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| [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127688] |
Fri, 27 May 2011 20:09  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Gord,
OK, now that I understand what you intend to do I figger'd starting a new
thread would be apropos.
I reckon the guys that designed the GMC isolated the aluminum body from the
steel frame buy using rubber strips NOT to make assembly easier but to
reduce the effect the steel frame flexing has on the aluminum body.
I have read here MANY times the beneficial effects replacing the flattened
out body strips with thick spacers from Bert & Faye Curtis has on the road
noise level in the GMC.
I would suggest you log on to the Forum and do a search for "Body Pads" and
read what has been said.
Here's a link to what John Shotwell did:
http://www.bdub.net/Isolation_Pad_Replacement.pdf
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127705 is a reply to message #127697] |
Fri, 27 May 2011 22:07  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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They used to have rigid box on frame vehicles. They had a long thing that
stuck out from under the steering axle that singletrees or doubletrees
attatched to with leather straps called harness or tack. Believe they called
them buckboard wagons. Had iron bound wood spoke wheels. They put the
suspension under the seats. Road roughly if I remember rightly. Please
don't. Vibration is responsible for a lot of fractures in metal stuff. The
air bags and rubber pads are there for a reason.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Rob, hi Emery,
> Thanks for the link Rob - good read.
>
> Well, someone's gotta try something different and I like doing different.
> ;)
>
> I'm after substantial gain in chassis strength and stability and the only
> way I can win that one is to introduce some 'vertical' in to the package.
> Might as well start with the body shell and see how it takes it.
>
> The front suspension and drivetrain are rubber bushed everywhere and that's
> a lot of 'give' to start. The rear is another story as the bogie stuff is
> all rigid mount with the shocks as the exception...but I'm working on that
> part albeit slowly.
>
> I'll try to get some pics this weekend if the weather clears so everyone
> can see the bend in the aluminium floor beams with no load other than the
> body itself - it's not a good thing. It would be lessened if there was a
> floor and some weight inside to compress the aluminium back on to the frame,
> but here's physics - and what I see is that due to the overhang of even the
> empty body weight levered over the side of the steel frame, the aluminium
> floor beams are constantly being worked and for sure, the rubber underneath
> them.
>
> I can always get a comfy seat to suck up the bumps, and rubber mount
> cabinets if dishes rattle too much... that or a more powerful sound system?
> :lol:
>
> Gord
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127710 is a reply to message #127697] |
Fri, 27 May 2011 22:50 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Gord,
I found one of the aluminum floor joists at the right rear cut off and
another butchered down to about 1/4 strength (to allow the Onan to be
installed). That allowed the body to sag about 1-1/2"-2" in that
area. I cantilevered steel beams across the chassis, with rubber
pads, to restore the strength of the joists and lift the body back
where it belongs.
So, I sympathize with your concern about the joists sagging outside
the frame and not supporting the body properly. But I don't agree
with your solution of eliminating the rubber isolation between the
body and chassis. The dramatic improvement in noise and vibration
with new pads demonstrates just how important they are. What I might
attempt, if I had more joists sagging, would be to put outriggers on
the chassis at each joist WITH rubber isolation pads between them and
the joists. Seems to me that would tend to alleviate the sagging
without the deleterious side effects of hard mounting. But it might
be necessary to reinforce the frame rails to counteract the twisting
moment of the outriggers.
Without specifically looking to see, it seems to me that you're
over-rating the front suspension joint isolation -- IIRC, the bushings
in even light weight uni-body cars are much larger than on the GMC.
And, of course, the total absence of isolation in the rear means
you'll transfer every road surface jiggle directly to the body -- I
don't think the joints were designed to take it even 30+ years ago,
much less now.
JWID -- But you seem to have your mind made up, so I'm anxious to hear
the results. :-)
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Rob, hi Emery,
> Thanks for the link Rob - good read.
>
> Well, someone's gotta try something different and I like doing different. ;)
>
> I'm after substantial gain in chassis strength and stability and the only way I can win that one is to introduce some 'vertical' in to the package. Might as well start with the body shell and see how it takes it.
>...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127716 is a reply to message #127705] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 01:03 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Have the Firestone Transforce tires been around that long?
With those tires, if my coach had a vinyl top, I'd change its name to Conestoga!
Larry Davick
On May 27, 2011, at 8:07 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> They used to have rigid box on frame vehicles. They had a long thing that
> stuck out from under the steering axle that singletrees or doubletrees
> attatched to with leather straps called harness or tack. Believe they called
> them buckboard wagons. Had iron bound wood spoke wheels. They put the
> suspension under the seats. Road roughly if I remember rightly. Please
> don't. Vibration is responsible for a lot of fractures in metal stuff. The
> air bags and rubber pads are there for a reason.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Rob, hi Emery,
>> Thanks for the link Rob - good read.
>>
>> Well, someone's gotta try something different and I like doing different.
>> ;)
>>
>> I'm after substantial gain in chassis strength and stability and the only
>> way I can win that one is to introduce some 'vertical' in to the package.
>> Might as well start with the body shell and see how it takes it.
>>
>> The front suspension and drivetrain are rubber bushed everywhere and that's
>> a lot of 'give' to start. The rear is another story as the bogie stuff is
>> all rigid mount with the shocks as the exception...but I'm working on that
>> part albeit slowly.
>>
>> I'll try to get some pics this weekend if the weather clears so everyone
>> can see the bend in the aluminium floor beams with no load other than the
>> body itself - it's not a good thing. It would be lessened if there was a
>> floor and some weight inside to compress the aluminium back on to the frame,
>> but here's physics - and what I see is that due to the overhang of even the
>> empty body weight levered over the side of the steel frame, the aluminium
>> floor beams are constantly being worked and for sure, the rubber underneath
>> them.
>>
>> I can always get a comfy seat to suck up the bumps, and rubber mount
>> cabinets if dishes rattle too much... that or a more powerful sound system?
>> :lol:
>>
>> Gord
>> --
>> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
>> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127722 is a reply to message #127688] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 07:34 |
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Other things to consider. Unless changed I think you will find that the toilet drain will be too close to the bottom of the holding tank, your shifter position indicator will not be accurate, your air cleaner will likely hit the floor of the doghouse, more?? But mainly, your interior road noise level will be significantly higher.
But if that is what you want to do, I'd say go for it! It's your coach and, so far at least, the government hasn't legislated against this particular move.
Bill Brown - '77 Buckeye Cruiser
Coshocton OH
carguybill@sbcglobal.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127724 is a reply to message #127710] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 07:48 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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Hi Ken, thanks.
Yes, the outriggers are for sure - nice angles with gussets that should put the load of the body in to the frame more evenly and I think there's only one place where I may have to add a frame cross member as all the others land on or very close to existing. Indeed, my mind is set and as nobody seems to have tried it, it gives me that much more reason to give it a go to see what will happen. 
Sure, it may be a complete PITA and auditory nightmare, but I have a good feeling it won't be as bad as that - and I just have to try. The cross section of the floor beams is about 3/4" and those added angles would be set that distance lower than the real frame, attached, and then the whole floor skinned flat and level and fastened throughout.
Mine is also missing a fair chunk out of the left rear where an Onan once lived, then there's one cross beam that had a section cut out and a nifty strengthener added...because it just happens to have landed...where a waste vent needed to be. Both become non-issues as the rear is getting clipped to just behind the rearmost wheel, and I'll only need the 8 or so inches of floor beam on each side to sit and make a level base for the new floor.
I guess it's the '73 and 74 models that rely soley on a sheet of plywood to be the floor from just forward of the rear wheel covers to just behind them. That really surprised me versus the later models which by the drawings run a couple of parallel to the frame floor beams, and 3 or so cross beams in that area.
Maybe someone can confirm - later models went to a thinner plywood floor and sheet urethane insulation attached under that? The one inch ply is silly - weighs a ton, it's channeled all over the place to fit over the body frame, poorly attached with an occasional rivet and some adhesive that didn't bond (or stay bonded), and...I didn't find one spec of insulation under my floor anywhere. ??
Anyway, I'm keen to give it a try and see what sort of mess or success I might have - this is the game for me and I do enjoy it.
Thanks again Ken,
Gord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127739 is a reply to message #127724] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 09:55 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between the body
and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the top of the fuel
tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these systems is not
unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our ladder frame is
pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body structure to
reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do something
to address the routing of lines and hoses.
Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may want to
simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1 from the 2,
Jim Bounds
----------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sat, May 28, 2011 8:48:02 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Hi Ken, thanks.
Yes, the outriggers are for sure - nice angles with gussets that should put the
load of the body in to the frame more evenly and I think there's only one place
where I may have to add a frame cross member as all the others land on or very
close to existing. Indeed, my mind is set and as nobody seems to have tried it,
it gives me that much more reason to give it a go to see what will happen. :)
Sure, it may be a complete PITA and auditory nightmare, but I have a good
feeling it won't be as bad as that - and I just have to try. The cross section
of the floor beams is about 3/4" and those added angles would be set that
distance lower than the real frame, attached, and then the whole floor skinned
flat and level and fastened throughout.
Mine is also missing a fair chunk out of the left rear where an Onan once lived,
then there's one cross beam that had a section cut out and a nifty strengthener
added...because it just happens to have landed...where a waste vent needed to
be. Both become non-issues as the rear is getting clipped to just behind the
rearmost wheel, and I'll only need the 8 or so inches of floor beam on each side
to sit and make a level base for the new floor.
I guess it's the '73 and 74 models that rely soley on a sheet of plywood to be
the floor from just forward of the rear wheel covers to just behind them. That
really surprised me versus the later models which by the drawings run a couple
of parallel to the frame floor beams, and 3 or so cross beams in that area.
Maybe someone can confirm - later models went to a thinner plywood floor and
sheet urethane insulation attached under that? The one inch ply is silly -
weighs a ton, it's channeled all over the place to fit over the body frame,
poorly attached with an occasional rivet and some adhesive that didn't bond (or
stay bonded), and...I didn't find one spec of insulation under my floor
anywhere. ??
Anyway, I'm keen to give it a try and see what sort of mess or success I might
have - this is the game for me and I do enjoy it. :)
Thanks again Ken,
Gord
--
Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127741 is a reply to message #127688] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 10:08 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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The rubber body mounts allow the frame to articulate under the body and reduce the twisting of the frame from out of level road conditions transfer into the coach. At the minimum I believe you will introduce failed body seams. You may even cause window leaks. Unitized body cars are far more rigid than full frame cars and almost all fixed glass is glued in place increasing the rigidity of the structure. I agree with the others that I don't see any benefit to rigid mounting unless you are building a race car.
Sully
77 royale
------Original Message------
From: Gord H
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
ReplyTo: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Sent: May 27, 2011 8:51 PM
James Hupy wrote on Fri, 27 May 2011 23:07
> They used to have rigid box on frame vehicles. They had a long thing that stuck out from under the steering axle that singletrees or doubletrees attatched to with leather straps called harness or tack. Believe they called them buckboard wagons.<snip>
Hi Jim,
Let's not look that far back - let's look back just a little and consider unibody or monocoque construction? Odds are the car you're driving is built this way?
John, yup - noted (it was mentioned in the original thread re dissimilar metals) and I could do the math regarding thermal differences although considering the lengths/sizes and temps, I don't weigh it as a significant issue. (Famous last words). :lol:
Thanks Gents - keep 'em coming!
Gord
--
Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy! http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127768 is a reply to message #127739] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 12:54 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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| Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55 |
Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between the body and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the top of the fuel tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these systems is not unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our ladder frame is
pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body structure to reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do something to address the routing of lines and hoses.
Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may want to simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1 from the 2,
Jim Bounds
----------------------------
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Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were hammered flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk anyway so if and when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their mounts and routes, and never pass lines between frame and body as was done originally - well, that gap won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust only, the body...scruffy, and the interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I couldn't get it out of there fast enough...absolutely unhealthy.
More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite curious to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll need as it's close to being a cow trail!  Actually, if it does turn out horribly, nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit of rubber, but I don't think it will need it and I really want to get some 'vertical' in to the ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about convertibles: (like driving two bricks attached together with a playing card), I understand the ladder is a simple, just not a great design so I'll see if I can make it nicer to 'motor' in.
Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a seam to fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some adhesive they've used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'.  It'll be fun and I won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
Gord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127773 is a reply to message #127768] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 13:07 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Ill know first hand how well bonded the skin is to the front and rear capsules this weekend when I remove the rivits to replace with closed end ones. I hope to reach in the seam to scratch and clean it up some before sealing between and pinning back down. Ill post what I find. I've seen some evidence that its not bound well if at all other than by the rivets.
Sully
77royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:54:41
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55
> Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between the body and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the top of the fuel tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these systems is not unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our ladder frame is
> pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body structure to reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do something to address the routing of lines and hoses.
>
> Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may want to simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1 from the 2,
>
> Jim Bounds
> ----------------------------
Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were hammered flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk anyway so if and when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their mounts and routes, and never pass lines between frame and body as was done originally - well, that gap won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust only, the body...scruffy, and the interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I couldn't get it out of there fast enough...absolutely unhealthy.
More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite curious to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll need as it's close to being a cow trail! :lol: Actually, if it does turn out horribly, nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit of rubber, but I don't think it will need it and I really want to get some 'vertical' in to the ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about convertibles: (like driving two bricks attached together with a playing card), I understand the ladder is a simple, just not a great design so I'll see if I can make it nicer to 'motor' in. :)
Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a seam to fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some adhesive they've used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'. 8o It'll be fun and I won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
Gord :)
--
Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy! http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127776 is a reply to message #127773] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 13:39 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Sully, the front and rear caps were riveted due to the different coefficient
of expansion/contraction rates that exist between the two materials. The
factory used a flexible sealant there. Where the ribs are attatched to the
aluminum or fiberglass outer skin, they used some mix in the tube 2 part
adhesive that is pretty incredible stuff. 3M makes a similar product, has a
very short working time, and is used in similar applications in body repair.
If you have body shop or paint shop experience, you already know what I am
talking about. Do not use that stuff as a flexible sealant. After it cures
it is very ridgid. Those end seams need something akin to a self leveling
sealant like 3M heavy drip check sealer, or sika-flex sealant.
Same thing would apply to the gutter rails that join the roof to the side
panels. Flexible stuff there also. If it says silicone anywhere on it, get
it out of your shop where any paint work is done. It will cause your paint
to fisheye and not adhere to the metal or primer layers under it.
This is one place to learn from the mistakes of others.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMc Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 11:07 AM, <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ill know first hand how well bonded the skin is to the front and rear
> capsules this weekend when I remove the rivits to replace with closed end
> ones. I hope to reach in the seam to scratch and clean it up some before
> sealing between and pinning back down. Ill post what I find. I've seen some
> evidence that its not bound well if at all other than by the rivets.
>
> Sully
> 77royale
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
> Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:54:41
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
>
>
>
> Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55
> > Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between
> the body and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the top
> of the fuel tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these
> systems is not unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our
> ladder frame is
> > pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body structure
> to reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do
> something to address the routing of lines and hoses.
> >
> > Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may
> want to simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1 from
> the 2,
> >
> > Jim Bounds
> > ----------------------------
>
>
> Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were
> hammered flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk
> anyway so if and when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their
> mounts and routes, and never pass lines between frame and body as was done
> originally - well, that gap won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust
> only, the body...scruffy, and the interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I
> couldn't get it out of there fast enough...absolutely unhealthy.
>
> More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite
> curious to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll
> need as it's close to being a cow trail! :lol: Actually, if it does turn
> out horribly, nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit
> of rubber, but I don't think it will need it and I really want to get some
> 'vertical' in to the ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about
> convertibles: (like driving two bricks attached together with a playing
> card), I understand the ladder is a simple, just not a great design so I'll
> see if I can make it nicer to 'motor' in. :)
>
> Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a
> seam to fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some adhesive
> they've used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'. 8o It'll be
> fun and I won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127784 is a reply to message #127776] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 14:00 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yep. Hip on all that James. The 3m sealant is silicone free is paintable and has great adhesive properties but will allow for stretch of the alum skin
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:39:29
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Sully, the front and rear caps were riveted due to the different coefficient
of expansion/contraction rates that exist between the two materials. The
factory used a flexible sealant there. Where the ribs are attatched to the
aluminum or fiberglass outer skin, they used some mix in the tube 2 part
adhesive that is pretty incredible stuff. 3M makes a similar product, has a
very short working time, and is used in similar applications in body repair.
If you have body shop or paint shop experience, you already know what I am
talking about. Do not use that stuff as a flexible sealant. After it cures
it is very ridgid. Those end seams need something akin to a self leveling
sealant like 3M heavy drip check sealer, or sika-flex sealant.
Same thing would apply to the gutter rails that join the roof to the side
panels. Flexible stuff there also. If it says silicone anywhere on it, get
it out of your shop where any paint work is done. It will cause your paint
to fisheye and not adhere to the metal or primer layers under it.
This is one place to learn from the mistakes of others.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMc Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 11:07 AM, <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ill know first hand how well bonded the skin is to the front and rear
> capsules this weekend when I remove the rivits to replace with closed end
> ones. I hope to reach in the seam to scratch and clean it up some before
> sealing between and pinning back down. Ill post what I find. I've seen some
> evidence that its not bound well if at all other than by the rivets.
>
> Sully
> 77royale
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
> Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:54:41
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
>
>
>
> Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55
> > Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between
> the body and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the top
> of the fuel tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these
> systems is not unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our
> ladder frame is
> > pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body structure
> to reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do
> something to address the routing of lines and hoses.
> >
> > Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may
> want to simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1 from
> the 2,
> >
> > Jim Bounds
> > ----------------------------
>
>
> Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were
> hammered flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk
> anyway so if and when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their
> mounts and routes, and never pass lines between frame and body as was done
> originally - well, that gap won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust
> only, the body...scruffy, and the interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I
> couldn't get it out of there fast enough...absolutely unhealthy.
>
> More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite
> curious to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll
> need as it's close to being a cow trail! :lol: Actually, if it does turn
> out horribly, nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit
> of rubber, but I don't think it will need it and I really want to get some
> 'vertical' in to the ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about
> convertibles: (like driving two bricks attached together with a playing
> card), I understand the ladder is a simple, just not a great design so I'll
> see if I can make it nicer to 'motor' in. :)
>
> Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a
> seam to fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some adhesive
> they've used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'. 8o It'll be
> fun and I won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #127836 is a reply to message #127784] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 19:21 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sully,
Just wondering if the part number of the 3M sealant is 5200?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of sgltrac@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 5:00 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Yep. Hip on all that James. The 3m sealant is silicone free is paintable and
has great adhesive properties but will allow for stretch of the alum skin
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:39:29
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Sully, the front and rear caps were riveted due to the different coefficient
of expansion/contraction rates that exist between the two materials. The
factory used a flexible sealant there. Where the ribs are attatched to the
aluminum or fiberglass outer skin, they used some mix in the tube 2 part
adhesive that is pretty incredible stuff. 3M makes a similar product, has a
very short working time, and is used in similar applications in body repair.
If you have body shop or paint shop experience, you already know what I am
talking about. Do not use that stuff as a flexible sealant. After it cures
it is very ridgid. Those end seams need something akin to a self leveling
sealant like 3M heavy drip check sealer, or sika-flex sealant.
Same thing would apply to the gutter rails that join the roof to the side
panels. Flexible stuff there also. If it says silicone anywhere on it, get
it out of your shop where any paint work is done. It will cause your paint
to fisheye and not adhere to the metal or primer layers under it.
This is one place to learn from the mistakes of others.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMc Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 11:07 AM, <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ill know first hand how well bonded the skin is to the front and rear
> capsules this weekend when I remove the rivits to replace with closed end
> ones. I hope to reach in the seam to scratch and clean it up some before
> sealing between and pinning back down. Ill post what I find. I've seen
some
> evidence that its not bound well if at all other than by the rivets.
>
> Sully
> 77royale
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
> Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:54:41
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel
frame
>
>
>
> Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55
> > Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between
> the body and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the
top
> of the fuel tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these
> systems is not unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our
> ladder frame is
> > pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body
structure
> to reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do
> something to address the routing of lines and hoses.
> >
> > Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may
> want to simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1
from
> the 2,
> >
> > Jim Bounds
> > ----------------------------
>
>
> Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were
> hammered flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk
> anyway so if and when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their
> mounts and routes, and never pass lines between frame and body as was done
> originally - well, that gap won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust
> only, the body...scruffy, and the interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I
> couldn't get it out of there fast enough...absolutely unhealthy.
>
> More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite
> curious to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll
> need as it's close to being a cow trail! :lol: Actually, if it does turn
> out horribly, nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit
> of rubber, but I don't think it will need it and I really want to get some
> 'vertical' in to the ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about
> convertibles: (like driving two bricks attached together with a playing
> card), I understand the ladder is a simple, just not a great design so
I'll
> see if I can make it nicer to 'motor' in. :)
>
> Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a
> seam to fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some
adhesive
> they've used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'. 8o It'll
be
> fun and I won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #128045 is a reply to message #127768] |
Tue, 31 May 2011 06:03 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hey, we all live here in America and you are set free to do things any way you
like. I will say that the original design was that of a floating body, a
flexible tube that would give with the road conditions and that was one of the
unique tings of the GMC. To my knowledge it is the only vehicle designed in
this way. It will be interesting to see if the structure can be made to be
rigid with no downsides-- good luck. The real test will be on the open smooth
road-- will there be undesired vibrations and road noise from bolting the frame
directly to thr body. Good luck, let me know how it goes-- oh and remember, if
you pull down the body to the chasis, you may have clearance issues between the
engine cover and air cleaner. also, you may be crushing the hoses on the top of
the fuel tanks. You will need to consider these issues ans "unexpected results"
from your doing that. Good luck,
Jim Bounds
--------------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sat, May 28, 2011 1:54:41 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55
> Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between the body
>and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the top of the fuel
>tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these systems is not
>unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our ladder frame is
>
> pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body structure to
>reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do something
>to address the routing of lines and hoses.
>
> Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may want to
>simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1 from the 2,
>
> Jim Bounds
> ----------------------------
Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were hammered
flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk anyway so if and
when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their mounts and routes, and
never pass lines between frame and body as was done originally - well, that gap
won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust only, the body...scruffy, and the
interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I couldn't get it out of there fast
enough...absolutely unhealthy.
More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite curious
to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll need as it's
close to being a cow trail! :lol: Actually, if it does turn out horribly,
nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit of rubber, but I
don't think it will need it and I really want to get some 'vertical' in to the
ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about convertibles: (like
driving two bricks attached together with a playing card), I understand the
ladder is a simple, just not a great design so I'll see if I can make it nicer
to 'motor' in. :)
Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a seam to
fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some adhesive they've
used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'. 8o It'll be fun and I
won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
Gord :)
--
Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
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|
| Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame [message #128113 is a reply to message #127836] |
Tue, 31 May 2011 19:23 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
8370. Grey
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:21:15
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Sully,
Just wondering if the part number of the 3M sealant is 5200?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of sgltrac@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 5:00 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Yep. Hip on all that James. The 3m sealant is silicone free is paintable and
has great adhesive properties but will allow for stretch of the alum skin
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:39:29
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel frame
Sully, the front and rear caps were riveted due to the different coefficient
of expansion/contraction rates that exist between the two materials. The
factory used a flexible sealant there. Where the ribs are attatched to the
aluminum or fiberglass outer skin, they used some mix in the tube 2 part
adhesive that is pretty incredible stuff. 3M makes a similar product, has a
very short working time, and is used in similar applications in body repair.
If you have body shop or paint shop experience, you already know what I am
talking about. Do not use that stuff as a flexible sealant. After it cures
it is very ridgid. Those end seams need something akin to a self leveling
sealant like 3M heavy drip check sealer, or sika-flex sealant.
Same thing would apply to the gutter rails that join the roof to the side
panels. Flexible stuff there also. If it says silicone anywhere on it, get
it out of your shop where any paint work is done. It will cause your paint
to fisheye and not adhere to the metal or primer layers under it.
This is one place to learn from the mistakes of others.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMc Royale 403
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 11:07 AM, <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ill know first hand how well bonded the skin is to the front and rear
> capsules this weekend when I remove the rivits to replace with closed end
> ones. I hope to reach in the seam to scratch and clean it up some before
> sealing between and pinning back down. Ill post what I find. I've seen
some
> evidence that its not bound well if at all other than by the rivets.
>
> Sully
> 77royale
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com>
> Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 12:54:41
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bolting the aluminum body directly to the steel
frame
>
>
>
> Jim Bounds wrote on Sat, 28 May 2011 10:55
> > Have not followed this thread but you really need a 1/2" or so between
> the body and frame for the brake lines, air lines and fuel lines on the
top
> of the fuel tanks-- they need that gap to clear. Crushed hoses in these
> systems is not unusual at all! Without the body supporting the frame, our
> ladder frame is
> > pretty wimpy-- I appreciate the idea of using the aluminum body
structure
> to reinforce the frame (if thats what you are thinking) but you must do
> something to address the routing of lines and hoses.
> >
> > Good luck, sounds like a last ditch effort to save the coach, you may
> want to simply get another coach with a goof frame and body then make 1
from
> the 2,
> >
> > Jim Bounds
> > ----------------------------
>
>
> Hi Jim and thanks. Yes, I did find LP lines amongst others that were
> hammered flat - sort of scary if you think about it. They were all junk
> anyway so if and when replaced, I would really work hard to rethink their
> mounts and routes, and never pass lines between frame and body as was done
> originally - well, that gap won't exist. The frame is good - surface rust
> only, the body...scruffy, and the interior was junk - rotten, stinky and I
> couldn't get it out of there fast enough...absolutely unhealthy.
>
> More than a motorhome, it's a hobby - it's an experiment and I am quite
> curious to see what will happen...and a drive down my street is all I'll
> need as it's close to being a cow trail! :lol: Actually, if it does turn
> out horribly, nothing would stop me from lifting the body and adding a bit
> of rubber, but I don't think it will need it and I really want to get some
> 'vertical' in to the ladder frame. Akin to what Jeremy Clarkson said about
> convertibles: (like driving two bricks attached together with a playing
> card), I understand the ladder is a simple, just not a great design so
I'll
> see if I can make it nicer to 'motor' in. :)
>
> Sully, yup, got it, and actually quite interested to see if I can get a
> seam to fail. I was reading up on panel replacement and that's some
adhesive
> they've used when it mentions 'remove panel with air chisel'. 8o It'll
be
> fun and I won't be shy to say if it worked or was intolerable.
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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_______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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