Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Airbag loading question
| Airbag loading question [message #127721] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 07:17  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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I have a question for the engineer guys on here.
The standard rear suspension has the airbag positioned between the two bogie arms so there is equal loading on both tires.
For simple calculations, lets say the weight distribution is 4000lbs on the front wheels and 8,000 on the back. So thats 4,000 on each bogie, 2,000lbs per tire. I know the bogie arms are not equal, but for simple calculations, lets say they are.
What weight does the airbag actually see?
At first thought one would say 4,000 lbs (2,000 from each tire). But looking at it further, would it only be 2,000lbs??
Lets say the airbag was fixed at one end, then it is easy to see that the airbag would have 2,000lbs to carry, but isn't there also 2,000lbs against the fixed side? So what difference is there if its fixed to the frame, or fixed against the opposite bogie.
So I'm thinking the airbag needs to only carry 1/2 the weight the bogie actually carries. The 2,000lbs from the front bogie is transfered through the bogie arm to the airbag to the other bogie arm and against the back tire.
What say yea?
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: Airbag loading question [message #127729 is a reply to message #127721] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 08:48  |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 0
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| RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 07:17 |
At first thought one would say 4,000 lbs (2,000 from each tire). But looking at it further, would it only be 2,000lbs??
|
Unless my physics fails me..
Assuming 12000# distributed equally among the six tires, that's 2000# of coach pushing down on each wheel.
In the front, the 2000# per wheel is absorbed into the tire squish, the shocks, and the suspension.
In the rear, the 2000# is absorbed into the tire, the shocks, and the airbag.
So with the caveat that some of the 2000# per tire gets compensated for elsewhere, the bulk of it is transferred through the arms, pivoted on the pin, and into the bag cones, from both sides, roughly 180deg opposed -- so 2000# per side and 4000# total.
If there were two bags on each side, with a solid block in the middle fixed to the chassis, each of the bags would see 2000# from a single direction, and the block in the middle would get the total 4000# (minus bag squish).
The bags used in 4-bag systems are rated less than 2000# at 90psig. I assume that's because the other components (tire, shocks) balance out to make it safe, even when bouncing down the road.
(I think I've just provided the argument you're questioning, so maybe I haven't added anything to the conversation -- but if the above is incorrect, then I'm curious too.) 
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Airbag loading question [message #127730 is a reply to message #127721] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 08:55 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Hi Bruce,
Sometime back I asked if the right rear arm was the same as the left front (we're talking completely about the bogies here) - and the answer came back as yes, so I believe there's only 2 "parts" used for each bogie set and they're apparentely equal.
Best as I can work out (doing this on the fly), if the mounting point of the airbag is the same distance from the center (those pesky bogie pins) as the wheel center is, each arm should be applying your 2000 pounds. That's 2000 each - forcing against the bag from each end so 4000 total 'in the bag'.
If the distances were as mentioned, if you took out the airbag and stuffed in a scale of some sort (hungry man's bathroom scale?)  and dropped the wheels to the ground, it should read 4000. If you put a jack directly under the center of one tire and lifted that single tire/wheel/bogie arm, letting its mate stay on the ground, the scale should still read pretty darn close to 4000 - there might be some changes as there's angles to consider versus the two pivot points (the two bogie pins), but I don't think they would amount to great values.
I think that's it...then again, it's early.  Oh, if the airbag mounting point is of a different length than the axle center to bogie pin distance, there's math required for the leverage (or lack of) the axle has over the airbag mounting point.
It's still raining or I'd go measure but I have a feeling the leverage point of the bag is less than the axle distance, so that means 2K at the axle might mean (guessing) 2200 at the bag, then x 2 = 4400. If it's more, it might mean (guessing) 1800 at the bag ( x 2 = 3600#).
Gord
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| Re: Airbag loading question [message #127731 is a reply to message #127721] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 09:15 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 08:17 |
I have a question for the engineer guys on here.
The standard rear suspension has the airbag positioned between the two bogie arms so there is equal loading on both tires.
For simple calculations, lets say the weight distribution is 4000lbs on the front wheels and 8,000 on the back. So thats 4,000 on each bogie, 2,000lbs per tire. I know the bogie arms are not equal, but for simple calculations, lets say they are.
What weight does the airbag actually see?
At first thought one would say 4,000 lbs (2,000 from each tire). But looking at it further, would it only be 2,000lbs??
Lets say the airbag was fixed at one end, then it is easy to see that the airbag would have 2,000lbs to carry, but isn't there also 2,000lbs against the fixed side? So what difference is there if its fixed to the frame, or fixed against the opposite bogie.
So I'm thinking the airbag needs to only carry 1/2 the weight the bogie actually carries. The 2,000lbs from the front bogie is transfered through the bogie arm to the airbag to the other bogie arm and against the back tire.
What say yea?
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You are completely correct.
When Frank Sargent's new (like in brand new - Fall of 1972) GMC showed up in the engineering lab for some reason (not my program). This was the subject of a discussion I was involved in with two of the brightest engineers I have known - ever. With blackboards and free-body diagrams, one man (Orval Feather - real name) explained the system to the rest of us. He had done a similar design for a USAAC (not yet an Airforce) for a bomb hauler. It actually had a air over hydraulic system that both lifted the load and was suspension for the wagon for the vary largest bombs. It was very similar to our bogie situation.
Lloyd Crabtree (the bright bulb in the room) had a hard time but finally was able to grasp the situation and help Orval get it across to the rest of us.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127732 is a reply to message #127729] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 09:15 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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You guys are only considering static loading. The Dynamic loading on those
airbags and bogie and frame components are much higher than that. Remember
F X D X V(fps)=L ? force times distance of travel x velocity in feet per
second equals load? Sumthin else to strain our brains. To each action, there
is an equal and opposite reaction. All of a sudden, your simple problem
ain't so simple anymore. Now does the light bulb come on as to why some of
the center supported 4 bag systems twisted the heck out of the center
support? Jus sayin.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Andrew <reynhout@quesera.com> wrote:
>
>
> RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 07:17
> > At first thought one would say 4,000 lbs (2,000 from each tire). But
> looking at it further, would it only be 2,000lbs??
>
>
> Unless my physics fails me..
>
> Assuming 12000# distributed equally among the six tires, that's 2000# of
> coach pushing down on each wheel.
>
> In the front, the 2000# per wheel is absorbed into the tire squish, the
> shocks, and the suspension.
>
> In the rear, the 2000# is absorbed into the tire, the shocks, and the
> airbag.
>
> So with the caveat that some of the 2000# per tire gets compensated for
> elsewhere, the bulk of it is transferred through the arms, pivoted on the
> pin, and into the bag cones, from both sides, roughly 180deg opposed -- so
> 2000# per side and 4000# total.
>
> If there were two bags on each side, with a solid block in the middle fixed
> to the chassis, each of the bags would see 2000# from a single direction,
> and the block in the middle would get the total 4000# (minus bag squish).
>
> The bags used in 4-bag systems are rated less than 2000# at 90psig. I
> assume that's because the other components (tire, shocks) balance out to
> make it safe, even when bouncing down the road.
>
> (I think I've just provided the argument you're questioning, so maybe I
> haven't added anything to the conversation -- but if the above is incorrect,
> then I'm curious too.) :)
>
> --
> 1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
> Savannah, GA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: Airbag loading question [message #127742 is a reply to message #127733] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 10:10 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| gordh1 wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:31 |
Hi Matt,
I can gather the transfer one wheel to another - just don't see how the bag could not be seeing the sum.
I was looking at this picture:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=34665
...and eyeballing it, the leverage of the bag connection point is oh, 75% of that of the axle? So 2K at the axle should need some 2600 lbs at the bag to hold one wheel up.
Can you recall anything else that might be enlightening?
Jim: Stay with static - it's much too early for dynamics.
Gord
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Gord,
If you put a jack under something and jack it clear of other support, the jack is pushing up 1-something worth on the something. At the same time, the jack is pushing down on the ground 1-something worth. So, the jack is looking at 1-something worth of load from both ends, but they are not additive as the load is all in the same direction and there is no intermediate anchor.
Don't feel bad, it took me a while - too.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127745 is a reply to message #127730] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 10:30 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gord,
Looking at the picture, I see that lot of people will freak out.
All you do is fill the bag and it will pop into position. Saves time and effort.
The load on the Q Bag at static positon is equal, but when a wheel is
raised,that one will transfer more pressure on that bag. We supply the
manifold to adjust for that type of driving by allowing the high
pressure from that bag to the other to try to equal the load.
When driving on normal situation we isolate each bag independently ,
but when we drive it up on a ramp we open the valves to share the
pressure.
Now you know why we have the manifold on these units.
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
> Sometime back I asked if the right rear arm was the same as the left front (we're talking completely about the bogies here) - and the answer came back as yes, so I believe there's only 2 "parts" used for each bogie set and they're apparentely equal.
>
> Best as I can work out (doing this on the fly), if the mounting point of the airbag is the same distance from the center (those pesky bogie pins) as the wheel center is, each arm should be applying your 2000 pounds. That's 2000 each - forcing against the bag from each end so 4000 total 'in the bag'.
>
> If the distances were as mentioned, if you took out the airbag and stuffed in a scale of some sort (hungry man's bathroom scale?) :lol: and dropped the wheels to the ground, it should read 4000. If you put a jack directly under the center of one tire and lifted that single tire/wheel/bogie arm, letting its mate stay on the ground, the scale should still read pretty darn close to 4000 - there might be some changes as there's angles to consider versus the two pivot points (the two bogie pins), but I don't think they would amount to great values.
>
> I think that's it...then again, it's early. ;) Â Oh, if the airbag mounting point is of a different length than the axle center to bogie pin distance, there's math required for the leverage (or lack of) the axle has over the airbag mounting point.
>
> It's still raining or I'd go measure but I have a feeling the leverage point of the bag is less than the axle distance, so that means 2K at the axle might mean (guessing) 2200 at the bag, then x 2 = 4400. If it's more, it might mean (guessing) 1800 at the bag ( x 2 = 3600#).
>
> Gord :)
>
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy! http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127751 is a reply to message #127733] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 11:15 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Also, to throw more stuff in the fan. When you place a load on the single
airbag by moving a suspension member, IF the companion wheel & tire is not
subjected to the same movement, the air pressure in the bag will increase
due to the decreased volume in the bag brought about when you move the
suspension. I wonder if the GMC engineers had strain gages and/or recording
pressure charting instrumentation on the pie wagon when they ran it over the
4 X 4s. Be interesting to see what kind of data they came up with. Boggles
the mind, it does. Yoda lives.<Grin> In case you guys haven't noticed, so
far this morning I have enjoyed stirring your minds up a little. I attended
a funeral service and luncheon and internment service in honor of my oldest
brother in law yesterday. He was a WW2 veteran of the US Navy in the Pacific
Theater aboard PT boats. He was involved in the Group of PT guys that
restored PT 568, now berthed at Swan Island Naval Reserve Center in
Portland, OR. Currently the only remaining operational example of a fully
equipped PT in existence. His internment was a full military one with a flag
that was previously flown over the US Capitol draped over his casket, and
folded by a Navy honor guard & presented to his widow, my sister. That was
expertly done. Then they got out the electronic bugle and played taps,
followed by the rifle squad of VFW guys that also had some kind of bolt
action electronic rifles that instead of a 21 gun salute turned into a 14
gun salute due to inoperative electronic devices. That left a little to be
desired in my opinion, and brought a smile to my face which was quickly
drowned out by the sudden thunderstorm and resulting downpour that soaked me
to my shorts in 10 seconds flat. Somehow fitting on such a somber occasion.
I guess thats what I get for trying to see a little humor in others
misfortune. Of such things, memories are made, Don't ever forget the
contributions of our Veterans. Have a great Memorial Day weekend everyone.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> I can gather the transfer one wheel to another - just don't see how the bag
> could not be seeing the sum.
>
> I was looking at this picture:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=34665
>
> ...and eyeballing it, the leverage of the bag connection point is oh, 75%
> of that of the axle? So 2K at the axle should need some 2600 lbs at the bag
> to hold one wheel up.
>
> Can you recall anything else that might be enlightening?
>
> Jim: Stay with static - it's much too early for dynamics. :lol:
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127758 is a reply to message #127755] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 11:54 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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What the heck, it's Saturday, we now have the worms for bait, lets go
fishing.<Grin>
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> Oh Gezz, I opened another can of worms!
>
> Thanks Matt for the short and sweet answer.
> :?
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI and ESC.
> Hubler front end installed and WOW! !:)
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127762 is a reply to message #127758] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 12:20 |
Surbo
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 11:54 |
What the heck, it's Saturday, we now have the worms for bait, lets go
fishing.<Grin>
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> Oh Gezz, I opened another can of worms!
>
> Thanks Matt for the short and sweet answer.
> 
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI and ESC.
> Hubler front end installed and WOW! !
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Firestone has this all calculated for you...download this pdf file;
http://www.fsip.com/pdfs/OE/AirideDG.pdf
Bob Drewes in SESD
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| Re: Airbag loading question [message #127763 is a reply to message #127742] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 12:25 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| mcolie wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 11:10 |
Gord,
If you put a jack under something and jack it clear of other support, the jack is pushing up 1-something worth on the something. At the same time, the jack is pushing down on the ground 1-something worth. So, the jack is looking at 1-something worth of load from both ends, but they are not additive as the load is all in the same direction and there is no intermediate anchor.
Don't feel bad, it took me a while - too.
Matt
|
Hi Matt,
Thanks - I can invision the 'transmission' from one and other, sort of get there might not be sums but I have a feeling if anything it has to do with bag being at an angle to our true measurement of weight (vertical), no?
Gord
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| Re: Airbag loading question [message #127765 is a reply to message #127730] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 12:41 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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We could measure this with a load cell. I have one that only goes to 1000 lbs, so I won't risk damaging it, I use it for work, and they cost about $1K, but if someone out there has one that is good for 3-5K lBS, we could settle this with actual data...
| gordh1 wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 06:55 |
Hi Bruce,
Sometime back I asked if the right rear arm was the same as the left front (we're talking completely about the bogies here) - and the answer came back as yes, so I believe there's only 2 "parts" used for each bogie set and they're apparentely equal.
Best as I can work out (doing this on the fly), if the mounting point of the airbag is the same distance from the center (those pesky bogie pins) as the wheel center is, each arm should be applying your 2000 pounds. That's 2000 each - forcing against the bag from each end so 4000 total 'in the bag'.
If the distances were as mentioned, if you took out the airbag and stuffed in a scale of some sort (hungry man's bathroom scale?) and dropped the wheels to the ground, it should read 4000. If you put a jack directly under the center of one tire and lifted that single tire/wheel/bogie arm, letting its mate stay on the ground, the scale should still read pretty darn close to 4000 - there might be some changes as there's angles to consider versus the two pivot points (the two bogie pins), but I don't think they would amount to great values.
I think that's it...then again, it's early. Oh, if the airbag mounting point is of a different length than the axle center to bogie pin distance, there's math required for the leverage (or lack of) the axle has over the airbag mounting point.
It's still raining or I'd go measure but I have a feeling the leverage point of the bag is less than the axle distance, so that means 2K at the axle might mean (guessing) 2200 at the bag, then x 2 = 4400. If it's more, it might mean (guessing) 1800 at the bag ( x 2 = 3600#).
Gord
|
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127770 is a reply to message #127767] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 12:56 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Sit in the back seat of either car :)
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew <reynhout@quesera.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:53:36
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question
I keep coming back to two models that must be wrong:
1a. Big giant guy pushes you with all his strength into a brick wall. The force applied to you by the guy is 1, the force you apply to him (when your squishing point reaches maximum) is 1. The force you apply to the wall is 1. The force the wall applies to you is 1. You get hurt.
1b. Big giant guy and his twin brother push you with all their strength combined from opposite sides. Are the forces not additive? Does it hurt just as much as 1a?
.. and ..
2. Head on collision of two equal weight cars traveling at equal but opposite velocities, versus one of those cars crashing into a brick wall.
...
Looking at the bogie arms, it looks like the mechanical advantage INCREASES the force transmitted to the bag. Some is lost to the shocks and the tire sidewalls and maybe some flex in the members, and the full force remaining might not make it to the bag due to angle of application... but I'm clearly out of my depth.
...
(will stick to the sorts of engineering where errors rarely translate to injuries...) :)
--
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
Savannah, GA
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127775 is a reply to message #127763] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 13:32 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Am out here at the Pinto Bean. What's the correct psi for the stock bags?
On Saturday, May 28, 2011, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> mcolie wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 11:10
>> Gord,
>>
>> If you put a jack under something and jack it clear of other support, the jack is pushing up 1-something worth on the something. At the same time, the jack is pushing down on the ground 1-something worth. So, the jack is looking at 1-something worth of load from both ends, but they are not additive as the load is all in the same direction and there is no intermediate anchor.
>>
>> Don't feel bad, it took me a while - too.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> Thanks - I can invision the 'transmission' from one and other, sort of get there might not be sums but I have a feeling if anything it has to do with bag being at an angle to our true measurement of weight (vertical), no?
>
> Gord :)
>
> --
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Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] Airbag loading question [message #127779 is a reply to message #127775] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 13:51 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Robin Hood wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 13:32 |
Am out here at the Pinto Bean. What's the correct psi for the stock bags?
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Manual says the compressor will keep them between 100 and 120 psi.
Ride height (to top of marker hole) should be 13-1/8" in the front and 11-11/16" in the back.
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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