Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material
| [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146090] |
Mon, 10 October 2011 17:50  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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G'day,
Below you will find the email I sent to Cotronics regarding filling the crossover with one of their products.
They ain't takin' no chances! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
PS - I have not heard from HardBlok yet.
________________________________________
From: sales [mailto:sales@cotronics.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2011 1:17 AM
To: Rob Mueller
Cc: Errol Tunley
Subject: RE: Ceramic materials
Dear Rob,
Thank you for your patience.
We have not tested our materials in engines.
We can only recommend testing to determine suitability for your needs.
You can call our Australian distributor for further assistance:
Measure Tech
Errol Tunley
03-9338-8467
sales@measuretech.com.au
Best regards,
Kelvin Ortega
Cotronics Corp.
Ph: 718-788-5533
Fax: 718-788-5538
________________________________________
From: Rob Mueller [mailto:robmueller@iinet.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 11:53 PM
To: sales
Subject: Ceramic materials
Hi,
I have a 1975 GMC Motorhome that is powered by an Oldsmobile 455 Toronado engine. It has a cast iron intake manifold that has a
large crossover chamber under the carburetor that channels exhaust gases to warm the carb.
This heated crossover chamber is causing vapor lock problems with Ethanol fuels. Most owners fill the crossover with aluminum or
zinc; however, that entails finding a foundry to fill it.
I would like to try one of your products to fill the crossover chamber.
In conjunction with your ceramic materials I will install stainless steel block off plates between the heads and the intake manifold
to keep the ceramic material from being exposed directly to exhaust gases.
My main concern is that differences in the rate and amount of expansion between your ceramic material and the cast iron manifold
will cause problems.
Do you think any of your products will work in this application?
Please advise.
Thank you,
Rob Mueller
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146120 is a reply to message #146090] |
Mon, 10 October 2011 22:07  |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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I imagine that they do have a good point in today's liability happy world. Generally, the coefficient of expansion of ceramic materials is lower than that of metal, so it may work, but testing would make sense.
If any old, cracked manifolds would be laying around, it would be nice to see how this product and the HardBlok would work. It does seem like a good way to solve the problem if someone doesn't want to do the Rockwell manifold.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146125 is a reply to message #146120] |
Mon, 10 October 2011 22:39 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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George,
The exhaust crossover is located under the intake plenum.
The intake manifold develops cracks in the bottom of the intake plenum which open into the exhaust crossover allowing exhaust gas to
enter the intake stream.
The intake also cracks at the bottom of the crossover allowing exhaust gases to enter the lifter valley.
If the bottom of the intake plenum and the bottom of the crossover are both cracked engine oil vapors can be sucked into the intake
stream along with exhaust gases.
In theory if the crossover is plugged at the heads with stainless steel block off plates engine exhaust can no longer be sucked into
the intake gas stream, however, engine oil vapors can be sucked into the crossover and then into the intake plenum.
Filling the crossover with a material seals the cracks between the intake plenum and the crossover as well as those between the
crossover and the lifter valley.
If the rate of expansion and the total amount of expansion of the cast iron is greater than that of the ceramic material the cast
iron could pull away from the ceramic material and a leak path for oil vapors be created through cracks in the bottom of the
crossover, around the ceramic material, and through the cracks in the bottom of the intake plenum.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: George Rudawsky
I imagine that they do have a good point in today's liability happy world. Generally, the coefficient of expansion of ceramic
materials is lower than that of metal, so it may work, but testing would make sense.
If any old, cracked manifolds would be laying around, it would be nice to see how this product and the HardBlok would work. It does
seem like a good way to solve the problem if someone doesn't want to do the Rockwell manifold.
--
George
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146128 is a reply to message #146127] |
Mon, 10 October 2011 23:58 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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I watched Ken H. do this same thing again at a GMC Eastern states rally. Larry Weidner did something similar at a local foundry.
I have heard (but not seen) that Jim Bounds did this frequently at his shop. With the availability of the Gary Rockwell aluminum intake you now have a viable option of using it instead of filling you crossovers.
Someone asked why fill them? The answer is you only need to fill them if the manifold is cracked to the point that it is leaking. Otherwise the blocking plates are all that is needed.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146130 is a reply to message #146127] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 03:38 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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and how Mondello did mine 10 years ago, using their filler
http://goo.gl/0mUyJ
and how Kelvin filled his with aluminum, and the cracks he covered
http://goo.gl/WEvnB
gene
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> It's been done many times. Here's how I did it in '02 using "Mondello
> Metal" (zinc alloy):
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=3115
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:32 PM, David H. Jarvis <jarvis210@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Could you use lead or babbit to fill these things? If you are using block
> > off plates, why do you have to fill it?
> > What about using a levelling cement? There are drag race cars that have
> the
> > entire block filled with cement.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146132 is a reply to message #146126] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 07:01 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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I have been to this mountian, was pushed off the top, climbed back and kicked the guys butt who pushed me!
When I became aware of the issue of cracked intakes we first devised a way to weld the crack, did a story on it called "Intake on the barby" where we heated up an entire intake manifold in a Weber grill to 450 deg. then wleded the crack shut. At the time I thought we were pretty smart. Then I learned about what caused the crack and decided just welding it shut was not enough. Called Mondello for some input. They gave me both options (zinc alloy and block off plates). We went for filling the intake based on their recommendation and did a pile of them just the way everyones pics show. We were fat, dumb and happy till one day one of the motors we had pulled the intake and filled gave up it's ghost and needed rebuilding. Pulling the intake on the 403 motor we found most of the zinc alloy we had poured into the intake was missing! What the *&^%%!!!! I called back Mondellos (not to actually Joe but the other folks) and they now told me using
the zinc was not enough that we also needed to install the block off plates. I was very clear about what they told me was the fix before and now their words changed.
I think if there is a partially clogged muffler or offbalanced exh. system, the added pressures of the engine trying to balance itself causes the zinc alloy to melt away. The exh. crossover acts to balance the motor the way a "crossover pipe" on a Ford exh. system does. The motor needs to balance itself to run smooth so I think a good pair of matched mufflers or a single muffler system with no mufflers up front gives the motor the head balancing it needs. Blocking the crossover must happen on every motor I feel so you now must also consider balancing the motors through the exhaust system is now an issue.
We no longer fill intakes, after actually seeing the zinc allow Mondello sold me melted out I just cannot do that any more, I do use the Mondello block off plates and this system has worked well for us through many motors. We now specify this procedure on all motors we build, I will not supply a motor for use in a GMC withough blockoff plates or using the aluminum intake. I know that even if an intake is not cracked there is nothing to say it will not happen soner or later and when it does, I do not want this problem to effect motors we supply.
It's really not a difficult mod to do, pull up the intake, clean off the carbon build up from the valley, toss out the "turkey tray" gasket and reinstall the intake with the plates on the head side of the Mr. Gasket #404 (for 455 motors) or the #405g (for 403 motors), used Permatex Ultra grey sealant around the water ports-- put it all back together and that's it. Time and the sheer numbers of motors we have out there with absolutely no issues tells me this procedure works.
True there are many ways to skin a cat and we are free here in America to do anything we want. Dick Patterson makes a nice intake gasket/ block off plate product-- use it if you like. The Rockwell aluminum intake has no crossover thus totally eliminating the issue, now all you need to do is make sure your mufflers are not plugged. The single muffler exh. system Jim K. makes is very nice, I have it on my 23' coach I'm building up-- it also sounds very manly! Do it any way you like but I strongly suggest folks being proactive on blocking the exh. crossovers in the intake, I think it's just the right thing to do.
If there is anything else I can help with explaining what we do let me know,
Jim Bounds
------------------------
________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material
David,
Gasoline engine exhaust gas temp range:
700 °F to 1100 °F
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7819560_exhaust-temperature-gas-vs-diesel.html
Melting points:
Babbitt = 479 °F
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/babbitt.htm
Lead = 621.43 °F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead
Zinc = 787.15 °F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc
Aluminum = 1220.58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium
IIRC sells "Mondello Metal" to plug the exhaust crossover in the heads.
I've asked HardBlok Water Jacket Filler if it would work to block the crossover.
http://www.hardblok.com/
But I haven't had a response yet.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: David H. Jarvis
Could you use lead or babbit to fill these things? If you are using block off plates, why do you have to fill it?
What about using a levelling cement? There are drag race cars that have the entire block filled with cement.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146134 is a reply to message #146126] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 07:05 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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Now yall need to keep in mind, the block fillers are put in engines which see less than fifteen seconds of operation under high power, and more like a couple of minutes maximum run time. I wonder bout zinc, with a stainless block off plate at each head. It shouldn't be hard toget a galvinizer to pour a manifold for you. I may have to find out, the parts coach looks superficially (down the secondaries) like it might be cracked.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material
David,
Gasoline engine exhaust gas temp range:
700 °F to 1100 °F
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7819560_exhaust-temperature-gas-vs-diesel.html
Melting points:
Babbitt = 479 °F
http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/babbitt.htm
Lead = 621.43 °F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead
Zinc = 787.15 °F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc
Aluminum = 1220.58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium
IIRC sells "Mondello Metal" to plug the exhaust crossover in the heads.
I've asked HardBlok Water Jacket Filler if it would work to block the crossover.
http://www.hardblok.com/
But I haven't had a response yet.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: David H. Jarvis
Could you use lead or babbit to fill these things? If you are using block off plates, why do you have to fill it?
What about using a levelling cement? There are drag race cars that have the entire block filled with cement.
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146136 is a reply to message #146127] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 07:12 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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Did you use a block off gasket on reassembly??
--johnny
________________________________
From: Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material
It's been done many times. Here's how I did it in '02 using "Mondello
Metal" (zinc alloy):
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=3115
Ken H.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:32 PM, David H. Jarvis <jarvis210@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Could you use lead or babbit to fill these things? If you are using block
> off plates, why do you have to fill it?
> What about using a levelling cement? There are drag race cars that have the
> entire block filled with cement.
>
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146138 is a reply to message #146125] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 07:55 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 10 October 2011 22:39 |
George,
The exhaust crossover is located under the intake plenum.
The intake manifold develops cracks in the bottom of the intake plenum which open into the exhaust crossover allowing exhaust gas to
enter the intake stream.
The intake also cracks at the bottom of the crossover allowing exhaust gases to enter the lifter valley.
If the bottom of the intake plenum and the bottom of the crossover are both cracked engine oil vapors can be sucked into the intake
stream along with exhaust gases.
In theory if the crossover is plugged at the heads with stainless steel block off plates engine exhaust can no longer be sucked into
the intake gas stream, however, engine oil vapors can be sucked into the crossover and then into the intake plenum.
Filling the crossover with a material seals the cracks between the intake plenum and the crossover as well as those between the
crossover and the lifter valley.
If the rate of expansion and the total amount of expansion of the cast iron is greater than that of the ceramic material the cast
iron could pull away from the ceramic material and a leak path for oil vapors be created through cracks in the bottom of the
crossover, around the ceramic material, and through the cracks in the bottom of the intake plenum.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: George Rudawsky
I imagine that they do have a good point in today's liability happy world. Generally, the coefficient of expansion of ceramic
materials is lower than that of metal, so it may work, but testing would make sense.
If any old, cracked manifolds would be laying around, it would be nice to see how this product and the HardBlok would work. It does
seem like a good way to solve the problem if someone doesn't want to do the Rockwell manifold.
--
George
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it would really be great to do some kind of test on a cracked manifold just to see how much leakage a crack produces. i've wanted to do this for many years but don't have a manifold to test. so far it is all guessing and speculation.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146144 is a reply to message #146136] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 08:30 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Johnny,
When I did the first assembly, I used a gasket without crossover passages.
Some time later I had the manifold off for some other reason. The gasket
was burned away in the area of the crossover, but undamaged otherwise. The
zinc was in good condition but by then I'd learned of SS block-off plates so
I reassembled with those also. That engine's now in my son's coach. It's
got about 80,000 miles on it since the crossover was filled and runs very
good.
Ken H.
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> Did you use a block off gasket on reassembly??
>
> --johnny
>
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146146 is a reply to message #146138] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 08:48 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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If there is a crack on the bottom of the intake, we do not use it. If you block the crossover chances are if there is no crack at the bottom of the intake it will not happen-- it's the hot gases heating the intake higher in the middle and the rest of it that causes the cracking. I think if it's cracked through and through that it's probably not worth saving.
Jim Bounds
----------------------
________________________________
From: fred veenschoten <fredntoni@cox.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material
Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 10 October 2011 22:39
> George,
>
> The exhaust crossover is located under the intake plenum.
>
> The intake manifold develops cracks in the bottom of the intake plenum which open into the exhaust crossover allowing exhaust gas to
> enter the intake stream.
>
> The intake also cracks at the bottom of the crossover allowing exhaust gases to enter the lifter valley.
>
> If the bottom of the intake plenum and the bottom of the crossover are both cracked engine oil vapors can be sucked into the intake
> stream along with exhaust gases.
>
> In theory if the crossover is plugged at the heads with stainless steel block off plates engine exhaust can no longer be sucked into
> the intake gas stream, however, engine oil vapors can be sucked into the crossover and then into the intake plenum.
>
> Filling the crossover with a material seals the cracks between the intake plenum and the crossover as well as those between the
> crossover and the lifter valley.
>
> If the rate of expansion and the total amount of expansion of the cast iron is greater than that of the ceramic material the cast
> iron could pull away from the ceramic material and a leak path for oil vapors be created through cracks in the bottom of the
> crossover, around the ceramic material, and through the cracks in the bottom of the intake plenum.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Rudawsky
>
> I imagine that they do have a good point in today's liability happy world. Generally, the coefficient of expansion of ceramic
> materials is lower than that of metal, so it may work, but testing would make sense.
>
> If any old, cracked manifolds would be laying around, it would be nice to see how this product and the HardBlok would work. It does
> seem like a good way to solve the problem if someone doesn't want to do the Rockwell manifold.
> --
> George
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
it would really be great to do some kind of test on a cracked manifold just to see how much leakage a crack produces. i've wanted to do this for many years but don't have a manifold to test. so far it is all guessing and speculation.
--
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146180 is a reply to message #146144] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 16:23 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Thanks. Sounds as if the plates are cheeeep inshoance.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material
Johnny,
When I did the first assembly, I used a gasket without crossover passages.
Some time later I had the manifold off for some other reason. The gasket
was burned away in the area of the crossover, but undamaged otherwise. The
zinc was in good condition but by then I'd learned of SS block-off plates so
I reassembled with those also. That engine's now in my son's coach. It's
got about 80,000 miles on it since the crossover was filled and runs very
good.
Ken H.
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> Did you use a block off gasket on reassembly??
>
> --johnny
>
>
>
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Intake Manifold Crossover Fill Ceramic Material [message #146472 is a reply to message #146469] |
Fri, 14 October 2011 09:08 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| wally wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 08:35 |
Fred, that pic was me pressure checking a manifold. The manifold I'm running now pressure and visually checked OK but I filled it with high temp silicone anyway and use Patterson blocking plates
|
How did you fill with high temp silicone? Fill solid or just smear it on internally?
If you filled what did you use and where did you get it?
It would seem buying enough tubes of the high temp stuff to fill the manifold would be a bit pricey.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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