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[GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #135983]

Mon, 25 July 2011 14:53

glwgmc

Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004

Karma: 10

Senior Member

Hi all,

It turns out the last batch of axles Manny received were assembled with the wrong outer boot. The boot is too large and will rub on the lower ball joint mounting bolt heads resulting in a torn boot sooner or later. When i installed my axles I was concerned. The boot looked to me like it rubbed. I called Manny and he said it was close but would not rub. Today I discovered the passenger side had already rubbed through at the largest bellow. I sent Manny some photos and he observed that the boot was a different size and shape than the ones on his coach. He pulled axles from this last shipment and found that indeed the wrong boots had been installed. The correct boot is a Doreman 614-003. Besides mine, it looks like about a half dozen kits went out with these wrong boots installed. Manny is chasing these down and sending the correct boots. He also is pulling all his inventory and reinstalling the correct boots. If you received a kit recently check the clearance betwe
en the boot and the ball joint bolt heads. If it looks like it will rub, call Manny to get the correct boot as a replacement. He says the axles can be removed without popping either ball joint so alignment will not be affected. Just the pain of pulling it out and replacing the boot. Glad we found the issue now and not somewhere out on the road!

Jerry

Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
541-592-5360

Founder of the Southern Oregon Guild
www.southernoregonguild.org
Member of the Siskiyou Guild
www.siskiyouguild.org

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78 Royale
Kerby, OR

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #135992 is a reply to message #135983]

Mon, 25 July 2011 15:45

Mr ERFisher

Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005

Karma: 2

Senior Member

I didn't see the pictures??

gene

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Work Jerry <glwork@mac.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It turns out the last batch of axles Manny received were assembled with the
> wrong outer boot. The boot is too large and will rub on the lower ball
> joint mounting bolt heads resulting in a torn boot sooner or later. When i
> installed my axles I was concerned. The boot looked to me like it rubbed.
> I called Manny and he said it was close but would not rub. Today I
> discovered the passenger side had already rubbed through at the largest
> bellow. I sent Manny some photos and he observed that the boot was a
> different size and shape than the ones on his coach. He pulled axles from
> this last shipment and found that indeed the wrong boots had been installed.
> The correct boot is a Doreman 614-003. Besides mine, it looks like about a
> half dozen kits went out with these wrong boots installed. Manny is chasing
> these down and sending the correct boots. He also is pulling all his
> inventory and reinstalling the correct boots. If you received a kit
> recently check the clearance betwe
> en the boot and the ball joint bolt heads. If it looks like it will rub,
> call Manny to get the correct boot as a replacement. He says the axles can
> be removed without popping either ball joint so alignment will not be
> affected. Just the pain of pulling it out and replacing the boot. Glad we
> found the issue now and not somewhere out on the road!
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple
> building in historic Kerby, OR
> Visitors always welcome!
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
> 541-592-5360
>
> Founder of the Southern Oregon Guild
> www.southernoregonguild.org
> Member of the Siskiyou Guild
> www.siskiyouguild.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
�Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #136002 is a reply to message #135992]

Mon, 25 July 2011 16:45

mannystrans

Messages: 209
Registered: June 2006

Karma: 1

Senior Member

This batch of chevy one ton axles has these bigger boots.
I was putting them on the new axle shafts and it affected eight sets.
Two were on the crates ready to drop off before Jerry Work called, I
was able to put the correct boots on those two sets and are ready to
drop off at the terminal.The other six set need the boots replaced,
which I already sent emails and will ship them the boots and hope they
can install.
Does anyone have instructions on replacing cv boots?

--
Manny Trovao
mannystrans@gmail.com
Manny's Trans / Power Drive
San Jose, California
408-937-1583
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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #136003 is a reply to message #135992]

Mon, 25 July 2011 16:46

mannystrans

Messages: 209
Registered: June 2006

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Gens, It doesn't affect yours.

--
Manny Trovao
mannystrans@gmail.com
Manny's Trans / Power Drive
San Jose, California
408-937-1583
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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #136022 is a reply to message #135983]

Mon, 25 July 2011 18:17

KB

Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Bummer! While I was installing the kit, the boots looked like they'd rub
on the bolts, so I thought that's what Jerry was describing. Once I got the
coach back on the ground though, they seem fine. Here's a picture of what
I think are the correct boots with the coach on the ground:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=39874

Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #136029 is a reply to message #136022]

Mon, 25 July 2011 18:45

Gary Worobec

Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005

Karma: -1

Senior Member

In checking with Manny mine are marked on the rubber as INTERPART BT-136.
These numbers are correct. The markings are on the side closest to the
band.

Thanks

Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "KB" <kab7@sonic.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT!

> Bummer! While I was installing the kit, the boots looked like they'd rub
> on the bolts, so I thought that's what Jerry was describing. Once I got
> the
> coach back on the ground though, they seem fine. Here's a picture of
> what
> I think are the correct boots with the coach on the ground:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=39874
>
> Karen
> 1973 23'
> 1975 26'
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front end [message #138546 is a reply to message #135983]

Thu, 11 August 2011 18:42

KB

Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I can add these part numbers to the instructions. I believe Manny said these
were actually for 3/4 ton Suburbans, but I could be mistaken. I like
to keep the reference vehicle info as I've noticed sometimes part numbers
change/disappear over time.

For what it's worth, I used Centric semi-loaded calipers # 14166019 & 14166020
and ceramic pads 30103700.

thanks,
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282375 is a reply to message #135983]

Sat, 18 July 2015 00:52

BobDunahugh

Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Karma: 11

Senior Member

A friend needed alot of parts in the front suspension. So I put the 1 ton unit in for him. Nice well made kit. The geometry is an issue for me. So I made up a balsa wood model of it. That was a game changer for me. A year later I got some greaseable front knuckles from Dave L. for my GMC. Now that unit will last me the rest of my life. It handles to perfection.One Friday before a track event here. We had a steak fry with alot of professional drives. We had two 78 Royales in the drive. One stock. The other had the 1 ton unit. I told them nothing about each GMC. Couldn't pass this opportunity up. I asked 6 drives to take each GMC on a specific drive. Then asked them when they got back. If there was any differences in the handling. All 6 to a man said that A. the stock one handled better than B. the 1 ton unit. 3 picked up that something was up with the adjustment of the A frames. I'm NOT saying the 1 ton unit is bad. It's a cost effective way to replace alot of bad parts. As to the bearings. The originals worked well for 40 some years. Can't be that bad. My GMC is staying as GM designed it. Bob Dunahugh
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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282388 is a reply to message #282375]

Sat, 18 July 2015 10:21

LarryInSanDiego

Messages: 336
Registered: September 2006

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Does it have a taller spindle and would that make for a more aggressive negative camber gain curve? Just curious what you found when you modeled it.

Larry Engelbrecht San Diego, CA '73 26' ex-Glacier TZE063V100319 03/07/73

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282392 is a reply to message #282388]

Sat, 18 July 2015 11:38

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

LarryInSanDiego wrote on Sat, 18 July 2015 10:21

Does it have a taller spindle and would that make for a more aggressive negative camber gain curve? Just curious what you found when you modeled it.

The spacing between the top of the knuckle (where the top ball joint attaches) is 2" farther from the bottom of the knuckle (where the bottom ball joint attaches) on the one-ton than on the GMC knuckle.

Looking at the AutoCAD renderings, almost all of that is accounted for by the distance from the centerline of the axle to the point where the top ball joint attaches. In other words, if you want to try to correct for the difference by moving A-arm attachment points to the frame, you would cut the top ones off and move them up 2 inches and leave the bottom alone. That wouldn't give you OEM geometry exactly, but it would behave more like it.

Or you COULD modify the one ton knuckle and not mess with the OEM A-arms and their mounting points at all.

Like I said, that would give you OEM geometry AND serviceable bearings AND 11"rotors with larger calipers. Older motorhomes would probably still need the A-arms re-inforced the way later models came from the factory.

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282403 is a reply to message #282392]

Sat, 18 July 2015 13:52

LarryInSanDiego

Messages: 336
Registered: September 2006

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I thought I recalled reading that the one ton spindles were taller, which you confirmed. I realize it increases negative camber gain, largely similar to lowering inner UCA pivot points (ala Shelby/Guldstrand mod). Without reference points or software at the ready, I'm just trying to understand how that alone adversely affects handling.

Larry Engelbrecht San Diego, CA '73 26' ex-Glacier TZE063V100319 03/07/73

[Updated on: Sat, 18 July 2015 13:54]

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282408 is a reply to message #282392]

Sat, 18 July 2015 17:48

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

G'day,

Bob Drewes gave a presentation on the modifications he made to the front end of his GMC. Below is what I recall he opened with. I
have not put it in quotes as it's not exactly what he said.

I was too busy at the steering wheel of my GMC so installed offset upper bushings to gain more caster. It got better but I was still
too busy at the steering wheel so I installed a 1-Ton front end. It got better but I was still too busy at the steering wheel so I
modified the upper control arms to try and re-establish the same relationship with the lower control arm as in the OEM setup. It got
better but I was still too busy at the steering wheel so I replaced the upper control arms with a pair out of a ????. (I can't
remember where he got the upper control arms). After that I was not too busy at the steering wheel.

Here's a link to some slides out of that presentation:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6613-bob-drewes-1-ton-installation.html

I believe the knuckles are cast or forged iron and if they are cast iron is it possible to modify them or would you not have to make
new patterns or forgings as don't believe you could weld existing knuckles if they are cast iron.

Both Double Trouble and The Blue Streak have front ends will all the components that Dave Lenzi manufactures which are:

Hubs
Knuckles with grease zerks
Offset upper control arms
Idler arms
Relay lever

Double Trouble handles very well and I'm "not too busy at the steering wheel." The Blue Streak is still under restoration.

Is there anything "wrong" with the 1-Ton? I have no idea as I have NO direct experience with one. We have discussed the differences
between the 1-Ton and the OEM system on a number of occasions and the consensus (in my opinion) is that while there are differences
they are acceptable and the system is an overall improvement. Maybe someday someone that has access to both types will compare both
side by side list the differences and divide them into pluses and minuses. I doubt that will ever happen as people will perceive it
to be critical of Manny and/or Dave.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

-----Original Message-----
From: A.

The spacing between the top of the knuckle (where the top ball joint attaches) is 2" farther from the bottom of the knuckle (where
the bottom ball joint attaches) on the one-ton than on the GMC knuckle.

Looking at the AutoCAD renderings, almost all of that is accounted for by the distance from the centerline of the axle to the point
where the top ball joint attaches. In other words, if you want to try to correct for the difference by moving A-arm attachment
points to the frame, you would cut the top ones off and move them up 2 inches and leave the bottom alone. That wouldn't give you OEM
geometry exactly, but it would behave more like it.

Or you COULD modify the one ton knuckle and not mess with the OEM A-arms and their mounting points at all.

Like I said, that would give you OEM geometry AND serviceable bearings AND 11"rotors with larger calipers. Older motorhomes would
probably still need the A-arms re-inforced the way later models came from the factory.

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282409 is a reply to message #282408]

Sat, 18 July 2015 17:54

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

USAussie wrote on Sat, 18 July 2015 17:48

...I believe the knuckles are cast or forged iron and if they are cast iron is it possible to modify them or would you not have to make new patterns or forgings as don't believe you could weld existing knuckles if they are cast iron. ...

Cast iron can be welded. There are a few places left that repair heads and exhaust manifolds.

I figured they were steel, seems to me that cast iron would be too brittle for the application.

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #282414 is a reply to message #135983]

Sat, 18 July 2015 19:20

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

Here is some spreadsheet results from someone who has used the upper control arm from a "C2500":
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/1-ton-suspension/p54915-one-ton-with-2500-uca.html

Check the results for the stock UCA with one-ton on his previous photo. Not sure how the shorter UCA mounted in the same location as OEM compensates for the extra 2" knuckle height.

I have a one-ton and I love it, and all of the steering components, except the wheel bearings were new from Cinnibar when I bought it to pass the safety check. they had about 5k miles on them when I changed to one-ton. I get some bump steer on wavy roads, but I'm not too busy at the wheel.

Unfortunately I don't know who username "Tequilla" is.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #282418 is a reply to message #282414]

Sat, 18 July 2015 20:11

LarryInSanDiego

Messages: 336
Registered: September 2006

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I can't think why a shorter UCA can help things on a GMC with the taller 1 ton spindle. The negative camber curve will be even more aggressive, which I wouldn't think would be beneficial considering the relatively generous wheel travel. More compensation for static negative camber MAY exceed limits of adjustment, but without data, I don't know whether offset UCA bushings would be enough.

Anyway, I'd be interested to understand objective differences between the two setups, for example, raising the UBJ location results in an X effect due to X center migration, etc. Laymen terms work for me as I am not a suspension engineer, just a former autocrosser who has dabbled in suspension tuning. It'll help me understand the why of why one GMC "handles" better than another.

Larry Engelbrecht San Diego, CA '73 26' ex-Glacier TZE063V100319 03/07/73

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282420 is a reply to message #282409]

Sat, 18 July 2015 20:29

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Mark,

I verified with a learned source that the OEM GMC knuckles are cast iron. I would say that it is safe to assume the 1-Ton knuckles
are also. I agree that cast iron CAN be welded and have no problem with it being done on headers, however, I am of the opinion that
welded knuckles would not be a good idea considering the amount of weight they carry and that if they failed it could be
catastrophic.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: A.

Cast iron can be welded. There are a few places left that repair heads and exhaust manifolds.

I figured they were steel, seems to me that cast iron would be too brittle for the application.

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282421 is a reply to message #282420]

Sat, 18 July 2015 20:48

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

USAussie wrote on Sat, 18 July 2015 20:29

Mark,
I verified with a learned source that the OEM GMC knuckles are cast iron. I would say that it is safe to assume the 1-Ton knuckles
are also. I agree that cast iron CAN be welded and have no problem with it being done on headers, however, I am of the opinion that
welded knuckles would not be a good idea considering the amount of weight they carry and that if they failed it could be
catastrophic.

Regards,
Rob M.

The bottom ball joint connection carries all the weight. Don't need to mess with the bottom one. The top one just holds the knuckle's relation to the "kingpin" angle. Weld joints on steel are generally more brittle than the original steel, but cast iron is brittle to begin with. If I had the dollars to squander, I would put my money where my mouth is and get a couple built. Then I would decide if I want to risk my life by installing them. The OEM knuckle is not that robust. The one ton version has more "meat" to it. The greatest hazard is that the weld might metal fatigue over time and that would turn ugly.

Or I could take the details to one of the foundries in Birmingham and throw some dollars at them to cast a couple from scratch.

Since I can't even afford to pay attention, its all moot.

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 ton front end ALERT! [message #282425 is a reply to message #282418]

Sat, 18 July 2015 22:05

jimk

Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Since we work on these coaches daily, we do find each coach different.
Sometimes it can be the rear boggie pin that is loose, or poor alignment,
different rear height left- right.
I learned from Jim Bounds several years ago how to do what I refer to as
the Tricycle frame height.
Using a jack at the front beam in center, lift till the front wheels almost
off the ground.
Go to the rear and have even height , left and right and lock the air bags.
Lower the front all the way and check the height for even let to right.
You'll need to use a unloader tool to make adjustment at the pork chop.
There is more to this but you get the concept.
Majority of owners are driving with the rear higher than the front.
The height can be critical for good handling.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 6:11 PM, Larry Engelbrecht
wrote:

> I can't think why a shorter UCA can help things on a GMC with the taller 1
> ton spindle. The negative camber curve will be even more aggressive, which
> I wouldn't think would be beneficial considering the relatively generous
> wheel travel. More compensation for static negative camber MAY exceed limits
> of adjustment, but without data, I don't know whether offset UCA bushings
> would be enough.
>
> Anyway, I'd be interested to understand objective differences between the
> two setups, for example, raising the UBJ location results in an X effect due
> to X center migration, etc. Laymen terms work for me as I am not a
> suspension engineer, just a former autocrosser who has dabbled in suspension
> tuning. It'll help me understand the why of why one GMC "handles" better
> than another.
> --
> Larry Engelbrecht
>
> San Diego, CA
>
> '73 26' ex-Glacier
>
> TZE063V100319 03/07/73
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282426 is a reply to message #282421]

Sat, 18 July 2015 22:32

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Mark,

You are correct; I "mis-spoke" when I noted "considering the amount of weight they carry." I will revise that statement as follows:

I am of the opinion that welded knuckles would not be a good idea. While I have no idea how much lateral force the upper ball
joints/mounting points have to absorb when a GMC is driven on rough roads and/or through pot holes I would not be willing to gamble
on welded cast iron because if the weld failed it could be catastrophic.

I agree that if someone could modify a left and right 1-ton knuckle by welding so that they had the same mounting points for the
upper and lower ball joints and tie rod end connecting points as the OEM knuckle "we'd" be in business!

They could be taken to a foundry and used as patterns to cast from.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

-----Original Message-----
From: A.

The bottom ball joint connection carries all the weight. Don't need to mess with the bottom one. The top one just holds the
knuckle's relation to the "kingpin" angle. Weld joints on steel are generally more brittle than the original steel, but cast iron is
brittle to begin with. If I had the dollars to squander, I would put my money where my mouth is and get a couple built. Then I would
decide if I want to risk my life by installing them. The OEM knuckle is not that robust. The one ton version has more "meat" to it.
The greatest hazard is that the weld might metal fatigue over time and that would turn ugly.

Or I could take the details to one of the foundries in Birmingham and throw some dollars at them to cast a couple from scratch.

Since I can't even afford to pay attention, its all moot.

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] 1 Ton Front End [message #282430 is a reply to message #282426]

Sat, 18 July 2015 23:28

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

USAussie wrote on Sat, 18 July 2015 22:32

Mark,
You are correct; I "mis-spoke" when I noted "considering the amount of weight they carry." I will revise that statement as follows:

I am of the opinion that welded knuckles would not be a good idea. While I have no idea how much lateral force the upper ball
joints/mounting points have to absorb when a GMC is driven on rough roads and/or through pot holes I would not be willing to gamble
on welded cast iron because if the weld failed it could be catastrophic.

I agree that if someone could modify a left and right 1-ton knuckle by welding so that they had the same mounting points for the
upper and lower ball joints and tie rod end connecting points as the OEM knuckle "we'd" be in business!

They could be taken to a foundry and used as patterns to cast from.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

We are on the same sheet of music. I think if I had the dollars to get a couple cast at a foundry, I could come up with some AutoCAD drawings and print them out on a 3D printer. The foundry could use the 3D models to create the forms.

Basically just use the dimensions/measurements of the OEM ball joint and tie rod connections referenced to the OEM hub hole and project/replace those areas on the one-ton knuckle. Print it out in plastic and, as you say, "Bob's your uncle".

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