| RV antifreeze [message #147275] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 09:29  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I was in Menards a couple of days ago. They currently have RV antifreeze at $1.29 per gallon.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: RV antifreeze [message #147302 is a reply to message #147275] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 14:03  |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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Since RV antifreeze is relatively nontoxic, and seems to be quite fairly priced, why do we keep using ethylene glycol based antifreezes in our cars? I imagine that there are other additives that are required, but could they be incorporated into the mix? Wasn't there a nontoxic antifreeze named Sierra available a while back?
As a veterinarian, we do see the occasional animal that has ingested antifreeze, and it's not a pretty way for an animal (or child) to die.
Perhaps any chemists or engineers can chime in.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV antifreeze [message #147305 is a reply to message #147302] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 14:19 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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On Oct 21, 2011, at 1:03 PM, George Rudawsky wrote:
>
>
> Since RV antifreeze is relatively nontoxic, and seems to be quite fairly priced, why do we keep using ethylene glycol based antifreezes in our cars? I imagine that there are other additives that are required, but could they be incorporated into the mix? Wasn't there a nontoxic antifreeze named Sierra available a while back?
>
> As a veterinarian, we do see the occasional animal that has ingested antifreeze, and it's not a pretty way for an animal (or child) to die.
>
> Perhaps any chemists or engineers can chime in.
Propylene glycol antifreeze has been used for many years. When I worked for Dow Chemical back in the 1960's they marketed a propylene glycol antifreeze for food coolers called Dowfrost.
It is still sold under that name. It has also been used in automobiles over the years. I believe that Amsoil is selling a version as does Sierra.
It is usually used as antifreeze where ethylene glycol would be inappropriate, such as in food-processing systems or in water pipes in homes where incidental ingestion may be possible.
Some drawbacks are:
1. Propylene glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat, forming lactic acid. If not properly inhibited, this fluid can be very corrosive so pHbuffering agents are often added to propylene glycol, to prevent acidic corrosion of metal components. The use in automobiles usually mans that the inhibitors won't last as long as the ones in ethylene glycol so it would have to be changed more frequently.
2. The freezing point is not as low as ethylene glycol antifreeze and the boiling point is not as high as ethylene glycol antifreeze.
3. Propylene glycol solutions cannot be tested using specific gravity because of ambiguous results (40% and 100% solutions have the same specific gravity as do some other percentages).
4. It is generally quite a bit more expensive than ethylene glycol antifreeze.
Most manufacturers of ethylene glycol antifreeze are now adding a small amount of chemical to make the antifreeze have a bad taste to animals instead of the normal sweet taste. This is said to prevent a lot of animal poisoning.
If one wants to use a propylene glycol antifreeze in your engine DO NOT use the RV antifreeze that is used in water tanks. It DOES NOT have the proper inhibitors for engine use.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV antifreeze [message #147306 is a reply to message #147305] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 14:39 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| emerystora wrote on Fri, 21 October 2011 15:19 |
Propylene glycol antifreeze has been used for many years. When I worked for Dow Chemical back in the 1960's they marketed a propylene glycol antifreeze for food coolers called Dowfrost.
It is still sold under that name. It has also been used in automobiles over the years. I believe that Amsoil is selling a version as does Sierra.
It is usually used as antifreeze where ethylene glycol would be inappropriate, such as in food-processing systems or in water pipes in homes where incidental ingestion may be possible.
Some drawbacks are:
1. Propylene glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat, forming lactic acid. If not properly inhibited, this fluid can be very corrosive so pHbuffering agents are often added to propylene glycol, to prevent acidic corrosion of metal components. The use in automobiles usually mans that the inhibitors won't last as long as the ones in ethylene glycol so it would have to be changed more frequently.
2. The freezing point is not as low as ethylene glycol antifreeze and the boiling point is not as high as ethylene glycol antifreeze.
3. Propylene glycol solutions cannot be tested using specific gravity because of ambiguous results (40% and 100% solutions have the same specific gravity as do some other percentages).
4. It is generally quite a bit more expensive than ethylene glycol antifreeze.
Most manufacturers of ethylene glycol antifreeze are now adding a small amount of chemical to make the antifreeze have a bad taste to animals instead of the normal sweet taste. This is said to prevent a lot of animal poisoning.
If one wants to use a propylene glycol antifreeze in your engine DO NOT use the RV antifreeze that is used in water tanks. It DOES NOT have the proper inhibitors for engine use.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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Emery,
Thanks, I have been wondering about that for - Oh - about twenty years now. In the late 80's California was going to outlaw EG based coolant. (Supposedly because there had been California Condors were found next to puddles of leaked engine coolant.) There was a bid harrang and we did a bunch of gasket material testing for compatibility and then it all just went away.
I guess I know why now. I would have pried the lid open on a can of worms that nobody wanted to deal with - even the Sierra Club.
Thanks
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: RV antifreeze [message #147309 is a reply to message #147275] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 16:04 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Thanks for the information, I assumed there had to be some reason. Adding a bitter taste to the antifreeze sounds like a great idea that I hope is adopted industry wide.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV antifreeze [message #147349 is a reply to message #147337] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 01:10 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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If you have a water heater bypass installed that is all you will need.
A the last rally I had a a fresh water tank leak. I traced it down to a 2 way RV selector valve I have on the tank drain. It selects whether the water to the pump comes from the tank or the one gallon RV antifreeze bottle. The cheap RV one is now replaced with a good $25.00 USA one made by Apolo and purchased from WW Grainger.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV antifreeze [message #147423 is a reply to message #147302] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 19:47 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I'm neither (does broadcast engineeer count?) but I suspect that RV antifreeze won't like 250 degreesF very much, and may be inconsistent with the water pump lube which is in glycol antifreeze.
As a dog nut, I support the mandated bitter taste additive which more and more States are requiring in glycol bnased antifreeze.
--johnny
________________________________
From: George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] RV antifreeze
Since RV antifreeze is relatively nontoxic, and seems to be quite fairly priced, why do we keep using ethylene glycol based antifreezes in our cars? I imagine that there are other additives that are required, but could they be incorporated into the mix? Wasn't there a nontoxic antifreeze named Sierra available a while back?
As a veterinarian, we do see the occasional animal that has ingested antifreeze, and it's not a pretty way for an animal (or child) to die.
Perhaps any chemists or engineers can chime in.
--
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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