Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Coach wont take in Duracool
| Re: [GMCnet] Coach wont take in Duracool [message #135178 is a reply to message #135177] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 11:59   |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Oh of course...I always have recovered all refrigerants no matter what type because the EPA tells me to.
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants [message #135189 is a reply to message #135177] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 12:40 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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A. , please note in my email that I deliberately said an "individual". The Act applies only to licensed technicians -- not individuals doing work on their own vehicles. The paragraph that you quote specifically says "technician". You should look up their definition of a "technician". The EPA has a Technician Certification as outlined in their Section 608 regulations.
I would also suggest that you obtain a copy of The Clean Air Act as amended Feb. 24, 2004, and read all 495 pages of it rather than referencing an EPA blurb that doesn't contain many facts.
The Clean Air Act pertains to a list of air pollutants and specifically says, in Section 112, "The Congress establishes for purposes of this section a list of hazardous air pollutants as follows:"
Then it lists a very extensive 3 page listing of chemicals that it considers air pollutants.
PLEASE NOTE that propane and isobutane are not on the list as they are not considered hazardous air pollutants. If they were then the government would have to ban the use of propane from hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of homes and vehicles that use it for fuel.
In fact Propane is an approved clean fuel listed in the 1990 Clean Air Act and the Energy Policy Act of 1992 and 2005 and is listed as a non-pollutant.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
On Jul 19, 2011, at 10:53 AM, A. wrote:
>
>
> emerystora wrote on Tue, 19 July 2011 10:40
>> With Duracool HC1wa (propane and isobutane blend) there are no regulations about an individual venting it to the air as they are not ozone producing substances.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Santa Fe, NM
> It might be outdated, but according to http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html
>
> "Since November 15, 1995, the Clean Air Act has prohibited the venting of any refrigerant during the service, maintenance, repair, or disposal of air conditioning and refrigeration systems. When working on a system containing a hydrocarbon refrigerant such as HC-12aŽ or DURACOOL 12aŽ, the technician must recover the refrigerant into a suitable container and safely dispose of it."
>
> I have toyed with the idea of acquring a bunsen burner or something and enough surgical tubing to place it a long way from the engine compartment to burn the HC refrigerant instead of just venting it.
> --
> '73 23' CanyonLands
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants [message #135198 is a reply to message #135189] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 13:38 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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| emerystora wrote on Tue, 19 July 2011 12:40 |
A. , please note in my email that I deliberately said an "individual". The Act applies only to licensed technicians -- not individuals doing work on their own vehicles. The paragraph that you quote specifically says "technician". You should look up their definition of a "technician". The EPA has a Technician Certification as outlined in their Section 608 regulations.
I would also suggest that you obtain a copy of The Clean Air Act as amended Feb. 24, 2004, and read all 495 pages of it rather than referencing an EPA blurb that doesn't contain many facts.
The Clean Air Act pertains to a list of air pollutants and specifically says, in Section 112, "The Congress establishes for purposes of this section a list of hazardous air pollutants as follows:"
Then it lists a very extensive 3 page listing of chemicals that it considers air pollutants.
PLEASE NOTE that propane and isobutane are not on the list as they are not considered hazardous air pollutants. If they were then the government would have to ban the use of propane from hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of homes and vehicles that use it for fuel.
In fact Propane is an approved clean fuel listed in the 1990 Clean Air Act and the Energy Policy Act of 1992 and 2005 and is listed as a non-pollutant.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
|
My apologies Emery. I did not intend to hit a nerve.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. So I (and millions like me) rely on digests of laws like these, not the letter. And if you are working on your vehicle (home wiring, yard fence, experimental airplane, whatever), I would say you are the "technician" in that instance. The law may or may not agree, YMMV, etc.
I am not going to narc on someone that vents his Duracool or even R134 on his own automobile.
I do not know which has more/a worse effect on the environment when released into the atmosphere, a given amount of propane/butane mix, or the CO2 produced from burning it.
In my post I was suggesting that it would be easy to stay on the "non-violation" side of the law (whether "individual" or "technician") - by (safely) burning the Duracool instead of venting it.
Again, I did not intend to get in your face with that suggestion.
How can one post on this forum without ruffling someone's feathers? Is it even possible?
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach wont take in Duracool [message #135202 is a reply to message #135177] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 13:44 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Mark, perhaps they want no competition from all the "Global Warming" caused
from all the hot air released by the EPA and other regulatory agencies, who
we all know and believe are here for our own good, and perhaps to make our
30+ year old vehicles perform better. <Grin>
Jim Hupy ( I know Patrick, this is not the time or the place)
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 9:53 AM, A. <markbb1@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>
> emerystora wrote on Tue, 19 July 2011 10:40
> > With Duracool HC1wa (propane and isobutane blend) there are no
> regulations about an individual venting it to the air as they are not ozone
> producing substances.
> >
> > Emery Stora
> > 77 Kingsley
> > Santa Fe, NM
> It might be outdated, but according to
> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html
>
> "Since November 15, 1995, the Clean Air Act has prohibited the venting of
> any refrigerant during the service, maintenance, repair, or disposal of air
> conditioning and refrigeration systems. When working on a system containing
> a hydrocarbon refrigerant such as HC-12aŽ or DURACOOL 12aŽ, the technician
> must recover the refrigerant into a suitable container and safely dispose of
> it."
>
> I have toyed with the idea of acquring a bunsen burner or something and
> enough surgical tubing to place it a long way from the engine compartment to
> burn the HC refrigerant instead of just venting it.
> --
> '73 23' CanyonLands
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants [message #135203 is a reply to message #135198] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 13:46 |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
Karma: -41
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Senior Member |
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Regulations aside, some just don't believe in man caused global climate change which opens a whole new can of worms.
The quantities we work with are insignificant. We all should do what's consistent with the law and our personal set of beliefs.
Dolph Santorine
adolph@Santorine.org
Excuse me for not being my usual wordy and sporadically verbose self. This message is sent from my iPhone.
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
On Jul 19, 2011, at 2:38 PM, A. <markbb1@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>
> emerystora wrote on Tue, 19 July 2011 12:40
>> A. , please note in my email that I deliberately said an "individual". The Act applies only to licensed technicians -- not individuals doing work on their own vehicles. The paragraph that you quote specifically says "technician". You should look up their definition of a "technician". The EPA has a Technician Certification as outlined in their Section 608 regulations.
>>
>> I would also suggest that you obtain a copy of The Clean Air Act as amended Feb. 24, 2004, and read all 495 pages of it rather than referencing an EPA blurb that doesn't contain many facts.
>> The Clean Air Act pertains to a list of air pollutants and specifically says, in Section 112, "The Congress establishes for purposes of this section a list of hazardous air pollutants as follows:"
>>
>> Then it lists a very extensive 3 page listing of chemicals that it considers air pollutants.
>>
>> PLEASE NOTE that propane and isobutane are not on the list as they are not considered hazardous air pollutants. If they were then the government would have to ban the use of propane from hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of homes and vehicles that use it for fuel.
>>
>> In fact Propane is an approved clean fuel listed in the 1990 Clean Air Act and the Energy Policy Act of 1992 and 2005 and is listed as a non-pollutant.
>>
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Santa Fe, NM
> My apologies Emery. I did not intend to hit a nerve.
> I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. So I (and millions like me) rely on digests of laws like these, not the letter. And if you are working on your vehicle (home wiring, yard fence, experimental airplane, whatever), I would say you are the "technician" in that instance. The law may or may not agree, YMMV, etc.
> I am not going to narc on someone that vents his Duracool or even R134 on his own automobile.
> I do not know which has more/a worse effect on the environment when released into the atmosphere, a given amount of propane/butane mix, or the CO2 produced from burning it.
> In my post I was suggesting that it would be easy to stay on the "non-violation" side of the law (whether "individual" or "technician") - by (safely) burning the Duracool instead of venting it.
> Again, I did not intend to get in your face with that suggestion.
> How can one post on this forum without ruffling someone's feathers? Is it even possible?
> --
> '73 23' CanyonLands
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants [message #135214 is a reply to message #135198] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 14:55 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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On Jul 19, 2011, at 12:38 PM, A. wrote:
>>
> My apologies Emery. I did not intend to hit a nerve.
No problem. I was just trying to set the record straight.
I am not always tactful in my replies.
> I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. So I (and millions like me) rely on digests of laws like these, not the letter. And if you are working on your vehicle (home wiring, yard fence, experimental airplane, whatever), I would say you are the "technician" in that instance. The law may or may not agree, YMMV, etc.
When working with the government with regulations you have to go with the letter of the law -- and in this case a private individual not working for hire is not a "technician", let alone a Certified Technician.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants [message #135235 is a reply to message #135198] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 16:48 |
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hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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What?
Yes I open the A/C and let it ALL drain out.
Don't tell the A/C Cops.
Please.
Do what ever you like "A".
After running all over looking for some place to dump my oil and oil
filters.
Here is what I ran in to.
Lets see Oh you have water in your oil!
Yes it rained yesterday.
As for the oil filter we can't take that.
Now I have my own way of getting rid of the oil and filter.
Its not personal "A".
Its a raw nerve with some of us.
Just sick and tired of the Government up our back side.
Thank You
Howard
Alpine Ca.
74 Canyon Lands
Not quite stock
----- Original Message -----
From: "A." <markbb1@netzero.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants
>
>
> emerystora wrote on Tue, 19 July 2011 12:40
>> A. , please note in my email that I deliberately said an "individual".
>> The Act applies only to licensed technicians -- not individuals doing
>> work on their own vehicles. The paragraph that you quote specifically
>> says "technician". You should look up their definition of a
>> "technician". The EPA has a Technician Certification as outlined in
>> their Section 608 regulations.
>>
>> I would also suggest that you obtain a copy of The Clean Air Act as
>> amended Feb. 24, 2004, and read all 495 pages of it rather than
>> referencing an EPA blurb that doesn't contain many facts.
>> The Clean Air Act pertains to a list of air pollutants and specifically
>> says, in Section 112, "The Congress establishes for purposes of this
>> section a list of hazardous air pollutants as follows:"
>>
>> Then it lists a very extensive 3 page listing of chemicals that it
>> considers air pollutants.
>>
>> PLEASE NOTE that propane and isobutane are not on the list as they are
>> not considered hazardous air pollutants. If they were then the
>> government would have to ban the use of propane from hundreds of
>> thousands (perhaps millions) of homes and vehicles that use it for fuel.
>>
>> In fact Propane is an approved clean fuel listed in the 1990 Clean Air
>> Act and the Energy Policy Act of 1992 and 2005 and is listed as a
>> non-pollutant.
>>
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Santa Fe, NM
> My apologies Emery. I did not intend to hit a nerve.
> I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. So I (and millions like me)
> rely on digests of laws like these, not the letter. And if you are
> working on your vehicle (home wiring, yard fence, experimental airplane,
> whatever), I would say you are the "technician" in that instance. The law
> may or may not agree, YMMV, etc.
> I am not going to narc on someone that vents his Duracool or even R134 on
> his own automobile.
> I do not know which has more/a worse effect on the environment when
> released into the atmosphere, a given amount of propane/butane mix, or the
> CO2 produced from burning it.
> In my post I was suggesting that it would be easy to stay on the
> "non-violation" side of the law (whether "individual" or "technician") -
> by (safely) burning the Duracool instead of venting it.
> Again, I did not intend to get in your face with that suggestion.
> How can one post on this forum without ruffling someone's feathers? Is it
> even possible?
> --
> '73 23' CanyonLands
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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All is well with my Lord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach wont take in Duracool [message #135267 is a reply to message #135260] |
Tue, 19 July 2011 21:15 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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On Jul 19, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
>
>
> Now that I have my AC cooling reasonably well, I notice the compressor is not cycling on and off like before, it just seems to run continuously. Should it cycle? or run all the time?
>
> My coach is a 1977, built in Oct 76., but seems to have the type 3 AC (I have a recirc. door that opens on MAX AC)
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
Yes, that vintage does indeed have the type 3. My 77 also has it.
The reason that the a/c cycles is that the thermostat sensor on the outside face of the evaporator sense when the coils get around 32 degrees and open the clutch to let it warm up a bit.
If yours is not cycling then it probably isn't getting as cold as it could.
I believe you said that your low side psi was about 25 psi. You could bleed off just a little of the Duracool and let the pressure get a bit lower and you will probably find that the outlet air is even colder and that it will cycle on and off once in a while.
If you want to have hour air conditioner function better I would suggest that you cover the outside opening in the heater box with a formed piece of aluminum and use duct tape on the edges.
This will then convert it to 100% recirculated air. Then there is a flapper that is located ln the inlet just above the floor to the left of the glovebox. This flapper opens when you put the A/C in the MAX setting -- however it still allows some outside air in through the front of the box. After you close off the opening at the front top of the box then make a small block of wood and reach in and open the flapper and block it open with the piece of wood. This will give 100% recirculation no matter what your a/c is set at -- even the heater will be 100% recirculation.
By recirculating the air you will get the inside of the GMC much colder.
This only works on the Type 3 airconditioners found in late 77 and 1978 models.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach wont take in Duracool [message #135286 is a reply to message #135209] |
Wed, 20 July 2011 04:15 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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On the way to the airport today I passed by the local propane terminal and there was this HUGE flame coming out of it. It turned out that due to the extreme heat in our area the propane was boiling off and needed to be vented. Instead of just dumping it they were burning off the excess pressure. They shut down filling any trucks during the burn off which went on all day. It was still going on at 9:30 this evening when I went back by on the way home. We could have filled up quite a few GMCs with what they burned off there today.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants [message #135417 is a reply to message #135189] |
Thu, 21 July 2011 08:16 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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"How can one post on this forum without ruffling someone's feathers? Is it
even possible?"
Precisely why I watch every word I say out here, I've been blasted way too many
times. Some things are just best kept to yourself.
Ray
Ray & Lisa Erspamer
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 6:29:37 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Venting of Refrigerants
Again, I did not intend to get in your face with that suggestion.
How can one post on this forum without ruffling someone's feathers? Is it
even possible?
I don't think a clarification equates to ruffling feathers. Emory does his
homework and when he posts, they are very precise. With his background in
Chemistry, he is the go to guy for subjects dealing with chemicals. You
can't speed read his posts.
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--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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