Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator
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| Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator [message #128770 is a reply to message #128766] |
Sun, 05 June 2011 15:26   |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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May be I spilled the beans.
I'm not 100%, but Kim Weeks was fairly certain that that would be a
great place for our Spring Convention.
People in the Western States did not want to accomodate us so it will
need to be.
Kim and Kieth has some great plans for the Fall convention in Goshion, IN.
For those that are still working and ornot have their coaches
drivable, they can stay at a motel close by and attend.
This is where you'll see lot of item and meet and speak with people
you normally not speak with. Dick Patterson,Dave Lenzi,Alex Sirum,Jim
Bounds,Ken Frye,Tom Hampton,Ken Henderson,Roger Black,Gene Dotson,and
many more.
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Shawnee, Ok. Wow, that is great. Should pull all of those Tx. and Ok. folks. Less than 500 miles for us too. Glad they chose it. That is central East-West too.
> Dan
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
> Soft White LED Lighting
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator [message #128772 is a reply to message #128770] |
Sun, 05 June 2011 15:38 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Randy and Margie van Winkle stayed at the Spring
2012 convention site earlier this year on their
way home from Quartzsite or some other western spot.
Judy and I met them at a Cracker Barrel near there
for breakfast on their way out and accompanied them
on a GPS search. Item was not there and I found out
a couple of days later that the guy who had hidden
it was a ham friend/club member here in OKC.
Apparently, Cracker Barrel staff found it in the
shrubs and threw it away.
Randy and Margie should be able to give you the
"skinny" on the convention site. They seemed to be
pretty pleased with it as an overnight spot.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~~ ~ ~ (TZE166V101966) ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 13:26:00 -0700
> From: jimkanomata@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator
>
> May be I spilled the beans.
> I'm not 100%, but Kim Weeks was fairly certain that that would be a
> great place for our Spring Convention.
> People in the Western States did not want to accomodate us so it will
> need to be.
>
> Kim and Kieth has some great plans for the Fall convention in Goshion, IN.
>
> For those that are still working and ornot have their coaches
> drivable, they can stay at a motel close by and attend.
>
> This is where you'll see lot of item and meet and speak with people
> you normally not speak with. Dick Patterson,Dave Lenzi,Alex Sirum,Jim
> Bounds,Ken Frye,Tom Hampton,Ken Henderson,Roger Black,Gene Dotson,and
> many more.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Shawnee, Ok. Wow, that is great. Should pull all of those Tx. and Ok.
> > folks. Less than 500 miles for us too. Glad they chose it. That is
> > central East-West too.
> > Dan
> > --
> > Dan & Teri Gregg
> > Soft White LED Lighting
> >
> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator [message #128813 is a reply to message #128769] |
Sun, 05 June 2011 20:43 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| ahamilto wrote on Sun, 05 June 2011 16:18 |
I don't know if it actually works. One comment in the article: "It is important to understand that when making this modification, a larger than normal radiator is needed, as this modification will add coolant flow restriction."
So right there you have a bigger radiator to provide more cooling. Second, the modification forces coolant to flow through the radiator sections faster. Common sense says coolant will transfer more heat when flowing SLOWER.
Only an unbiased experiment with thermometers in strategic places and controlled conditions could prove it does or does not work.
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Monte,
This modification theoretically will not work. What you are doing is effectively making the radiator 1/3 as tall and three times as long. As mentioned the flow will be restricted due to flow resistance in the three times as long tubes. We also do not have room for a larger radiator either.
It will also be less effective because as the coolant goes through the radiator the first pass will have the same efficiency as the original, but the second pass will be less effective due to the lower temperature differential between the coolant and air. The same reason will make the third pass even less efficient so between the extra friction involved reducing the flow and the lesser temperature differential you will have a one lousy radiator.
Basically making the radiator larger is to make up for the reduced cooling due to the three passes
QED
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator [message #128838 is a reply to message #128836] |
Sun, 05 June 2011 23:38 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| emerystora wrote on Sun, 05 June 2011 22:55 |
In this case COMMON SENSE is entirely wrong. It is not true that
slower flowing coolant will transfer more heat.
Heat is transferred at the molecular lever. The more molecules flowing
past a hot surface, the more heat is transferred. If you speed up
the flow rate more heat is transferred.
There are conditions in heat transfer when the flow rate could be so
high that it could create laminar flow at the surface and transfer
less heat but that would not occur in an automotive engine. An auto
water pump cannot pump that fast no matter what rpm you are driving.
Emery Stora
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So is it your opinion that the radiator will cool better divided in 1/3rds?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator [message #128964 is a reply to message #128746] |
Mon, 06 June 2011 19:42 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I've attached below the replies from Mark and Gene. I agree with both that
changing to a 3-pass radiator within the same envelope is at least probably not
the way to go. But I have some differences of opinion. As Mark said,
increasing the velocity of the coolant flow as would be done by the change does
increase the heat transfer to the tubes. The problem is that it almost
certainly will also reduce the water flow rate. That's because the pressure
drop through the radiator will be probably more than twice that of a single-pass
radiator and the water pump will not be able to pump the same volume against the
higher pressure drop. So the higher velocity will help heat transfer, but the
lower flow rate at least partially negates the benefit, as stated by Gene. But
because the coolant will be cooler by the time it gets to the third pass doesn't
automatically make the overall radiator less efficient. After all, when the
coolant flows through a single-pass radiator it is cooler by the time it gets to
the other side, making for less heat transfer in that area.
Radiator design is a relatively complex endeavor and I would be reluctant to
make any big changes. Certainly increasing the frontal area and increasing the
number of rows will help, but going to a 2 or 3-pass design? I don't know, but
I remain skeptical.
Gary Casey
Since my experinace is mostly dirt late model stock car racing, I will speak to
that. A normal radiator refered to a single pass radiator, flows so slowly that
there is not enough turbulance to mix the hot water in the center of each
cooling tube with the cool water running against the inside surface. with a
double or triple pass raditor, the water is moving faster with more turbulance
so more of the water is in contact with the inside surface of the tubes. On a
gasoline powered engine it is almost a given that it will have to have at least
a double pass raditor to keep from overheating. Of course an alcohol engine can
use a single pass radiator but that is a whole different animal...
Mark
This modification theoretically will not work. What you are doing is
effectively making the radiator 1/3 as tall and three times as long. As
mentioned the flow will be restricted due to flow resistance in the three times
as long tubes. We also do not have room for a larger radiator either.
It will also be less effective because as the coolant goes through the radiator
the first pass will have the same efficiency as the original, but the second
pass will be less effective due to the lower temperature differential between
the coolant and air. The same reason will make the third pass even less
efficient so between the extra friction involved reducing the flow and the
lesser temperature differential you will have a one lousy radiator.
Basically making the radiator larger is to make up for the reduced cooling due
to the three passes
QED
--
Gene Dotson
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| Re: [GMCnet] Get more from your radiator [message #129019 is a reply to message #128879] |
Mon, 06 June 2011 22:49 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| emerystora wrote on Mon, 06 June 2011 08:47 |
Ken
I have no idea what you are talking about. What does my statement have to do with "dividing the radiator into 1/3rds???"
Emery Stora
Emery
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That was the subject of this thread. Someone recommended dividing the radiator into thirds and making a 3 pass radiator out of it. I thought you were endorsing this concept with your coolant flow description. I just wanted your opinion on whether that was a good idea or not.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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