavior.
> I have no problem with a vendor telling us what they offer. But when we
> bring up a source for an item -- and it is not them -- they should not
> "blow-up" and demean folks.
>
> Dennis
> --
> Dennis S
> 73 Painted Desert 230
> Germantown, TN
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149467 is a reply to message #149465] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 13:46 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| sgltrac wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 13:09 |
The "blow up" you mention was not due to a new source for an item as I understand but a manufacturer breaking the supply chain and cutting out his distributor. If I understand correctly, this distributor had stocked and sold many of the manufacturers other items and had replaced defective parts at his own expense and was having much trouble being reimbursed by the manufacturer for defective parts as well as duplicate labor involved with the re work. If I was treated the same way by a manufacturer I would seek immediate compensation for defects, demand refund for my current inventory and find a new supplier. If the distribution chain is broken the customer will lose all access,support and leverage with the manufacturer. Many have said that this forum is not the place for such talk but issues like these need to be brought to the attention of GMC owners and buyers if we wish to continue being able to purchase mass produced(or limited production) parts designed for our coaches. T
he alternative is trial and error or custom build these parts. Most of us have do not have the time,ability,money or desire to do such.
Something to consider
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
|
Sully,
I appreciate and respect your perspective.
When we are communicating with both email and forum -- and threads become disconnected -- we can often "hear" things out of context.
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
[Updated on: Sat, 12 November 2011 13:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149474 is a reply to message #149469] |
Sat, 12 November 2011 14:40 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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| Gary Berry wrote on Sat, 12 November 2011 14:56 |
I really don't care much for this particular stuff. It's nice to
have the vendors and there are some neat products out there that I
still have yet to purchase. But, I think the thing that has been lost is that MannyT, HalK, and DanG (we haven't heard from him since the 4th) should each get an apology (either public or private) for being called out by this particular vendor. Other than that, I'm done with this subject.
--
Gary and Diana Berry
73 CL Stretch in Wa
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Couldn't agree more. This whole topic has been nothing but an embarrassment for this community. Unfortunately the same issue comes up time and again, although usually with much less vitriol. I can't wait for it to go away and I sincerely hope that very few newbies or lurkers draw conclusions from it about our usually outstanding, and upstanding, community. I also hope we don't lose some very good people from our usual discussions. That would be the biggest travesty for us all.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149539 is a reply to message #149474] |
Sun, 13 November 2011 07:21 |
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The "aim" of my post wasn't at one person. I was speaking to us all. A few
times I've seen civility and respect take a back seat when it comes to
expressing opinions. Just because we have computers and can hit "send"
doesn't mean we have the license to peck out what we want while throwing
personal responsibility to the wind.
As others have mentioned, I, too, know what it's like to give out
information only to have a person walk out and buy somewhere else. I also
know what it's like for that person to come back after the purchase seeking
assistance because the employee of that vendor couldn't help.
However, I also know how our attitudes have changed how business functions.
In 1960 we didn't know of the "big box" stores. We went to our local
hardware store, local appliance store or our local retailer to purchase
products. The American appetite for "give it to me cheap" has won out. We
seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of business. That rule is as
follows. Three things can be offered; quality products, low pricing and
excellent service but all three are not available at the same place.
I acquired common parts locally. Because I'm not a shade tree mechanic, I
also paid for someone else to keep my coach in good shape. For that which I
couldn't acquire at NAPA or have my mechanic do, I purchase parts from
Applied GMC or took my coach to Southland Motorhome Center in Georgia to let
a GMC specialist "do his thing."
In my book it all comes down to this. If business is so rotten and the
customers so unfaithful take the next opportunity to sell your inventory and
do something else more worthwhile. Just don't vent anger and drive potential
clientele away. That is the worst business practice of all.
Above all -- let's all watch what we post and be more considerate of our
behavior. That used to be the American way and I'm sure striving to make it
so again. Integrity is still a value to maintain.
--
Byron Songer
Louisville, KY
http://www.gmceast.com
Sights to see and places to stay
Find or submit a
GMCer recommendation
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
Jeremy wrote:
> Couldn't agree more. This whole topic has been nothing but an embarrassment
> for this community. Unfortunately the same issue comes up time and again,
> although usually with much less vitriol. I can't wait for it to go away and I
> sincerely hope that very few newbies or lurkers draw conclusions from it about
> our usually outstanding, and upstanding, community. I also hope we don't lose
> some very good people from our usual discussions. That would be the biggest
> travesty for us all.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Knezek
> 1976 Glenbrook
> Birmingham, AL
_______________________________________________
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--
Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Freedom, Responsibility and the GMCnet [message #149542 is a reply to message #149539] |
Sun, 13 November 2011 08:44 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Well said Byron.
Tom Eckert N2VWN
1973 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Byron Songer
<bsonger@songerconsulting.net>wrote:
> The "aim" of my post wasn't at one person. I was speaking to us all. A few
> times I've seen civility and respect take a back seat when it comes to
> expressing opinions. Just because we have computers and can hit "send"
> doesn't mean we have the license to peck out what we want while throwing
> personal responsibility to the wind.
>
> As others have mentioned, I, too, know what it's like to give out
> information only to have a person walk out and buy somewhere else. I also
> know what it's like for that person to come back after the purchase seeking
> assistance because the employee of that vendor couldn't help.
>
> However, I also know how our attitudes have changed how business functions.
> In 1960 we didn't know of the "big box" stores. We went to our local
> hardware store, local appliance store or our local retailer to purchase
> products. The American appetite for "give it to me cheap" has won out. We
> seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of business. That rule is as
> follows. Three things can be offered; quality products, low pricing and
> excellent service but all three are not available at the same place.
>
> I acquired common parts locally. Because I'm not a shade tree mechanic, I
> also paid for someone else to keep my coach in good shape. For that which I
> couldn't acquire at NAPA or have my mechanic do, I purchase parts from
> Applied GMC or took my coach to Southland Motorhome Center in Georgia to
> let
> a GMC specialist "do his thing."
>
> In my book it all comes down to this. If business is so rotten and the
> customers so unfaithful take the next opportunity to sell your inventory
> and
> do something else more worthwhile. Just don't vent anger and drive
> potential
> clientele away. That is the worst business practice of all.
>
> Above all -- let's all watch what we post and be more considerate of our
> behavior. That used to be the American way and I'm sure striving to make it
> so again. Integrity is still a value to maintain.
>
> --
>
> Byron Songer
> Louisville, KY
> http://www.gmceast.com
>
> Sights to see and places to stay
> Find or submit a
> GMCer recommendation
> http://www.gmceast.com/travel
>
>
>
> Jeremy wrote:
>
> > Couldn't agree more. This whole topic has been nothing but an
> embarrassment
> > for this community. Unfortunately the same issue comes up time and again,
> > although usually with much less vitriol. I can't wait for it to go away
> and I
> > sincerely hope that very few newbies or lurkers draw conclusions from it
> about
> > our usually outstanding, and upstanding, community. I also hope we don't
> lose
> > some very good people from our usual discussions. That would be the
> biggest
> > travesty for us all.
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> > Jeremy Knezek
> > 1976 Glenbrook
> > Birmingham, AL
>
>
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