| [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145154] |
Sat, 01 October 2011 10:29  |
Terry Skinner
Messages: 379
Registered: January 2004
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Several years ago I obtained a heater-AC unit from Bruce down in Santa
Barbra. Along with the new dash I am installing this unit.
http://www.fountainvending.co.uk/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/2550_unit.html
My question to you is can I install a trinary switch? It does the same
as the binary switch with the added feature of sending a signal to the
engine cooling fan when the AC is turned on. I want to install an
auxiliary cooling fan in front of the radiator that will come on when
the engine temp starts up as in climbing a hill and/or if the A/C is
turned on. I could do it manually but there are times when she is
driving and I am asleep in the back. One of the pleasures of having a
wife.<G>..............Terry
PS I have operated many miles with the fan mounted in front of the
radiator with the stock setup and manualy operated. No problems, just
ready to step up to the next level.<G>
Terry Skinner
253-686-2624
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145182 is a reply to message #145172] |
Sat, 01 October 2011 19:08  |
Terry Skinner
Messages: 379
Registered: January 2004
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I was looking at the wear and tear on the fan, alternator and like
that. Most of the hot rodders have a radiator fan switch, a trinary
switch (fan part), and a manual over-ride switch, all wired in
parallel and connected to a 30 amp relay to control the fan. If those
guys with their hundred thousand dollar cars trust this system maybe I
should too.............Terry
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Armand Minnie <armand@minniebiz.com> wrote:
>
>
> Terry, I guess the electrical engineers aren't reading but it seems like you could just send power to both from the same switch poles by using a relay from the A/C switch to power the fan when the A/C is turned on.
> --
> Armand Minnie
> Marana, AZ
> '76 Eleganza II
> TZE166V103202
> http://www.minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome
> use the forum - it's easy
> _______________________________________________
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--
Terry Skinner
253-686-2624
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145232 is a reply to message #145154] |
Sun, 02 October 2011 02:37 |
zhagrieb
Messages: 676
Registered: August 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
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Terry,
I think I'm clear on what you want to do but your terms (binary, trinary) aren't familiar to me. So let me take a hack at it.
You have a three position toggle switch with two sets of contacts (binary). In the first position one set of contacts will turn on the blower only for heating. in the second position the compressor is added for AC. The third position is off. You want to find a switch with a third set of contacts that would control the radiator fan. Yes, they are available but I wouldn't suggest that as the way to go.
The blower in your R-2250 wants 22 amps. The compressor clutch wants a bunch more and the radiator fan could take anywhere from 20-40. That's a lot to run through a panel switch and a lot to add to the load already going through your ignition switch.
I'd suggest three 50 amp relays. One each for the blower, compressor and fan. A nice fat #8 wire from the battery + terminal on the firewall, through a nice fat fuse to one of the normally open (NO) contacts on each of the three relays. A #10 from the other NO contact on each relay to each device (more fuses a good idea).
Your panel switch would get 12V from one of the engine accessory fuses and would then feed the coils on the relays (you'd need a couple of diodes to keep the volts from getting mixed up).
This way you'd get full voltage to each device without high current through your switch and the ignition switch.
Does this help?
Glenn
Glenn Giere, Portland OR, K7GAG
'73 "Moby the Motorhome" 26'
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145233 is a reply to message #145232] |
Sun, 02 October 2011 06:36 |
Terry Skinner
Messages: 379
Registered: January 2004
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Nope, thats not it. The binary switch is in the AC you now have in
your original system. It senses hi or low pressure and shuts the AC
down if too hi or too low. A trinary switch is in late model AC and
one part reads the pressure, one part turns the electric fan off and
on thru the computer and a couple of 30 amp relays. I don't want the
computer part. Too many sensers and controlers required and just that
many more things to go wrong. I did find this thread. about half way
down is a diagram that I think will fill my needs...........Terry
http://www.clubhotrod.com/shop-talk/47439-thermos-c-temp-senders.html
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Glenn Giere <glenngiere@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Terry,
>
> I think I'm clear on what you want to do but your terms (binary, trinary) aren't familiar to me. So let me take a hack at it.
>
> You have a three position toggle switch with two sets of contacts (binary). In the first position one set of contacts will turn on the blower only for heating. in the second position the compressor is added for AC. The third position is off. You want to find a switch with a third set of contacts that would control the radiator fan. Yes, they are available but I wouldn't suggest that as the way to go.
>
> The blower in your R-2250 wants 22 amps. The compressor clutch wants a bunch more and the radiator fan could take anywhere from 20-40. That's a lot to run through a panel switch and a lot to add to the load already going through your ignition switch.
>
> I'd suggest three 50 amp relays. One each for the blower, compressor and fan. A nice fat #8 wire from the battery + terminal on the firewall, through a nice fat fuse to one of the normally open (NO) contacts on each of the three relays. A #10 from the other NO contact on each relay to each device (more fuses a good idea).
>
> Your panel switch would get 12V from one of the engine accessory fuses and would then feed the coils on the relays (you'd need a couple of diodes to keep the volts from getting mixed up).
>
> This way you'd get full voltage to each device without high current through your switch and the ignition switch.
>
> Does this help?
>
> Glenn
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Terry Skinner
253-686-2624
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145235 is a reply to message #145154] |
Sun, 02 October 2011 07:11 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Terry Skinner wrote on Sat, 01 October 2011 11:29 |
Several years ago I obtained a heater-AC unit from Bruce down in Santa Barbra. Along with the new dash I am installing this unit.
http://www.fountainvending.co.uk/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/2550_unit.html
My question to you is can I install a trinary switch? It does the same as the binary switch with the added feature of sending a signal to the engine cooling fan when the AC is turned on. I want to install an auxiliary cooling fan in front of the radiator that will come on when the engine temp starts up as in climbing a hill and/or if the A/C is turned on. I could do it manually but there are times when she is driving and I am asleep in the back. One of the pleasures of having a wife.<G>..............Terry
PS I have operated many miles with the fan mounted in front of the radiator with the stock setup and manualy operated. No problems, just ready to step up to the next level.<G>
Terry Skinner
253-686-2624
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
|
Terry,
Part of the problem is that the words "trinary switch" makes no sense, and without a complete description I can only guess what you are trying to accomplish.
It sounds like you are trying to turn the fan on from multiple inputs. This is easy. All it takes is a relay (to handle the power) with primitive OR gate for an input. Feed the signals from manual, temperature or pressure switches to the inputs and you have it. If a signal is only available as true low and you need it true high, a single transistor can invert it.
This is not rocket science, the functional description of a trinary switch has eluded me. It seems to be a part of automotive AC, but nobody wants to say what it really does.
Please describe as best as possible what you really want to do.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145237 is a reply to message #145182] |
Sun, 02 October 2011 07:25 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Terry,
While far from being valued at 100K, on our classics I wired the ele fan to
the brake light switch. The only time I ever needed it was when stopped or
in heavy stop and go traffic. I also had a manual override switch. Stock,
OEM Harrison radiator with a big block engine. Zero problems and no issues
with the fan mounted in front of the radiator.
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Terry Skinner <gmcnut@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was looking at the wear and tear on the fan, alternator and like
> that. Most of the hot rodders have a radiator fan switch, a trinary
> switch (fan part), and a manual over-ride switch, all wired in
> parallel and connected to a 30 amp relay to control the fan. If those
> guys with their hundred thousand dollar cars trust this system maybe I
> should too--
>
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145282 is a reply to message #145235] |
Sun, 02 October 2011 18:14 |
Erv Troyer
Messages: 125
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lagrange, IN
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| mcolie wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 07:11 |
Part of the problem is that the words "trinary switch" makes no sense, and without a complete description I can only guess what you are trying to accomplish.
|
Matt, I am surprised that you haven't seen trinary switches in your marine AC units. These are quite common in the heavy-duty truck industry. Red Dot is the best known of the heating/air conditioning companies serving this market - http://www.rdac.com . Their catalog gives this description for a trinary switch:
"This switch assembly performs three distinct functions. The first function prevents the compressor
from operating if system charge is lost or ambient temperature is too low. The second
stops the compressor if head pressure increases to unsafe levels. It automatically resets when
pressure drops back to normal. The third function is a shutter/fan override switch that keeps
head pressure within normal range by opening shutters or operating engine fan to increase
air flow across condenser when head pressure rises above set value."
"Install Trinary on liquid side of a/c system between condenser and expansion valve. For
use with R-12 and R-134a systems."
Their catalog lists the pressure settings, and all three functions operate at different pressures, so to get all these functions you can't just use a head pressure switch and parallel two circuits through that - you would actually have to use three separate switches to get all these functions.
These are available at Class 8 Truck Parts:
http://www.class8truckparts.com
Erv Troyer Lagrange, IN
74 Sequoia
reo43@aol.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Binary switch [message #145287 is a reply to message #145282] |
Sun, 02 October 2011 18:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Erv Troyer wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 19:14 |
| mcolie wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 07:11 |
Part of the problem is that the words "trinary switch" makes no sense, and without a complete description I can only guess what you are trying to accomplish.
|
Matt, I am surprised that you haven't seen trinary switches in your marine AC units. These are quite common in the heavy-duty truck industry. Red Dot is the best known of the heating/air conditioning companies serving this market - http://www.rdac.com . Their catalog gives this description for a trinary switch:
"This switch assembly performs three distinct functions. The first function prevents the compressor
from operating if system charge is lost or ambient temperature is too low. The second
stops the compressor if head pressure increases to unsafe levels. It automatically resets when pressure drops back to normal. The third function is a shutter/fan override switch that keeps head pressure within normal range by opening shutters or operating engine fan to increase air flow across condenser when head pressure rises above set value."
"Install Trinary on liquid side of a/c system between condenser and expansion valve. For use with R-12 and R-134a systems."
Their catalog lists the pressure settings, and all three functions operate at different pressures, so to get all these functions you can't just use a head pressure switch and parallel two circuits through that - you would actually have to use three separate switches to get all these functions.
These are available at Class 8 Truck Parts:
http://www.class8truckparts.com
|
Erv,
Thanks for both the information and the links.
Now that I know what it is, the idea makes sense. The word still does not, but it is clever marketing marketing. (It sounds impressive.)
Two of the functions (system pressure and head pressure) are commonly protected against in separate functions. But starting a fan is not something boats do. The condenser cooling pump usually just runs with the compressor.
So, there is a nomenclature issue here.
In EEeze what is described would be a three switch package, it is not even a triple function switch (that would be one switch the does three things from one control).
By convention, a Trinary switch would have an input set and three possible output conditions (this seems to have only two output conditions (compressor - off and fan - on)from three input switches). Like a Binary switch has an input and two (0 & 1) output conditions. An octal switch has three input leads and eight output conditions.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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