Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior...
| [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126960] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 12:36  |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I thoroughly surveyed the entire salvage yard inventory of GM, Ford,
and Mopar vehicles. There was not a single dome-style 8-lug wheel to
be found. Fortunately, one of the salvage yard girls is a roller derby
friend of mine, and she'll keep an eye out for me, and was also able
to tell me about some other truck-specific salvage yards in the area
that are not open on Sundays.
Worst case scenario seems to be that I can put the "wrong" rims on the
front (right???), and there's an abundance of those at the salvage
yards. Between the two barn coach fronts and the spares from the barn
coach and mine, that would technically get her rolling, at least
temporarily and sufficiently unto the purpose of trailing her. I would
prefer some junker wheels so I have to do a minimum of
Three-Wheel-Monte.
Somebody asked that I shoot a walkthrough of my coach, so I went by
there. My driver's side airbag appears to be deflated, whether through
a leak in the bag or the air system. I was unable to see any air lines
to speak of. I also found three or four unused battery cables flopping
around loose in the battery tray. The wire that got overheated appears
to go from a negative terminal to ground. Perhaps while the engine was
running, juice was getting pumped into the non-existent battery, and
something had a short path to ground?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMTSJEjLtg
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126963 is a reply to message #126960] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:12  |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Robin,
If these wheels are simply needed for transporting the rig couldn't you mount any wheel with the correct lug spacing and center hole backwards? In my mind's eye the wheels would stand proud of the body but at least they should roll.
Now I don't know if this would make the width too great to transport, but I doubt it would.
Any thoughts?
Larry Davick
On May 22, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Robin Hood <loxley@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thoroughly surveyed the entire salvage yard inventory of GM, Ford,
> and Mopar vehicles. There was not a single dome-style 8-lug wheel to
> be found. Fortunately, one of the salvage yard girls is a roller derby
> friend of mine, and she'll keep an eye out for me, and was also able
> to tell me about some other truck-specific salvage yards in the area
> that are not open on Sundays.
>
> Worst case scenario seems to be that I can put the "wrong" rims on the
> front (right???), and there's an abundance of those at the salvage
> yards. Between the two barn coach fronts and the spares from the barn
> coach and mine, that would technically get her rolling, at least
> temporarily and sufficiently unto the purpose of trailing her. I would
> prefer some junker wheels so I have to do a minimum of
> Three-Wheel-Monte.
>
> Somebody asked that I shoot a walkthrough of my coach, so I went by
> there. My driver's side airbag appears to be deflated, whether through
> a leak in the bag or the air system. I was unable to see any air lines
> to speak of. I also found three or four unused battery cables flopping
> around loose in the battery tray. The wire that got overheated appears
> to go from a negative terminal to ground. Perhaps while the engine was
> running, juice was getting pumped into the non-existent battery, and
> something had a short path to ground?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMTSJEjLtg
>
>
>
> --
> Robin Hood
> Jackson, MS
> 2003 Buick Lesabre
> 1968 Pontiac Catalina
> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126964 is a reply to message #126963] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:18 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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For your information;
Steel wheels are stamped, there have been several times where people
were having vibration issues with them.
Al. wheels overcome that but the cost is still there.
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net> wrote:
> Robin,
>
> If these wheels are simply needed for transporting the rig couldn't you mount any wheel with the correct lug spacing and center hole backwards? Â In my mind's eye the wheels would stand proud of the body but at least they should roll.
>
> Now I don't know if this would make the width too great to transport, but I doubt it would.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Larry Davick
>
> On May 22, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Robin Hood <loxley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I thoroughly surveyed the entire salvage yard inventory of GM, Ford,
>> and Mopar vehicles. There was not a single dome-style 8-lug wheel to
>> be found. Fortunately, one of the salvage yard girls is a roller derby
>> friend of mine, and she'll keep an eye out for me, and was also able
>> to tell me about some other truck-specific salvage yards in the area
>> that are not open on Sundays.
>>
>> Worst case scenario seems to be that I can put the "wrong" rims on the
>> front (right???), and there's an abundance of those at the salvage
>> yards. Between the two barn coach fronts and the spares from the barn
>> coach and mine, that would technically get her rolling, at least
>> temporarily and sufficiently unto the purpose of trailing her. I would
>> prefer some junker wheels so I have to do a minimum of
>> Three-Wheel-Monte.
>>
>> Somebody asked that I shoot a walkthrough of my coach, so I went by
>> there. My driver's side airbag appears to be deflated, whether through
>> a leak in the bag or the air system. I was unable to see any air lines
>> to speak of. I also found three or four unused battery cables flopping
>> around loose in the battery tray. The wire that got overheated appears
>> to go from a negative terminal to ground. Perhaps while the engine was
>> running, juice was getting pumped into the non-existent battery, and
>> something had a short path to ground?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMTSJEjLtg
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robin Hood
>> Jackson, MS
>> 2003 Buick Lesabre
>> 1968 Pontiac Catalina
>> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126965 is a reply to message #126963] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:26 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I don't mind mounting wheels backwards. It's just temporary after all.
I saw some plans on the photosite for 12-ton jack stands built of 2x4s
and I need to spend some quality time with my carpenter uncle anyway.
If it's only to roll onto and off of a trailer, and is soon supported
by jack stands, does anyone see any problem with mounting wheels
backwards?
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net> wrote:
> Robin,
>
> If these wheels are simply needed for transporting the rig couldn't you mount any wheel with the correct lug spacing and center hole backwards? In my mind's eye the wheels would stand proud of the body but at least they should roll.
>
> Now I don't know if this would make the width too great to transport, but I doubt it would.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Larry Davick
>
>
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126966 is a reply to message #126965] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:49 |
Don A
Messages: 895
Registered: October 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Karma: 0
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Robin
ANY 60's into 90's 8 lug wheel from a GMC, Chevy or Dodge should bolt right up. Newer one's have gone metric on the lug nut circle. To be sure, just check the distance across the lug holes to be 6.5" GMC's wheel center bore is the smallest of any I know of, but just to be confident, you can measure it also.
Why not just move your drivable one to a short time, temp location. Jack it up, block it up and put the wheels on the other. Tow it, park it in it's working space, block it up and return the wheels and park the Royale in front.
Wasting way too much energy and bandwidth on this wheel thing!
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba
[IMG]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6109/G2.jpg[/IMG]
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126969 is a reply to message #126960] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 14:45 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Robin,
I see nothing wrong with using 'whatever fits' for a temporary fix. Recall though - if the wheels extend past the bodywork, you might want to go for the 4x4 with the threaded rod to replace the airbags just in case. If a bag decides to quit, the wheel(s) are going to make a mess of the side of the coach, and that would be a real headache.
I just ripped heaps... *heaps* of tubing out of Scruffy for the air system. One bag holds for a couple of weeks, the other for a day or less - and I don't even have to look because I can hear the problem: it's one of the valves at the dash that's leaking constantly (mine is first gen stuff).
The more I see the more I want to follow the 'KISS' (keep it simple stupid) philosophy - there's just too many places things can leak so at least for the moment, the air system is getting reduced to a couple of lines with a couple of valves. Period.
Looking good btw - finger too. 
Gord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126972 is a reply to message #126960] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 14:56 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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From the first bit of the video I could see that the air line has been disconnected from your airbag and a schraeder valve installed in its place. I didn't see any fender liner by the passenger side front wheel either.
Larry Davick
On May 22, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Robin Hood <loxley@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thoroughly surveyed the entire salvage yard inventory of GM, Ford,
> and Mopar vehicles. There was not a single dome-style 8-lug wheel to
> be found. Fortunately, one of the salvage yard girls is a roller derby
> friend of mine, and she'll keep an eye out for me, and was also able
> to tell me about some other truck-specific salvage yards in the area
> that are not open on Sundays.
>
> Worst case scenario seems to be that I can put the "wrong" rims on the
> front (right???), and there's an abundance of those at the salvage
> yards. Between the two barn coach fronts and the spares from the barn
> coach and mine, that would technically get her rolling, at least
> temporarily and sufficiently unto the purpose of trailing her. I would
> prefer some junker wheels so I have to do a minimum of
> Three-Wheel-Monte.
>
> Somebody asked that I shoot a walkthrough of my coach, so I went by
> there. My driver's side airbag appears to be deflated, whether through
> a leak in the bag or the air system. I was unable to see any air lines
> to speak of. I also found three or four unused battery cables flopping
> around loose in the battery tray. The wire that got overheated appears
> to go from a negative terminal to ground. Perhaps while the engine was
> running, juice was getting pumped into the non-existent battery, and
> something had a short path to ground?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMTSJEjLtg
>
>
>
> --
> Robin Hood
> Jackson, MS
> 2003 Buick Lesabre
> 1968 Pontiac Catalina
> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126978 is a reply to message #126972] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 16:06 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| ljdavick wrote on Sun, 22 May 2011 12:56 |
From the first bit of the video I could see that the air line has been disconnected from your airbag and a schraeder valve installed in its place. I didn't see any fender liner by the passenger side front wheel either.
|
That is basicly what I see also.
I also see that you have the Electro-Level 2 system. (Only installed during the last part of the 1978 model year.) It has no air tank and very few airlines and valves. (Compared to the Electro-Level (1) system.) BUT it does have TWO air compressors. (One for each side.) The location of the pumps will vary by coach lay-out. If I where to start looking in your coach I would start under the driver's side bunk... just aft of the refrigerator.
For info: I currently own all 3 systems and I personally think the EL2 system is the best system as almost all of the airlines and valves have been replaced with electronics. (70's electronics though.)
BATTERY AREA ---
When watching your video of the battery area, I kept wanting you to pan "up" to the boost switch area. You got close... just not enough to "see." I am fairly certain you have the ground attached backwards on your battery. Your one battery seems to be connected between the CHASSIS positive and the HOUSE negative (ground). It looks like someone has added some cables when they should have been replacing. (Not removing the old or un-used cables.) THEN I suspect the guy you bought the coach from connected up the one battery to start the coach... to what ever ground was handy.
There are two ground systems in your coach. House and chassis... they are NOT the same and the few places the do cross (like the small ground wire that got hot) will do strange things if these are confused.
You need a "real" GMC'er, or at least someone who can read a schematic*, to go though... connect up what you need and remove what you do not.
DO NOT RECONNECT YOUR BATTERY(S) UNTIL YOU GET THIS FIXED.
* This "schematic reading person" needs to be open minded and not someone who "thinks" they already know something.... OBTW, you DO have a schematic don't you?
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126979 is a reply to message #126978] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 16:10 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| mike miller wrote on Sun, 22 May 2011 14:06 |
...
I also see that you have the Electro-Level 2 system. ...
|
With the EL2 system the only air line in the wheel-well should connect to the airbag at the same point as the schrader valve you pointed too. You airbag is already isolated... it has a leak. It might be at the fitting or the o-ring... but could be the bag itself.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126987 is a reply to message #126969] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 16:59 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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sounds like a good candidate for the
wireless air
http://gmcmotorhome.info/wireless.html
gene
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Robin,
> I see nothing wrong with using 'whatever fits' for a temporary fix. Recall
> though - if the wheels extend past the bodywork, you might want to go for
> the 4x4 with the threaded rod to replace the airbags just in case. If a bag
> decides to quit, the wheel(s) are going to make a mess of the side of the
> coach, and that would be a real headache.
>
> I just ripped heaps... *heaps* of tubing out of Scruffy for the air system.
> One bag holds for a couple of weeks, the other for a day or less - and I
> don't even have to look because I can hear the problem: it's one of the
> valves at the dash that's leaking constantly (mine is first gen stuff).
>
> The more I see the more I want to follow the 'KISS' (keep it simple stupid)
> philosophy - there's just too many places things can leak so at least for
> the moment, the air system is getting reduced to a couple of lines with a
> couple of valves. Period.
>
> Looking good btw - finger too. ;)
>
> Gord
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :) Use the forum - it's easy!
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=1
> _______________________________________________
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #126999 is a reply to message #126987] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 18:56 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Ok, so I went back and shot a bit more video. I can read a basic
schematic (resisters, capacitors, inductors, transistors, batteries,
and integrated circuits), but that has always been in an
electronics/radio context, not automotive electrical. Here there be
monsters. I looked through my pile of paperwork and the only schematic
I found was for the Onan that I don't have.
Need schematic, apparently.
Hopefully the video shows what's what in the battery compartment. I've
heard about "house" batteries, but I don't see a lot of 12 volt stuff
in here, nor an inverter. Is it normal for the only source of AC to be
the Onan or shore power? Ooh! Maybe that mystery box is an inverter,
and not a water heater (might explain the lack of plumbing).
Under my port side bunk is flexible vent hose for the furnace (I think
it's under the range and microwave). There is also a red and a blue
gas valve. I do not know the difference. And as predicted, there were
two small compressors. I have no way to tell if they are dead or not
but I suspect it's a controls or plumbing issue that took them out of
the loop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UtBpRC6REA
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
1978 GMC Royale motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #127007 is a reply to message #126960] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 19:52 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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| Robin Hood wrote on Sun, 22 May 2011 10:36 |
I thoroughly surveyed the entire salvage yard inventory of GM, Ford,
and Mopar vehicles. There was not a single dome-style 8-lug wheel to
be found. Fortunately, one of the salvage yard girls is a roller derby
friend of mine, and she'll keep an eye out for me, and was also able
to tell me about some other truck-specific salvage yards in the area
that are not open on Sundays.
Worst case scenario seems to be that I can put the "wrong" rims on the
front (right???), and there's an abundance of those at the salvage
yards. Between the two barn coach fronts and the spares from the barn
coach and mine, that would technically get her rolling, at least
temporarily and sufficiently unto the purpose of trailing her. I would
prefer some junker wheels so I have to do a minimum of
Three-Wheel-Monte.
|
Robin,
You can use the wheels off of a 3/4 ton, on the front, without issue. The newer Fords use a metric bolt pattern, so those are out. Some years of Chevy use metric lug bolts, so you need to get the 9/16" lug nuts from an older Chevy.
I am currently running Dodge truck 16" X 8" wheels 0n my coach. They are lug centered and even have the conical lug nuts. I have put over 3,000 miles on these since I installed them and have not had any problem with the nuts loosening up, or anything else, for that matter.
Here's a link to my photo album on the Dodge wheels:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5521
I did not pioneer this idea, I decided to use these after seeing (pictures of) them on another coach:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=8352&cat=3731
I may have issues running the drop center spare if I ever have a flat on the front but, I think I'll be able to limp it to a tire store if need be.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #127022 is a reply to message #126999] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 20:40 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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| Robin Hood wrote on Sun, 22 May 2011 18:56 |
Ok, so I went back and shot a bit more video. I can read a basic schematic (resisters, capacitors, inductors, transistors, batteries, and integrated circuits), but that has always been in an electronics/radio context, not automotive electrical. Here there be monsters.
|
Any given circuit on these old motorhomes is not as complicated as radio. But there are a lot of circuits. You just have to take them one at a time.| Quote: |
I looked through my pile of paperwork and the only schematic I found was for the Onan that I don't have.
Need schematic, apparently.
|
Look here for the wiring diagrams: http://www.bdub.net/manuals/X7625/index.html they are .gif files and you can open them in MS Paint, or just about any other picture viewer.| Quote: |
Hopefully the video shows what's what in the battery compartment. I've heard about "house" batteries, but I don't see a lot of 12 volt stuff in here, nor an inverter. Is it normal for the only source of AC to be the Onan or shore power? Ooh! Maybe that mystery box is an inverter, and not a water heater (might explain the lack of plumbing).
|
You're just messing with us, right? If not, you should be at least as afraid to do plumbing stuff as you are of electrical stuff.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good Wheel Hunting, Airbags, Electrical, and Interior... [message #127025 is a reply to message #126999] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 20:54 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Robin Hood wrote on Sun, 22 May 2011 16:56 |
...
Need schematic, apparently.
Hopefully the video shows what's what in the battery compartment. I've
heard about "house" batteries, but I don't see a lot of 12 volt stuff
in here, nor an inverter. Is it normal for the only source of AC to be
the Onan or shore power? Ooh! Maybe that mystery box is an inverter,
and not a water heater ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UtBpRC6REA
|
You'll need a 1978 TRANSMODE with EL2 wiring diagram plus the Coachman diagrams.
I thought BDub had the GM wiring diagrams on this site... can't seem to find the link... did see the manuals.
ANYWAY... they are available on CD/DVD and on paper... even enlarged. Look here: <http://www.bdub.net/GMCLinks.html> Go to manuals. look for the link to "GMC FACTORY MANUALS" and "Coachmen Wiring - Plumbing Diagrams (1977 Rear Bath)"
When you have them in hand (I have them loaded on a netbook to take to the coaches) look at the items and flow wires. When you ID a wire, item or connection LABEL it. (Brother makes a nice little labeller.)
The system isn't that hard, it just has a few little twists that confuse auto mechanics. (Many seem to "know it all" already!) Quite a few RV techs have problems with GMC's also.
OBTW from looking at the video, I see several items that LOOK to be wired incorrectly. In several places the chassis and house systems are wired directly together. It also looks like you have to many wires up there!
Water heater. Coachman used propane (only) water heater that is mounted to the skin of the coach. Yours is on the driver's side just ahead of the refrigerator vent. The item you were calling a water heater is the "Buzz Box." The 12v house fuse box mounted over it is a pretty good indication.  Marketed as a "Traid Power converter," they make a fairly good power supply but are very hard on batteries. (Do a forum search on Buzz box.)
I am working on a list of part descriptions and basic functions to go with the schematics. I might have something posted to night or tomorrow.
You'll need to do something... your wiring looks to be the most confused I have ever seen!
Yes, It is normal for these coaches to NOT have an Inverter. (Not a very mature technology in the 70's... or just very expensive!) Many have added them.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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