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| [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape) [message #146659] |
Sat, 15 October 2011 23:03  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
The original version of the email below was sent in to the GMC net back in June of this year and addressed only PREVENTION. I have
combined it with another email that addressed WARNING and EXTINGUISHING and added ESCAPE and a link to photos on the Photo Site
entitled BURNED GMC's.
My intent is to put all the information available in one place for easy reference.
This document should be considered a work in progress; anytime anyone uncovers something new it should be added.
Regards,
Rob
------Original Message-----
G'day,
I took all the messages regarding GMC fires and reviewed a bunch I had in my "Fire" folder and came up with the following. It is a
summary of GMC fires. It does not provide explanations or reasons for each item because if it did it would grow to a much larger
document and would not be a summary!
It should be noted that these are NOT my ideas or suggestions; I learned them from others here on the GMC net and from talking with
GMC owners at rallies, conventions, etc. I have not accredited the suggestions as quite a few of them came from multiple sources and
I don't want to create any problems. I've merely assembled them all in one place for future reference.
PLEASE feel free to criticize, add to, comment on, tell me I'm full of s&#t, whatever; I'm thick skinned! If anybody has any links
to examples of the items listed below let me know and I'll incorporate them into the list.
If this list helps prevent the loss of a single GMC it's a winner!
BTW complying with every step under PREVENTION DOES NOT negate the need for a good fire extinguishing system on your GMC, be it
automatic or manual! Murphy is alive and well and S#1T HAPPENS!
FIRE PREVENTION
ELECTRICAL
Install battery cut-off switch on all batteries: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=39553
Prevent Nichrome charging circuit wire from melting wiring harness behind dash
Install APC: http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
Modify circuit as per JimB: http://www.gmccoop.com/alt__light_circuit_refit.htm
Use proper conductor routing to keep wires from contacting hot exhaust or vibrating against possible grounding points
Use fusible links, circuit breakers, or fuses on components fed directly from batteries
Use tight, well insulated, positive (+) connections
Power to electrical fuel pumps routed through a low/no oil pressure sender
FUEL
No rubber lines between mechanical fuel pump and carb inlet or anywhere near the engine or hot surfaces
Verify / install a Quadrajet inlet filter
Install metal aftermarket filter at mechanical fuel pump inlet
No plastic fuel filters near the engine or in the generator compartment
OIL
Install fitting in transmission vent and run line outside frame to a catch can
Inspect / verify rubber lines to / from engine oil cooler near exhaust manifold are in good shape
Replace rubber lines near exhaust manifold with non combustible type
Repair oil leaks promptly
Inspect transmission oil cooler (OEM and owner installed) and lines regularly
EXHAUST
Install metal pans above mufflers on early coaches without foam/aluminum sub floor
Verify gasket between intake manifold and carb heat is not leaking
Repair exhaust leaks so hot gasses can't impinge on flammable surfaces
MISCELLANEOUS
Inspect top of engine regularly to make sure critters haven't built nests
Install screen across air filter intake so critters can't get in
Keep top of engine clean and free of grease / oil
Don't pull over on side of road if there is high grass as hot mufflers may cause a fire
Don't pull over to the side of the road if the coach IS on fire - the grass WILL ignite
Block crossover to stop gas boiling out of carb upon shutdown and causing fire
Prevent coolant leaks misting / spraying on hot exhaust manifolds
Provide access through the wheel well liners for fire extinguisher access
Install a Fire Port in step up to cockpit: http://www.marineeast.com/a_sch/sch_det.asp?cid=13&pid=13_01
FIRE WARNING
Install smoke detectors - test regularly and replace batteries as required - those with lights would be the best.
I have a fire detector on the ceiling just forward of the bedroom area and I have a CO detector on the wall in the bedroom area. I
figure the most danger is when you are sleeping and might have the furnace running.
As for detectors, I have a combo in the back bedroom. That is where you want to hear it first. If mine sounds while underway I can
smell exhaust, so it's working. Probably need another up front by the engine.
FIRE EXTINQUISHING
TYPES OF FIRES
Type A fires are solid combustibles like paper, wood, carpeting etc.
Type B fires are liquid / gaseous fires like gasoline, oil, propane, etc.
Type C fires are "ENERGIZED" electrical fires. If you turn off the electric, then the fire is no longer a type C fire. Also low
voltage electrical like 12 volt systems are NOT classified as Type C fires.
Type D fires are metal fires like magnesium
FIRE EXTINGUISHERS TYPES AND COMMENTS
GAS
Gas ext are good for instant suppressants, but hot metal can reignite that fuel.
The problem with Gas type extinguishers besides being non environment friendly, is they need to fill a space to work longer than the
minute or so that the gas blast can sustain. In most cases the fire is started because the metal is hot and the fuel or oil ignited
from the heat. The gas does nothing to cool this.
CO2
Gas (CO2 and Halon) works by starving the fire for oxygen. In an open space, the oxygen returns quickly. It was used in closed
computer rooms because it would not ruin the electronics the way dry chemicals or water would. In computer rooms, it comes with a
warning before it deploys--starving the fire for oxygen also starves people for oxygen.
HALON
Halon (including Halon 1211 and Halon 1301), is a gaseous agent that inhibits the chemical reaction of the fire. Classes B&C for
lower weight fire extinguishers (2.3 kg; under 9 lbs) and A:B:C for heavier weights (4.1-7.7 kg; 9-;17 lbs). It was banned from new
production, except for military use, as of January 1, 1994 as its properties contribute to ozone depletion and long atmospheric
lifetime, usually 400 years. Halon was completely banned in Europe. In Australia too.
FOAM
AFFF is an organic, non toxic, non corrosive, water based hi tech fire retardant recognized and used because of it's qualities by
the aircraft, military, marine and professional commercial community.
AFFF sounds like the "best" fire retardant. But, I understand AFFF may have an issue with colder temperatures. Is there a solution
for GMC'ers who live where it freezes?
AFFF is a water based liquid so yes, it will freeze but the cold does not effect the nitrogen propellant as much as an air
propellant so as the cylinder heats up from the fire and thaws the AFFF, when 286 deg. is reached, the cylinder will deploy and the
AFFF goes right back to it's fire fighting liquid state. So yes, it's OK to let it freeze because it will come back good as new.
Foams may work if they can extinguish and cool the metal before the foam falls off the fire location.
Foam is excellent on a fuel fire because it does not flow and the burning fuel can't float through it.
Foam is best, but you do have to remove it in the winter. The freezing point is not the problem as I understand it, but rather temps
down closer to the single digits.
America's Test Kitchen tested fire extinguishers and chose the Kidde FX10K, available at Lowes for $18.97. It is baking soda, so
after the fire is out, you clean up the kitchen without damage to the tools/skillet/range, etc.
DRY CHEMICAL
Dry chemical will always be followed up by water, and thus it will always cause corrosion damage. But it's better than nothing. As
long, that is, as the chemical hasn't solidified in the bottom of the extinguisher tank.
I have repaired several early 70s VW busses that had engine compartment fires that were extinguished with dry chemicals. What a hell
of a mess that turned into. Minor fires look to be simple to repair turn into wire harness goose chases, bearing failures in
alternators and generators, carbs literally eaten up by the effects of dry chemical and water.
You need to look at the damage caused by Dry Chemical fire extinguishers. Everything, and I mean everything, that came close to
being contacted with the dry chemical was destroyed. The only thing I reused was the headers and they are full of deep pits.
WATER
Water on a fuel fire is not a good idea, unless you can really bury it in water. In Ken's case, water carried the burning fuel to
other parts under the coach.
A water Spray/fog system would both put out the fire and cool the metal. Foam is intended to be sprayed over a fuel pool on the
ground to cover it and extinguish it. With our small extinguisher supply, your aim will have to be pretty accurate because you will
be out of extinguishant product pretty fast and if the metal did not cool enough to prevent re-ignition, the flame will come back.
The coach carries a 30 gallon tank; would it be worth a hookup to a fogger or sprayer under the hood? Even a hose would be helpful
and 30 gallons will last a lot longer then the 20 second spurt of the fire extinguisher. Of course an automated fogger/spray would
be best. By the time you think about what has to be done, it is already being done.
GENERAL
But your dry chemical will keep the fire out from your stove, gen set, wheel well, you must keep a portable fire suppressant.
Otherwise you are fixing one problem, creating a new one.
If you don't suppress the fire in it's infancy with non corrosive fire fighting agents, you are in for a long hard road. I have seen
first hand what Halon, and CO2 and fire fighting foam can do, and I have repaired damage from dry chemical. I will take door # 1, 2,
or 3, and leave the dry chemical to life saving purposes only.
FIRE EXTINGUISHER SOURCES
Listed alphabetically:
Applied GMC: http://www.appliedgmc.com/level.itml/icOid/1033
COOP: http://www.gmccoop.com/index.htm
Kidde: http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/Assets/Kitchen%20Fire%20Extinguisher%20(Secondary%20Protection).pdf
Mac The Fire Guy: http://www.macthefireguy.com/fire_safety_products.htm
FIRE ESCAPE
Get a glass punch or a rescue hammer with a hard point, etc., and make a dedicated holder for it right where it's needed. Hit the
glass at the edge and it will shatter, push out the shattered glass with a pillow, then use your coaches ladder to safely step down
to the ground and go to the rally point.
Just saw this post & it made me think of something I saw recently. I wonder if this would be worth it; It's cheap enough.
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/car/8e0c/#tabs
Last, but really important. Fire Drills!!! Underway, cooking, and asleep. Firemen don't panic because we train and train. When the
real deal happens (hopefully never) we fall back on it. You and your travel partners can too.
BURNED GMC'S
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5923
If anyone has any more that they would like me to put in this album please send them to me.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape) [message #146671 is a reply to message #146659] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 08:54  |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
Karma: 0
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Has this been mentioned?
Fire Extinuishers accessable from outside of coach!
The coach has filled with smoke, you've pulled over, gotten everyone out. Now you can't get back to the extinguisher.
So maybe one in the LP bay, one near the genset and one just inside the door?
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
[Updated on: Sun, 16 October 2011 08:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape) [message #146680 is a reply to message #146673] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 09:53 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Rob, I am going to mention one more thing here that I have noticed on a
number of the coaches that I have worked on. Many of the batteries available
now are what I call a dual post design. They have top posts as well as
latemodel style front posts. What caused the fire in the coach that I am
currently repairing for Paul Hoge is the 35 year old battery box finally
gave up the ghost and allowed the front battery to tip forward even
though it had a hold down, once the floor of the box collapsed. The positive
battery post, the late model one, made direct contact with the park/turn
lamp socket which is a dead short to ground with no conductors. It heated
all the ground wires in the headlight harness to red heat instantly, melted
the insulation from all the other conductors in the harness, and cascaded
from there. It burned back to the headlight switch, the back of the fuse
panel, the horns, the relays, and the windshield washer pump. In case you
haven't checked your battery trays lately, It ought to be very high on your
checklist when you do your walkaround inspection of your coach before you
start it.(You do perform a walkaround don't you?) Reach in to the battery
area and give 'em a shake. If they move around, fix it before you drive it.
These 35 year old relics are much more maintenence intensive than our
currrent mess of cookie cutter cars. Once a fire like the one I am repairing
gets started, you have about 1 or 2 minutes at the most to save your bacon.
Paul had the presence of mind to grab the smoking harness and yank it out by
the roots, opening the circuit. He was darn lucky that the whole coach
didn't go up in flames with them and their two yorkies with it. Check those
batteries often.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 7:23 AM, R.D. Hart <regor5556@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I wondered about the rubber fuel line from the steel line on the front
> crossmember to the fuel pump. Seems like something from the road could jump
> up and nick it causing fuel to spray on the exhaust.
> How about something as simple as covering it with a piece of heater hose to
> give it more pretection?
>
> Also, I like the battery shutoff switches. Anyone who has done this know
> how many feet of cable this would require? Thanks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape) [message #146683 is a reply to message #146671] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 10:11 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Dave,
I'll include the following statement:
Hand held fire extinguishers should be located where they readily accessible.
I don't know about other GMC's but in Avions there isn't enough room in the LP compartment for a hand held fire extinguisher.
There is room behind the Onan as the house batteries in an Avion are inside the coach under the bed on the passenger side.
On other GMC's I believe there's batteries in the compartment behind the Onan.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of dave silva
Sent: Monday, 17 October 2011 12:55 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape)
Has this been mentioned?
Fire Extinuishers accessable from outside of coach!
The coach has filled smoke, you've pulled over, gotten everyone out. Now you can't get back to the extinguisher.
So maybe one in LP bay, one near the genset and one just inside the door.
--
Dave
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape) [message #146687 is a reply to message #146683] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 10:48 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
Karma: 0
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Different things would work in different coaches. On Marsha's coach there was room behind the fridge vent. There might also be room inside the spare tire if you made the tire cover easy to remove.
I think folks need to seriously rehearse the different scenarios and visualize what it would actually look like in their situation.
More than likely you are going to evacuate first and then fight the fire from the outside.
Would it be practical to mount an extinguisher to the inside of the entrance door?
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire ( Prevention - Warning - Extinguishing - Escape) [message #146712 is a reply to message #146687] |
Sun, 16 October 2011 17:42 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Dave,
I will respond to each one of your comments individually.
I agree, "Different things would work on different coaches" which is why I added; "Hand held fire extinguishers should be located
where they readily accessible" and did not note specific locations, I reckon we can leave that up to the individual owners.
"On Marsha's coach there was room behind the fridge vent." I don't think that's a good place to a hand held fire extinguisher as
fridges are a place where fires can start.
"There might also be room inside the spare tire if you made the tire cover easy to remove." Unfortunately the spare on a GMC mounts
to the carrier with the part that goes over the disks and drums inwards. You'd have to turn it around or modify the mount to put
anything in there. Also the extinguisher could be partially exposed to the weather.
"I think folks need to seriously rehearse the different scenarios and visualize what it would actually look like in their
situation." See ESCAPE; "Last, but really important. Fire Drills!!! Underway, cooking, and asleep. Firemen don't panic because we
train and train. When the real deal happens (hopefully never) we fall back on it. You and your travel partners can too."
"More than likely you are going to evacuate first and then fight the fire from the outside." Agreed, however if you locate "Hand
held fire extinguishers should be located where they readily accessible" you grab them on the way out. Mine are located at the base
of the driver and passenger seat.
"Would it be practical to mount an extinguisher to the inside of the entrance door?" If it was located close to the hinges it
probably would be OK, however, it would add additional weight to the door.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: dave silva
Different things would work in different coaches. On Marsha's coach there was room behind the fridge vent. There might also be
room inside the spare tire if you made the tire cover easy to remove.
I think folks need to seriously rehearse the different scenarios and visualize what it would actually look like in their situation.
More than likely you are going to evacuate first and then fight the fire from the outside.
Would it be practical to mount an extinguisher to the inside of the entrance door?
--
Dave
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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