Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Hydrogen generator
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen generator [message #140204 is a reply to message #140179] |
Sat, 20 August 2011 12:31   |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Chemically it is possible, but not economical. As P. T.Barnum said,"There is a sucker born every minute"
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator [message #165174 is a reply to message #140179] |
Tue, 03 April 2012 10:50 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
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Just a few comments about H2 generation. Yes, it takes more energy, however it is done, to separate hydrogen from oxygen than what you get from burning it. About twice as much. So that's not what it's all about. And it doesn't make the fuel "burn more efficiently." The fuel burns virtually 100% regardless. So what is it? The real effect is that it speeds the flame travel. In fact, the flame speed of H2 is so high that it is pretty much impossible to burn it in an engine as a primary fuel. But as an additive, say in a concentration of about 10%, it can speed flame travel without causing too much harm (combustion noise, mechanical damage). If you want to run very lean of stoichiometric, it can help a lot. But I doubt if any of us are going to go that much trouble - it takes a lot of fussing with a carburetor to make everything work at an air/fuel ratio of perhaps 22:1. But what about when running "normal" air/fuel ratios? Say the
ignition timing is retarded from optimum - optimum being defined as when the peak cylinder pressure occurs at about 16 degrees ATC. Then the H2 can speed up the flame travel enough to bring the peak cylinder pressure to the right point, improving fuel economy. But if the ignition timing is already "about right" the faster flame speed will put the peak cylinder pressure AHEAD of 16 ATC, reducing efficiency. Bottom line? If it does anything to improve fuel economy, you could get the same improvement by putting the spark advance at the correct value. 30% better fuel economy? No way (except for the extreme lean operation discussed above).
If the engine and all systems were designed around it there could be a substantial improvement. Therefore, as part of a complete engine management system, there is a glimmer of benefit in it. But all the OEM's have looked at it numerous times over the last 50 years, and no one has yet implemented such a system. As an aftermarket add-on, I wouldn't touch it.
Gary Casey
Bruce,
?
The HHO generator is not producing to "run" the coach, it is I guess the word is fortifying the fuel to burn more efficiently.? I am repeating what the tech I have been talking to said.? They sure seem serious on the system, I told them that we were trying to do a demonstratable test with Chuck B. installing a system on the left coast and us doing one here.? I told the guy that if we actually could demonstrate it worked and did help mileage that I would help them sell a pile of them ---but--- if it did not and we could not show the improvement they report they really would end up hating me!? The unit resembles a high school science project though when we installed it the system started making bubbles and we could verify the system was doing something right away.
?
If this does work, a 30% increase in fuel economy would be a welcome thing-- if it does not work I will have an object to expend my frustrations on so it won;t be a total loss so lets try.? Hey and if anyone else wants to get in on the test, just call them up, tell them you are throwing in on the real world test and pick up a "double kit"-- for big block V8 operation.? Install is not tough in fact I was sort of let down after getting it all in-- thought there would be more to it.
?
Yea, it might be on the dangerous side but isn't most things we want to do!? Besides, I have a Fire Fight SS100 remote AFFF foam fire suppression system in the engine compartment so if we do have a problem I want to have a video camera to see what happens!? Living on the edge is just a state of mind!!
?
Anyway, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, Someone needs to go at this idea, it's better than just taking the transportation cost we're facing and being aerodynamic to 58 MPH, we just may see a real pickup in economy at those lower speeds.
?
Visit the daily pose while we do these tests, Chuck Botts may be doing a talk on his system at the Casa DeFruita rally, I'll be there to so we will be able to compare notes.? It might just be a fun talk
?
Jim Bounds
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen generator [message #165205 is a reply to message #140179] |
Tue, 03 April 2012 13:35 |
RadioActiveGMC
Messages: 1020
Registered: November 2010
Location: Hot AZ desert
Karma: 0
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If the auto builders reasearch things for 50 years and don't use something. That by no means makes me think its cause the technology wouldn't work. It would take them 4 mins to realize it wouldn't work. Why research something that long!? It auto builders cared we'd not be stuck on dinosaur fuel still. Most all big business makes decisions not based on logic or whats best, they decide on how to keep rich and grow richer.
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Onans smell, "Go solar/wind power!"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen generator [message #165209 is a reply to message #165205] |
Tue, 03 April 2012 14:11 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Mr.RadioActive wrote on Tue, 03 April 2012 12:35 |
If the auto builders reasearch things for 50 years and don't use something. That by no means makes me think its cause the technology wouldn't work. It would take them 4 mins to realize it wouldn't work. Why research something that long!? It auto builders cared we'd not be stuck on dinosaur fuel still. Most all big business makes decisions not based on logic or whats best, they decide on how to keep rich and grow richer.
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Car companies do want to stay in business and most technology advances have to be weighed against financial viability. In my career, I never saw a technology rejected without a good reason. Those reasons include marketability, profitability, image, safety, social responsibility, etc. Many times, there are still technical roadblocks that need to be revisited later. Modern electronics have finally enabled technologies developed decades ago.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen generator [message #165229 is a reply to message #165205] |
Tue, 03 April 2012 19:16 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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In a competitive marketplace, the manufacturer will cover his bets. It costs not a lot to determine if someone's 'new idea' is viable or not. Now, if any auto manufacturer could denmonstrate a 10% or greater EPA number for an equal car to his competitors, he will sell every one he can build.
Remember, for all the hype, cars in a competitive class have very little difference between them. We buy them and defend them based on emotion. I make my living (indirectly) off advertising. The mopre emotional the buy, the more effective advertising can be in selling it. We run a LOT of car ads. We don't run a lot of white goods ads.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Michael <radioactive626@msn.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2012 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen generator
If the auto builders reasearch things for 50 years and don't use something. That by no means makes me think its cause the technology wouldn't work. It would take them 4 mins to realize it wouldn't work. Why research something that long!? It auto builders cared we'd not be stuck on dinosaur fuel still. Most all big business makes decisions not based on logic or whats best, they decide on how to keep rich and grow richer.
--
***"Gettin There"-1973 23' Sequoia-
Michael, Casa Grande, AZ
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hydrogen Generator [message #165236 is a reply to message #165174] |
Tue, 03 April 2012 20:55 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gary,
Thanks for the detailed technical explanation of how HHO works. What you
note makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the Marketeers who flog it
say!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Casey
Just a few comments about H2 generation. Yes, it takes more energy, however
it is done, to separate hydrogen from oxygen than what you get from burning
it. About twice as much. So that's not what it's all about. And it
doesn't make the fuel "burn more efficiently." The fuel burns virtually
100% regardless. So what is it? The real effect is that it speeds the
flame travel. In fact, the flame speed of H2 is so high that it is pretty
much impossible to burn it in an engine as a primary fuel. But as an
additive, say in a concentration of about 10%, it can speed flame travel
without causing too much harm (combustion noise, mechanical damage). If you
want to run very lean of stoichiometric, it can help a lot. But I doubt if
any of us are going to go that much trouble - it takes a lot of fussing with
a carburetor to make everything work at an air/fuel ratio of perhaps 22:1.
But what about when running "normal" air/fuel ratios? Say the
ignition timing is retarded from optimum - optimum being defined as when
the peak cylinder pressure occurs at about 16 degrees ATC. Then the H2 can
speed up the flame travel enough to bring the peak cylinder pressure to the
right point, improving fuel economy. But if the ignition timing is already
"about right" the faster flame speed will put the peak cylinder pressure
AHEAD of 16 ATC, reducing efficiency. Bottom line? If it does anything to
improve fuel economy, you could get the same improvement by putting the
spark advance at the correct value. 30% better fuel economy? No way
(except for the extreme lean operation discussed above).
If the engine and all systems were designed around it there could be a
substantial improvement. Therefore, as part of a complete engine management
system, there is a glimmer of benefit in it. But all the OEM's have looked
at it numerous times over the last 50 years, and no one has yet implemented
such a system. As an aftermarket add-on, I wouldn't touch it.
Gary Casey
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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