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| [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124627] |
Wed, 04 May 2011 22:51  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
Jim B is rebuilding some bogies down at the Coop and I decided to read up on
it a bit.
I checked my 1973 Maintenance Manual in Double Trouble and couldn't find any
wear specs on the pins or how to check the bogie arms for play.
Can anyone point me to the GM specs?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124634 is a reply to message #124627] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 00:08  |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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I found this on Gene's website:
http://gmcmotorhomeinfo.com/rear.html
With a piece of wood, standing on end, support the end of the control arm at the spindle end. Move the spindle end of the arm towards and away from the frame and measure the total movement with a tape measure. GM Service Bulletin #75-TM-4 states 1/8" is maximum.
Regards,
Bill Wevers
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124635 is a reply to message #124634] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 00:55 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Rob,
We will be receiving new shipment of 1 1/4" pins with 2 grease holes,
one on each bearing so it will wear better with the grease coming from
2 locations as the 1 1/2 pins.
They are heat teated and machine ground like the cranks.
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Bill Wevers <merkur1988-sold@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I found this on Gene's website:
> http://gmcmotorhomeinfo.com/rear.html
>
> With a piece of wood, standing on end, support the end of the control arm at the spindle end. Move the spindle end of the arm towards and away from the frame and measure the total movement with a tape measure. GM Service Bulletin #75-TM-4 states 1/8" is maximum.
>
>
> Regards,
> Bill Wevers
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124652 is a reply to message #124649] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 08:42 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| Steven Ferguson wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 08:12 |
There's that can of worms again! To elaborate on this, one GMCer has
accomplished this but will not tell others what parts were required, what
the part numbers are, and what the machine specs are unless the new setup is
named after him and he gets a piece of the action on every unit sold.
Steve Ferguson
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That sorta makes one wanna figure out how to do it and post the info for all to see.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124657 is a reply to message #124652] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 08:52 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| midlf wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 08:42 |
| Steven Ferguson wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 08:12 |
There's that can of worms again! To elaborate on this, one GMCer has
accomplished this but will not tell others what parts were required, what
the part numbers are, and what the machine specs are unless the new setup is
named after him and he gets a piece of the action on every unit sold.
Steve Ferguson
|
That sorta makes one wanna figure out how to do it and post the info for all to see.
|
You might look here for more info on another approach to the bogie rebuild.
http://www.cathy-ron.com/GMC%20Rear%20Hub%20%26%20Suspension.html
Some of the swing arm play can be reduced if you can adjust the top hats of the pins. They usually are stuck -- have been soaking the ones on my coach off and on -- hope they eventually free-up with having to remove the entire assembly.
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124658 is a reply to message #124649] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 08:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
Why bother?
IIRC needle bearings are used to reduce friction; do we really need to
reduce the friction of the bogies?
IMHO if one keeps the bogies greased with a high quality grease such as
Mobil 1 or Valvoline Synpower I reckon the bushings are more than adequate.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven Ferguson
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 9:12 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs
There's that can of worms again! To elaborate on this, one GMCer has
accomplished this but will not tell others what parts were required, what
the part numbers are, and what the machine specs are unless the new setup is
named after him and he gets a piece of the action on every unit sold.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:50 AM, Gord H <tze064v1000890@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1/8" at the spindle end? Zowie - that's *a lot* and must translate to a
> heap of toe in/out and camber at the o.d. of the tire.
>
> Jim, I haven't had one apart (yet) - has anyone pondered needle bearings
> with hardened sleeves on the pins instead?
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :)
> _______________________________________________
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--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124684 is a reply to message #124675] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 10:59 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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I believe that the reason for + or- 1/8" tolerance is due to the fact that
the leading link forged assembly flexes more than that on sharp turns. The
first time I turned my coach around in my circular driveway, I got out to
see how close I was to running over something and looked at the front/rear
bogie and the wheel looked out of plane compared to the rear/rear one. I put
the coach in the shop and jacked the wheels off the ground, deflated the
airbags, and checked the amount of movement on the pins and bushings and
they were found to be in tolerance. Since that time I have made it a point
to observe other coaches in tight turns at rally's and the same effect was
noted. It really looks like something is seriously wrong when viewed like
this. If one considers that the bushings travel a very short distance with
suspension travel, and that the bearing area on a bushing and pin setup is
quite large, it would seem that the setup, particularly on the later coaches
with the larger pins that are drilled so that the grease gets to the back
bushings, is more than adequate. Ball, roller, and needle bearings are more
suited to lighter loading, higher speed applications where the lubricant is
protected from outside contaminants by seals and shields. The bushings are
much more forgiving in a dirty environment like the bogie pins.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Gary Worobec <gtw5@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Especially important on a 1973 is to take the weight off the bogies with a
> jack and then grease them as the pins only have one hole unlike later years
> with two holes and the ability to use bogie greaser tubes.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gary and Joanne Worobec
> 1973 GMC Glacier
> Anza, CA
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Kanomata" <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 7:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs
>
>
> > Gord,
> > I contacted people on different bearings, and was advised that the
> > present on is adequate as long as we kept it lubed.
> >
> >
> > Jim Kanomata
> > Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> > jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> > http://www.appliedgmc.com
> > 1-800-752-7502
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124695 is a reply to message #124684] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 11:50 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 10:59 |
I believe that the reason for + or- 1/8" tolerance is due to the fact that
the leading link forged assembly flexes more than that on sharp turns. The
first time I turned my coach around in my circular driveway, I got out to
see how close I was to running over something and looked at the front/rear
bogie and the wheel looked out of plane compared to the rear/rear one. I put
the coach in the shop and jacked the wheels off the ground, deflated the
airbags, and checked the amount of movement on the pins and bushings and
they were found to be in tolerance. Since that time I have made it a point
to observe other coaches in tight turns at rally's and the same effect was
noted. It really looks like something is seriously wrong when viewed like
this. If one considers that the bushings travel a very short distance with
suspension travel, and that the bearing area on a bushing and pin setup is
quite large, it would seem that the setup, particularly on the later coaches
with the larger pins that are drilled so that the grease gets to the back
bushings, is more than adequate. Ball, roller, and needle bearings are more
suited to lighter loading, higher speed applications where the lubricant is
protected from outside contaminants by seals and shields. The bushings are
much more forgiving in a dirty environment like the bogie pins.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
|
Jim,
It would still seem that a better method for adjusting the end play would benefit or extend pin/bushing life. Or perhaps just regular maintenance so the current top-hats could actually be made to move!
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124697 is a reply to message #124695] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 13:11 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Dennis, all mechanical systems seem to come with an achillies heel, and the
flanged end play bushings on the bogie pin assemblies are an example. When
everything is clean and bright and shiny, those "top hats", as they are
often referred to, willingly move to take up the endplay on the assembly
when the large nut on the end of the pin is correctly torqued and the lock
plate is bent over the nut to prevent movement. It serves the purpose for a
very long time, and therin lies the achillies heel. They become fixed in
position with road salt corrosion and rust and a real bitch to free up when
they get like that. Soaking in Kroil or the penetrant of your choice seems
to help, but when one is in a hurry to complete repairs, frustration often
set in and more severe methods are brought into play like big crude punches
and hammers as well as torches. Kinda a recipe for making more problems than
you had when you started out. I prefer a heat gun and time to allow the
penetrant to do it's thing. The pins and bushings are readily available,
although some of the replacement pins are lathe turned (not exactly round)
instead of being centerless ground on a precision grinder, and are not heat
treated to a rockwell 45-50 range like the original pins. I know that the
assemblies that Jim K. sells are the high precision type, and the selling
price reflects the difference in quality. In my opinion they are worth the
extra $$. After the new bushings are pressed into the suspension link, they
still need to be precision reamed to the proper clearance, around .0005" to
.0015", with .002" being the extreme. There needs to be enough space to
allow grease to find it's way between the bushing and the pin, but not so
much that it allows any movement in the assembly. The early coaches had
smaller diameter pins, and there was a recall to fix that. The later coaches
had larger pins and an improved method to lubricate the inboard bushing.
Both sizes are still available.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Dennis Sexton <dennisfsexton@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 10:59
> > I believe that the reason for + or- 1/8" tolerance is due to the fact
> that
> > the leading link forged assembly flexes more than that on sharp turns.
> The
> > first time I turned my coach around in my circular driveway, I got out to
> > see how close I was to running over something and looked at the
> front/rear
> > bogie and the wheel looked out of plane compared to the rear/rear one. I
> put
> > the coach in the shop and jacked the wheels off the ground, deflated the
> > airbags, and checked the amount of movement on the pins and bushings and
> > they were found to be in tolerance. Since that time I have made it a
> point
> > to observe other coaches in tight turns at rally's and the same effect
> was
> > noted. It really looks like something is seriously wrong when viewed like
> > this. If one considers that the bushings travel a very short distance
> with
> > suspension travel, and that the bearing area on a bushing and pin setup
> is
> > quite large, it would seem that the setup, particularly on the later
> coaches
> > with the larger pins that are drilled so that the grease gets to the back
> > bushings, is more than adequate. Ball, roller, and needle bearings are
> more
> > suited to lighter loading, higher speed applications where the lubricant
> is
> > protected from outside contaminants by seals and shields. The bushings
> are
> > much more forgiving in a dirty environment like the bogie pins.
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, OR
> > 78 GMC Royale 403
>
>
> Jim,
>
> It would still seem that a better method for adjusting the end play would
> benefit or extend pin/bushing life. Or perhaps just regular maintenance so
> the current top-hats could actually be made to move!
>
> Dennis
> --
> Dennis S
> 73 Painted Desert 230
> Germantown, TN
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124699 is a reply to message #124672] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 13:29 |
 |
gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| jimk wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 10:51 |
Gord,
I contacted people on different bearings, and was advised that the present on is adequate as long as we kept it lubed.
|
Hi Jim and thanks.
Curious as one has to figure too, needles are (or should be) constantly rolling about - maybe a little at a time, but still moving. The actual bogie travel is what, 15, 20, 30 degrees? In a 'bushed' design (that will almost without fail, go dry from lack of maintenance), this is bound to cause more prominent wear in only one area?
Sure, I get it - if said owner assures the pins are all lubed up all the time this is a non-issue - just always looking for the ultimate plus not necessarily the most expensive method to achieve the desired results.
Thanks again Jim,
Gord 
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124707 is a reply to message #124665] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 14:04 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gord,
According to a previous message GM says that play of 1/8 is acceptable and
that's good enough for me.
BTW when I checked my bogies at the Coop two years ago three out of four
were way less than that, the passenger front was about that much and I'm not
having any problems with tire wear.
I am fitting Tru Tracs to the front bogies to help keep them pointing
straight ahead.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Gord H
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:27 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs
Hi Rob,
How about closer tolerances (resulting in more true, accurate running of the
wheels), along with 'off the shelf parts', readily available from any
bearing house in the world? Relatively 'dirt cheap' requiring little to no
skill or special tools to swap out after the initial work has been done.
Gord :)
--
Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :)
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs [message #124708 is a reply to message #124627] |
Thu, 05 May 2011 14:20 |
Gerald Wheeler
Messages: 152
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rob Mueller writes:
I am fitting Tru Tracs to the front bogies to help keep them pointing
straight ahead.
Speaking of Tru Tracs, I purchased Dan Gregg's full set and will only use
a half set like Rob Mueller. Anyone want to purchase a half set (used,
but nothing wrong with them) for $100 plus shipping. Note: JimK sells a
new half set for $190. Email me off the net. You will have to buy the
bolts to mount these (total 12).
JR Wheeler NC/OR
> [Original Message]
> From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Date: 5/5/2011 12:04:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs
>
> Gord,
>
> According to a previous message GM says that play of 1/8 is acceptable and
> that's good enough for me.
>
> BTW when I checked my bogies at the Coop two years ago three out of four
> were way less than that, the passenger front was about that much and I'm
not
> having any problems with tire wear.
>
> I am fitting Tru Tracs to the front bogies to help keep them pointing
> straight ahead.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Gord H
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:27 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Bogie Pin Wear Specs
>
> Hi Rob,
> How about closer tolerances (resulting in more true, accurate running of
the
> wheels), along with 'off the shelf parts', readily available from any
> bearing house in the world? Relatively 'dirt cheap' requiring little to no
> skill or special tools to swap out after the initial work has been done.
>
> Gord :)
> --
> Scruffy 74 Canyonlands :)
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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