Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » What is the net weight... (Oooh my brain hurts...)
| What is the net weight... [message #124710] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 15:01  |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Hi all,
I spent a bit of time at the license bureau here in Quebec today to do the official transfer of 'Scruffy'. It's always a fun thing to do - they like to dot i's and cross t's.
Everything is going along just wonderfully until: "What is the net weight of your vehicle please?"
Read the Delaware title - it says GVWR 10,000 pounds, so I say 10k pounds. Nope. "well, do you mean all loaded up? That'll be about 12k" "Nope - we need the -net- weight of the vehicle. Call GM, they will tell you by your serial number - byeeee (next!)." 
So I do and GM Canada and US don't keep records prior to 77 (even baffled them with the none 17 digit s/n).
The question:
Does anyone have a clue as to what I *really* need and where I might find it in a formal enough form to be accepted?
I looked it up as even I was getting baffled (don't forget I'm working this in English and French at the same time) 
"In the case of a can of peas, Net is the weight of the peas themselves...Gross is the weight of the peas, the fluid and the can itself. Gross is always the weight including packing...Net is the actual weight of the article itself."
With that definition, I'd have to say the Delaware title is correct although it should be *net* not gross @ 10k. Then again if I consider the contents of the GM the net, maybe 2k or so is the value... Arrggggh! 
Ah, these government folks could screw up a rock fight.
Thanks all,
Gord
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| Re: What is the net weight... [message #124711 is a reply to message #124710] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 15:24  |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
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Gord
Reply to me off net and i will try to help btdt when I registered mine
John jhbmjk at gmail dot com
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124714 is a reply to message #124710] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 15:42 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
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On 5/5/2011 1:01 PM, Gord H wrote:
> "What
> is the net weight of your vehicle please?"
Net weight is the weight of the vehicle including full fuel,
full engine oil and coolants, and any other fluid(s)
required for operation. "Operation" is different from "use".
>
> Read the Delaware title - it says GVWR 10,000 pounds,
GVWR is just that - Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. That's the
maximum weight of the fully loaded vehicle.
> Nope. "well, do you mean all loaded up?
Nope. That's Gross Weight.
> Does anyone have a clue as to what I *really* need and
> where I might find it in a formal enough form to be
> accepted?
I can't imagine any government agency not accepting a
certified weight certificate from a CAT scale or other
commercial scale that issues certified weight certificates.
Step 1. Go to scale with reasonably full fuel tanks. Nothing
else - no domestic water, LPG, black/gray water, food,
beverages, cargo of any kind, tools, blankets, clothing,
etc. Empty.
Step 2. Walk inside and ask for a weighing, get weighed, get
certificate of weight.
Step 3. Go back to government agency with certificate. Get
title/registration.
Step 4. Re-load it as it was before emptying for weighing.
>
> "In the case of a can of peas, Net is the weight of the
> peas themselves...Gross is the weight of the peas, the
> fluid and the can itself. Gross is always the weight
> including packing...Net is the actual weight of the
> article itself."
You ain't dealing with a can of peas. There is/are specific
definitions of Gross and Net weights as applied to vehicles.
Itty-bitty print might contain details that differ from
jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but it's going to be something
like this: (N.B. the sentence starting with "As to a vehicle
for which. . .")
""Net weight" of a vehicle means the actual weight of the
vehicle, as determined on a standard scale, including all
equipment and accessories ordinarily attached to and used on
the vehicle and, in the case of a motor vehicle, the maximum
fuel, oil, and water possible of being carried for its
operation; provided that "net weight" of a new standard
equipped vehicle, other than a motor vehicle, means the
shipping weight thereof as established by its manufacturer,
and "net weight" of a new standard equipped passenger
vehicle means the shipping weight thereof as established by
its manufacturer, plus one hundred pounds. . . .. As to a
vehicle for which the manufacturer's weight is not available
or whose make and model cannot be determined with reasonable
certainty or which has been so altered as to increase or
diminish the weight thereof, "net weight" means the actual
weight of such vehicle, as determined on a standard scale,
including all equipment and accessories ordinarily attached
to and used on the vehicle and, in the case of a motor
vehicle, the maximum fuel, oil, and water possible of being
carried for its operation."
>
>
The following are the current RVIA definitions and accepted
by NHTSA (CSA may differ slightly) and what is currently
required on tags and labels from the manufacturer:
"GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is the maximum
permissible weight of the fully loaded motorhome. It is the
absolute total allowable weight on the wheels and
chassis. This is the limit of the specified axles and
chassis components as engineered by the chassis
manufacturer. It represents the manufacturer’s maximum
loaded weight that the motorhome is designed to carry.
UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) is the weight of the
motorhome as manufactured at the factory with full fuel,
engine oil and coolants. The UVW does not include
cargo, fresh water, propane, occupants or dealer installed
accessories. If applicable, it also includes full generator
fluids, including generator engine fuel, engine oil, and
coolants. The UVW of the motorhome is noted on the
motorhome weight placard.
GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) is the total
combined maximum weight specified by the motorhome
manufacturer as the maximum allowable loaded weight of
the motorhome with any towed trailer or other towed load.
It means that the engine horsepower, the transmission
and differential have been designed to handle this much
weight. Towing and braking capacities may be different.
Refer to the chassis manufacturer’s manuals for complete
information.
OCCC (Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity) is the
maximum weight of all people in the vehicle and personal
belongings: food, water, tools, dealer installed
accessories, etc. that can be carried by your motorhome.
OCCC is equal to GVWR minus each of the following:
UVW, full propane gas weight.
GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) means the
maximum permissible loaded weight a specific axle is
designed to carry. Each axle has its own GAWR."
> Ah, these government folks could screw up a rock fight.
No, they are dealing with specific legal definitions, and
neither peas nor rock fights. Doesn't matter what you think
the title should say. Just give them what they're asking
for. They're from the government, and they only want to help
you.
Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, Ca
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| Re: What is the net weight... [message #124718 is a reply to message #124712] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 16:28 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
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I am going to see if I can help Gord out as I have been thru this here in Quebec with mine and yes the will take a certified scale weight but his coach is not mobile. I will contact Gord offline
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124721 is a reply to message #124714] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 16:44 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Hi John,
Thanks and email sent.
Thanks Bruce - while I await some specific detail from John, I suspect you have it there - now, do you perhaps have a nice copy of said Transmode page you could send over to me? I don't know if it'll wash but I could certainly try.
Thank you very much for the specific definitions Toby. In regards to your point number one, this is pretty much impossible. The vehicle has been trailered here at substantial expense and is already stripped of its interior with further modifications already underway.
The jurisdiction in this case is the province of Quebec (La Société de l'assurance automobile du Québec) as vehicles exported from the US and immediately imported in to Canada which are over 15 years of age based on their date of manufacture, are exempt from federal inspections and requirements in accordance with the Registrar of Imported Vehicles for Canada.
It's a delicate balancing act when dealing with US Federal, Canadian Federal and Quebec Provincial governments - all who have their own rules. Add to this General Motors Corporation in both USA and Canada, who must put a TZE... number in a "comments" field because it isn't 17 characters.
I'd rather avoid getting too indepth as to my tongue in cheek regarding how the SAAQ operates other than to ask, does the DMV in California have a notice on the door stating "if you're rude / impolite you will be 'expelled'"? It's always puzzled me why such a sign had to be placed in the SAAQ outlets... i.e. which came first: the chicken or the egg?
Thanks again Toby, Gents,
Gord
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124754 is a reply to message #124748] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 21:02 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Hi Rob,
It's crossed my mind but I just don't see that I would win (financially) and I'd run out of time. I believe I have a time limit to get things processed (this seems to truly depend on who I talk to and how much I smile) and in order to get it even towed to a weigh station would probably be about C$500. - to drive it there would mean an exhaust system, brakes, 16.5 tires (not happening), all those safety-like things... (thousands). 
Bummer out of all this is it's just to put it 'legally' in my name. It's going in to what they call "storage" for however long it takes me to play, once done, it has to go for the thorough safety inspection at which time they'll no doubt pick at it right down to the dash bulbs...then again, you catch them on the right day and you can show up missing a wheel and you'll pass.
John's plan along with Bruce's pointer might just "get 'er done" with fingers crossed (and another big smile) tomorrow, latest early next week. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted and confirm things are not just too lost in translation - which is certainly not uncommon in "La Belle Province".
Thanks for the thought Rob,
Gord
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124757 is a reply to message #124754] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 21:26 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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I apologize for not reading the whole thread, but I registered my coach with just a bill of sale (that I wrote) through the services of GetNewTitle.com.
A cop must verify the VIN. You will receive registration and a license plate from the State of Maine. I don't know why they would care if you were in Canada. This would make you legal for a year, kind of.
Larry Davick
JWID
On May 5, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Rob,
> It's crossed my mind but I just don't see that I would win (financially) and I'd run out of time. I believe I have a time limit to get things processed (this seems to truly depend on who I talk to and how much I smile) :lol: and in order to get it even towed to a weigh station would probably be about C$500. - to drive it there would mean an exhaust system, brakes, 16.5 tires (not happening), all those safety-like things... (thousands). :(
>
> Bummer out of all this is it's just to put it 'legally' in my name. It's going in to what they call "storage" for however long it takes me to play, once done, it has to go for the thorough safety inspection at which time they'll no doubt pick at it right down to the dash bulbs...then again, you catch them on the right day and you can show up missing a wheel and you'll pass.
>
> John's plan along with Bruce's pointer might just "get 'er done" ;) with fingers crossed (and another big smile) tomorrow, latest early next week. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted and confirm things are not just too lost in translation - which is certainly not uncommon in "La Belle Province". :lol:
>
> Thanks for the thought Rob,
>
> Gord ;)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :)
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124763 is a reply to message #124754] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 21:44 |
storm'n
Messages: 492
Registered: April 2007
Location: Ont. Can
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Hi Gord.
In Ontario we can get an unplated ownership for a vehicle. No safety, no emissions check, no license plates, no insurance, just legal ownership with a bill of sale. Maybe Quebec has something similar.
Regards, Norm.
Hi Rob,
It's crossed my mind but I just don't see that I would win (financially) and I'd run out of time. I believe I have a time limit to get things processed (this seems to truly depend on who I talk to and how much I smile) :lol: and in order to get it even towed to a weigh station would probably be about C$500. - to drive it there would mean an exhaust system, brakes, 16.5 tires (not happening), all those safety-like things... (thousands). :(
Bummer out of all this is it's just to put it 'legally' in my name. It's going in to what they call "storage" for however long it takes me to play, once done, it has to go for the thorough safety inspection at which time they'll no doubt pick at it right down to the dash bulbs...then again, you catch them on the right day and you can show up missing a wheel and you'll pass.
John's plan along with Bruce's pointer might just "get 'er done" ;) with fingers crossed (and another big smile) tomorrow, latest early next week. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted and confirm things are not just too lost in translation - which is certainly not uncommon in "La Belle Province". :lol:
Thanks for the thought Rob,
Gord ;)
--
Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :)
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124765 is a reply to message #124757] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 22:02 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Hi Larry,
Sadly there's no real going back now - the first step is a big one and somewhat a 'leap of faith': all the proper docs go to US customs border service with a set time frame prior, they're checked, probably double-checked, then you have to show up at the border crossing that has the docs - as the owner, with the vehicle. If all's good, you pass go and *bang*. The stamp goes down on the title stating 'Exported from the USA to Canada' and date and time. 100 yards up the road it's in to Canada customs for the next step. If you don't make the second, the vehicle can sit in limbo between the two or I guess with a whole lot of effort, be re-imported in to the US or discarded.
I've brought 3 vehicles across so far - it's really very easy and normally painless...loose weight too as your pocketbook only gets lighter! First time though I've ever been quizzed about vehicle weight and I can only suspect it does have to do with the age of the GM and probably nobody on either side of the fence figured they would last as long as they have, so they didn't keep records back that far.
Hi Norm,
It's very much what I'm doing here although Quebec does seem to require any motor vehicle be 'tagged' if its intent is to ever be a motor vehicle. I guess if I decided to use it for a garden shed I wouldn't care (neighbours might)... This is what surprised me is that at this step I really wasn't expecting more than an invoice for taxes and more taxes, but I think they might be basing their rate for a motorhome on little more than its weight or something bizarre that certainly includes the weight in the calculation. We live and learn!
Gord 
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| Re: [GMCnet] What is the net weight... [message #124777 is a reply to message #124765] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 23:15 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
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Then again, after my year with Maine plates I happily went to the California DMV to register my, uh, 1975 Palm Beach. The young lady, who was younger than the coach, almost sent me to the Highway Patrol for VIN verification when her more seasoned Supervisor, maybe 50, told her it's no big deal. I filled out a Statement of Facts and got my plates.
The story of the Mystery Machine includes the fact that the VIN Plate and glove box sticker are missing. In their place is a placard riveted in the door frame with the VIN from the State of Illinois. Don't ask me why, I don't know. David Greenberg doesn't know either, so, it's a mystery.
Larry Davick
The 1975ish Palm Beach
>
>
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: What is the net weight... [message #124779 is a reply to message #124728] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 23:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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I am assuming that there is more than one license branch in Quebec. If you fail at one simply go to another one and try again. We do that all the time with the local license branch here and also the FAA.
I hope you speak French. I lived and France for a while and do not speak any French. I managed to get by and it amazed me how many people could speak English when they wanted something.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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