Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay
| Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145589] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 08:30  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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I was just blowing the cobwebs out of my cranial storage and the talk of electric fuel pumps set a pointer that lead to our '73 Vega Z-29 (not all that different than vanilla).
It had an electric in tank fuel pump. It also had a relay that was connected to the start or ignition circuit and a lube oil pressure switch. This caused the pump to run during start up, but shut it down if it lost lube oil pressure. (The later was a very good plan - if you remember the Vega motor.)
We need to find (or maybe build) that pump control for GMCs with electric fuel pumps. I don't even have any idea where to look for a GM part number. I would not bet that it is even still available, but the maybe out of the rust belt there are some surviving examples.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145591 is a reply to message #145589] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 08:37  |
PettyVTX
Messages: 363
Registered: April 2011
Location: Winder Ga.
Karma: 1
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Ive got a couple of spare fuel pumps for the Vega. i Will get the part # for them. The pump goes in the tank with a sock on the end, it is connected to the pick up tube with a short rubber hose. My Cosworth has the one in the tank and an external pump that is controlled by the ECU as it is fuel injected.The tank pump is controlled by a relay and it does go thru the oil presure switch thus the three terminals on the switch.
Ted
Ex Avion now looking for a 23'
Jeep Wrangler Towd
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| Re: Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145593 is a reply to message #145589] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 08:43 |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
Karma: 3
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Holley makes a pressure switch for this #12-810 and then a cube relay off the starter circuit could turn on fuel pump during starting and the oil pressure switch would take over after it was running. I too had a Vega not a great car but a great teaching tool. Was a good car till I cut the "frame " to make header fit. But what do i know I'm working on getting my son's 64 Corvair not Covette but corvair for a toad.
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
[Updated on: Wed, 05 October 2011 09:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145595 is a reply to message #145593] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 08:46 |
PettyVTX
Messages: 363
Registered: April 2011
Location: Winder Ga.
Karma: 1
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I still have 2 of them.
Ted
| skip2 wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 08:43 |
Holley makes a pressure switch for this #12-810 and then a cube relay off the starter circuit could turn on fuel pump during starting and the oil pressure switch would take over after it was running. I too had a Vega not a great car but a great teaching tool.
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Ex Avion now looking for a 23'
Jeep Wrangler Towd
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| Re: Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145598 is a reply to message #145593] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 08:51 |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
Karma: 3
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Just looked at the wiring for this holley switch it shows how to wire it where you don't even need the cube relay for starting. it has a closed circuit during "no pressure" for starting
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145615 is a reply to message #145589] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 10:49 |
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This one?
www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5913
Got the oil pressure switch from Jim K.
www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/934
Relay info from Emery. NAPA Echlin AR-143.
bdub
-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Matt Colie
I was just blowing the cobwebs out of my cranial storage and the talk of
electric fuel pumps set a pointer that lead to our '73 Vega Z-29 (not all
that different than vanilla).
It had an electric in tank fuel pump. It also had a relay that was
connected to the start or ignition circuit and a lube oil pressure switch.
This caused the pump to run during start up, but shut it down if it lost
lube oil pressure. (The later was a very good plan - if you remember the
Vega motor.)
We need to find (or maybe build) that pump control for GMCs with electric
fuel pumps. I don't even have any idea where to look for a GM part number.
I would not bet that it is even still available, but the maybe out of the
rust belt there are some surviving examples.
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bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145660 is a reply to message #145615] |
Wed, 05 October 2011 21:45 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| Billy Massey wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 10:49 |
This one?
www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5913
bdub
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Billy - looks like you got a bit further with this than I have so far. How did you make the fuel pump electric connection through the pickup plate that will seal for gas and fumes? What did you decide to use for wire insulation to resist attack from the gas.
Glad you were able to make use of the pump and sock info I had.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145735 is a reply to message #145660] |
Thu, 06 October 2011 15:24 |
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Hi Steve
I been working on it for a month now! Just got the tanks mostly put
back in this morning. Messed up and installed the front tank first
making the rear one a bear.
I just used regular standed 18ga wire. I'll let you know if it ever
lets me down. I'm not going to do everything you are on the system.
I stopped short of installing a surge tank.
I figure the Vega E3027 will be around for years to come. Thanks
again for the tips.
bdub
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>
> Billy Massey wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 10:49
>> This one?
>> www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5913
>>
>>
>> bdub
>
>
> Billy - looks like you got a bit further with this than I have so far. How did you make the fuel pump electric connection through the pickup plate that will seal for gas and fumes? What did you decide to use for wire insulation to resist attack from the gas.
>
> Glad you were able to make use of the pump and sock info I had.
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bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145737 is a reply to message #145736] |
Thu, 06 October 2011 16:21 |
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Emery mentioned that it'd probably work just as good as Bill Bramlett
and Bob Musgrove's system except using low pressure pumps for
carburetion. Steve Southworth already has a bill of materials written
up to include items looking forward to whenever fuel injection is
installed.
bdub
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 3:37 PM, <mr.erfisher@gmail.com> wrote:
> Where did this configuration come from? Have not seen this before.
> On Oct 6, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Billy Massey <bdub.bdub@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I been working on it for a month now! Just got the tanks mostly put
>> back in this morning. Messed up and installed the front tank first
>> making the rear one a bear.
>>
>> I just used regular standed 18ga wire. I'll let you know if it ever
>> lets me down. I'm not going to do everything you are on the system.
>> I stopped short of installing a surge tank.
>>
>> I figure the Vega E3027 will be around for years to come. Thanks
>> again for the tips.
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Billy Massey wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 10:49
>>>> This one?
>>>> www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5913
>>>
>>> Billy - looks like you got a bit further with this than I have so far. How did you make the fuel pump electric connection through the pickup plate that will seal for gas and fumes? What did you decide to use for wire insulation to resist attack from the gas.
>>>
>>> Glad you were able to make use of the pump and sock info I had.
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bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145741 is a reply to message #145735] |
Thu, 06 October 2011 17:47 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Has anyone considered incorporating a safety switch that shuts off the fuel pump in the even of an impact? Ford used them during the '80s. Once triggered, it required a manual reset to get the pump to work again.
Regarding a good fuel pump relay for the carburated coaches. Many early FI cars had electronic relays that would run the pump for a few seconds when the ignition was turned on. This was totally independent of the ECU. Early '80s VW & Audi vehicles had them, as well as many other brands. Current FI vehicles have incorporated this feature into the ECU, so the pump relay is nothing special.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2011-10-06, at 4:24 PM, Billy Massey <bdub.bdub@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Steve
>
> I been working on it for a month now! Just got the tanks mostly put
> back in this morning. Messed up and installed the front tank first
> making the rear one a bear.
>
> I just used regular standed 18ga wire. I'll let you know if it ever
> lets me down. I'm not going to do everything you are on the system.
> I stopped short of installing a surge tank.
>
> I figure the Vega E3027 will be around for years to come. Thanks
> again for the tips.
>
> bdub
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Billy Massey wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 10:49
>>> This one?
>>> www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5913
>>>
>>>
>>> bdub
>>
>>
>> Billy - looks like you got a bit further with this than I have so far. How did you make the fuel pump electric connection through the pickup plate that will seal for gas and fumes? What did you decide to use for wire insulation to resist attack from the gas.
>>
>> Glad you were able to make use of the pump and sock info I had.
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145751 is a reply to message #145741] |
Thu, 06 October 2011 19:22 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Ford still uses them, my '05 Ranger has it mounted above the passenger toeboard behind a sheet metal shield. Matter of fact, if you toss your cased shotgun over there and inadvertantly hit it, you can trip it without knwoing you have... particularly if you just bought the truck. Ask me how I know this.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay
Has anyone considered incorporating a safety switch that shuts off the fuel pump in the even of an impact? Ford used them during the '80s. Once triggered, it required a manual reset to get the pump to work again.
Regarding a good fuel pump relay for the carburated coaches. Many early FI cars had electronic relays that would run the pump for a few seconds when the ignition was turned on. This was totally independent of the ECU. Early '80s VW & Audi vehicles had them, as well as many other brands. Current FI vehicles have incorporated this feature into the ECU, so the pump relay is nothing special.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2011-10-06, at 4:24 PM, Billy Massey <bdub.bdub@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Steve
>
> I been working on it for a month now! Just got the tanks mostly put
> back in this morning. Messed up and installed the front tank first
> making the rear one a bear.
>
> I just used regular standed 18ga wire. I'll let you know if it ever
> lets me down. I'm not going to do everything you are on the system.
> I stopped short of installing a surge tank.
>
> I figure the Vega E3027 will be around for years to come. Thanks
> again for the tips.
>
> bdub
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Billy Massey wrote on Wed, 05 October 2011 10:49
>>> This one?
>>> www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5913
>>>
>>>
>>> bdub
>>
>>
>> Billy - looks like you got a bit further with this than I have so far. How did you make the fuel pump electric connection through the pickup plate that will seal for gas and fumes? What did you decide to use for wire insulation to resist attack from the gas.
>>
>> Glad you were able to make use of the pump and sock info I had.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145801 is a reply to message #145589] |
Fri, 07 October 2011 07:38 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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I think I posted on this once. Had a problem with the son's v6 Fearo. Pump ran all the time and drained batt. So, looking at the wiring scematic I noticed a relay attached and inside the oil press. sender. When I turned on the ing. with the engine off it showed 20lbs of pressure!!!!! So,,,, thet engine uses a relay in the sender to power the fuel pump!!!! Don't rmember what size mtr.,,,,,,PL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145814 is a reply to message #145801] |
Fri, 07 October 2011 10:15 |
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Very interesting! Wonder which one?
<www.fierostore.com/Tech/Default.aspx?Id=298>
I wonder if there would there be any problem using this sender on the 455 in
our GMCs?
For 1988 Fiero:
<http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Fuel-Pum
p-and-Engine-Oil-Pressure-Indicator-Switch-ACDelco_3964566-P_1399_R|GRPSESWA
MS_2978023____>
Probably have to have the connector also:
<www.fierostore.com/Product/Detail.aspx?s=65499&id=298>
bdub
-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Paul Leavitt
I think I posted on this once. Had a problem with the son's v6 Fearo. Pump
ran all the time and drained batt. So, looking at the wiring scematic I
noticed a relay attached and inside the oil press. sender. When I turned on
the ing. with the engine off it showed 20lbs of pressure!!!!! So,,,, thet
engine uses a relay in the sender to power the fuel pump!!!! Don't rmember
what size mtr.,,,,,,PL
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| Re: Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145877 is a reply to message #145589] |
Fri, 07 October 2011 21:13 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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I don't remember all the gory details, but the Fiero (at least the '88 one I own) has a redundant system. There is a relay that is both activated by the ECM (engine control computer) and as a fail soft mode, uses oil pressure to also activate the relay if there are ECM problems. (My oil pressure sensor died shortly after I replaced the fuel pump last year, and it still runs fine). When it comes to Fiero's the ECM mode is important, as it gives it a 3 second turn on at key on, otherwise, with relatively high pressure port fuel injection, it would take a while to start.
As someone else mentioned, the easiest way around that on a GMC is to use the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid to activate the pump until pressure comes up. I don't know if the Fiero sending unit has the same gauge calibration as the GMC m/h is looking for or not. The Vega sending unit/connector is probably a cheaper approach though.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Idea - Use a Vega fuel pump relay [message #145959 is a reply to message #145615] |
Sun, 09 October 2011 07:02 |
Hoosier
Messages: 20
Registered: May 2008
Location: Roxboro, NC
Karma: 0
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Billy, seeing your picture reminded me that I had a pump similar to that laying in the garage. It's from my 95 Chrysler (FI); was noisy from brand new and ran 140K miles before failing. It's made by Walbro. Found a site that handles them - http://autoperformanceengineering.com/html/kits.html
Down in the text, they have this info:
If you need to put a piece of high pressure hose in your fuel tank, be sure it's rated for in-tank use. Your typical parts store high pressure EFI hose is only rated for outside the tank use [SAE J30R9]. That hose will turn to mush in no time. A six-inch piece of 5/16 high-pressure, in-tank hose made to Chrysler specs [not-quite-J30R10 spec] is $3.00.
My Charysler set up had a lug to manage the toque the pump will create. You may need double clamps to keep it from twisting.
It's an interesting site; several pumps, kits, etc. Looks like they cater to the do-it-yself group.
RayBechtel
Roxboro, NC
1976 Royale
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