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Removed my first wheel! [message #123199] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:21 Go to next message
thorndike is currently offline  thorndike   United States
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Registered: January 2011
Location: Conifer, Colorado
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Well, I got over my anxiety and removed my first wheel tonight.

I had to start taking a look at the back brakes before I head down to Bean Station. I have to say, I have jacked up 'regular' cars before, pulled wheels and changed brakes, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit daunted by the GMC.

Since I am leaving on Wed. afternoon for Bean Station, my plan was to check the front rear brake on each side to make sure I had enough braking power to get to BS. So, with the coach about 14 inches from the curb, I slid two 3/16ths inch flat bars under the bogies to keep them from hanging too low. I was able to use my hook and lift the right side. Once that was done I slid two jack stands underneath.

With my long 1/2" socket bar, I was able to break the lug nuts free. Once that was done, the wheel came right off. Just like a regular car! I pulled the dust caps and removed the castellated nut. It was at this point I realized that I had to remove the bearings to remove the drum! YIKES. I guess I should have read the manual a bit closer. So, off the the store to buy wheel bearing grease.

Once back, I pulled the drum and was quite surprised at the condition of the shoes. they were nearly as thick as the new pads. There was a hairline crack across one, but there was no chipping around that crack (no evidence of it getting bigger or coming apart) so I decided to leave it as it is for now as I am planning on upgrading to discs before this summer. I blew off the brake dust and began to put everything back together.

I cleaned off the bearing, it seemed very smooth with no visible damage (AND I didn't have a replacement) so back on it goes and prepared to start packing them with grease. I grabbed the grease gun and noticed the zerk fittings for the bogies. Honestly, I had never seen those before. So, I pop on the grease gun give it a LOT of grease (I am worried about how long it has been since they had seen any new grease) and proceed to pull the grease gun nozzle apart. So, back to the store I go...On the way, I realized that my torque wrench didn't go high enough to tighten things back up, so along with a new grease hose, I had to buy a new torque wrench!

Got back, repacked the bearings (by hand), and began to put everything back together. Tighten up the adjuster a bit, put the drum on, put in the bearings, put the dust caps back, and put the wheel on. I broke out the new torque wrench and tightened everything to the 250 ft-lbs required by the manual. Everything is looking good! Feeling proud of myself I reached over to put the ALCOA hub cover on. Uh-oh. That cap is held on by the lug nuts. I did everything I could think of to try and pop the lip of the cap under the edge of the lug nuts but to no avail. That cap may stay off until I upgrade the braking system.

Well it was getting dark, so I packed everything up so I could get started quickly tomorrow afternoon on the left side. I went inside to grab a late dinner...When I realized that I forgot something. I left the two steel bars under the bogies when I lowered the coach. I am quite sure that my flat bars are now U-shaped and won't be much worth to me tomorrow. Looks like I am not quite finished with the right side....

Bob


Robert Peesel 1976 Royale 26' Side Dry Bath Conifer, Colorado
Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123201 is a reply to message #123199] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bukzin is currently offline  bukzin   United States
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Nice report.


I am thinking it may be useful for those of us who
don't do this all the time, as well as newbies.


Keep them coming.


Thanks


Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123202 is a reply to message #123199] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mike miller   United States
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thorndike wrote on Mon, 25 April 2011 20:21

Well, I got over my anxiety and removed my first wheel tonight. ...

... I pulled the drum and was quite surprised at the condition of the shoes. they were nearly as thick as the new pads. There was a hairline crack across one, but there was no chipping around that crack (no evidence of it getting bigger or coming apart) so I decided to leave it as it is for now as I am planning on upgrading to discs before this summer. I blew off the brake dust and began to put everything back together.
...

... Looks like I am not quite finished with the right side...


Have you found the source of the grinding noise?

Are you sure it came from the right side?


Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo' http://m000035.blogspot.com
Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123207 is a reply to message #123199] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
WD0AFQ is currently offline  WD0AFQ   United States
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If those are Alcoa wheels you certainly put enough muscle on them. I do mine 160. I think the steel wheels do 250 or so.
Glad you got that taken care of. Let us know how it goes tomorrow.
Dan


3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm 355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng. Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
Re: [GMCnet] Removed my first wheel! [message #123208 is a reply to message #123199] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tmaki is currently offline  tmaki   United States
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On 4/25/2011 8:21 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
>
>
> I broke out the new
> torque wrench and tightened everything to the 250 ft-lbs
> required by the manual.
> Feeling proud of myself I reached over to put the ALCOA
> hub cover on.


Hmmm... ALCOA, 250 ft-lbs? If you have Alcoa wheels and put
250 ft-lbs. on the nuts, you used up about 880 ft-lbs. of
torque out of your new wrench.

Alcoas (at least the Classics) require only 140 ft-lbs.

Not only that, but there are at least a couple of other ways
that are a lot more fun to risk busting the veins in your
neck. And one of them will surely affirm your status as a
manly man. Putting 110 ft-lbs. too much torque on eight nuts
just makes you sore in the morning.

But... if you have steel wheels, you did what the manual
said to do.



Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA

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Re: [GMCnet] Removed my first wheel! [message #123212 is a reply to message #123199] Mon, 25 April 2011 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Robert,

What exactly did you tighten to 250 ft lbs?

From memory (and mine ain't that good) the Alcoa wheel nuts require 140 ft
lb.

That may be incorrect, however, IIRC the torque is written on the nuts.

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Peesel
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 10:21 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Removed my first wheel!



Well, I got over my anxiety and removed my first wheel tonight.

I had to start taking a look at the back brakes before I head down to Bean
Station. I have to say, I have jacked up 'regular' cars before, pulled
wheels and changed brakes, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit
daunted by the GMC.

Since I am leaving on Wed. afternoon for Bean Station, my plan was to check
the front rear brake on each side to make sure I had enough braking power to
get to BS. So, with the coach about 14 inches from the curb, I slid two
3/16ths inch flat bars under the bogies to keep them from hanging too low.
I was able to use my hook and lift the right side. Once that was done I slid
two jack stands underneath.

With my long 1/2" socket bar, I was able to break the lug nuts free. Once
that was done, the wheel came right off. Just like a regular car! I pulled
the dust caps and removed the castellated nut. It was at this point I
realized that I had to remove the bearings to remove the drum! YIKES. I
guess I should have read the manual a bit closer. So, off the the store to
buy wheel bearing grease.

Once back, I pulled the drum and was quite surprised at the condition of the
shoes. they were nearly as thick as the new pads. There was a hairline
crack across one, but there was no chipping around that crack (no evidence
of it getting bigger or coming apart) so I decided to leave it as it is for
now as I am planning on upgrading to discs before this summer. I blew off
the brake dust and began to put everything back together.

I cleaned off the bearing, it seemed very smooth with no visible damage (AND
I didn't have a replacement) so back on it goes and prepared to start
packing them with grease. I grabbed the grease gun and noticed the zerk
fittings for the bogies. Honestly, I had never seen those before. So, I
pop on the grease gun give it a LOT of grease (I am worried about how long
it has been since they had seen any new grease) and proceed to pull the
grease gun nozzle apart. So, back to the store I go...On the way, I
realized that my torque wrench didn't go high enough to tighten things back
up, so along with a new grease hose, I had to buy a new torque wrench!

Got back, repacked the bearings (by hand), and began to put everything back
together. Tighten up the adjuster a bit, put the drum on, put in the
bearings, put the dust caps back, and put the wheel on. I broke out the new
torque wrench and tightened everything to the 250 ft-lbs required by the
manual. Everything is looking good! Feeling proud of myself I reached over
to put the ALCOA hub cover on. Uh-oh. That cap is held on by the lug nuts.
I did everything I could think of to try and pop the lip of the cap under
the edge of the lug nuts but to no avail. That cap may stay off until I
upgrade the braking system.

Well it was getting dark, so I packed everything up so I could get started
quickly tomorrow afternoon on the left side. I went inside to grab a late
dinner...When I realized that I forgot something. I left the two steel bars
under the bogies when I lowered the coach. I am quite sure that my flat
bars are now U-shaped and won't be much worth to me tomorrow. Looks like I
am not quite finished with the right side....

Bob
--
Robert Peesel

1976 Royale 26'

Side Dry Bath

Sterling, Va
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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Removed my first wheel! [message #123216 is a reply to message #123212] Mon, 25 April 2011 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry is currently offline  Harry   Canada
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I have an old piece of a 3" wide leaf spring to use in place of flat bar.
It won't bend.
Re: [GMCnet] Removed my first wheel! [message #123221 is a reply to message #123207] Tue, 26 April 2011 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KRDietz is currently offline  KRDietz   United States
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On 4/25/2011 8:46 PM, Dan Gregg wrote:
>
>
> If those are Alcoa wheels you certainly put enough muscle on them. I
> do mine 160. I think the steel wheels do 250 or so. Glad you got that
> taken care of. Let us know how it goes tomorrow. Dan

FWIW, I torque my steel wheel to 160#. Haven't found a single nut to be
loose in 9 years now. I do use a little anti-seize on the bolts, so
might be getting a little more than 160 out of it.

Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR
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Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123224 is a reply to message #123199] Tue, 26 April 2011 03:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Alcoa and Eagle aluminum wheels tighten to 140 ft-pounds.
OEM steel wheels tighten to 250 ft-pounds due to the added friction of the extended flat area on their nuts.

If you have aluminum wheels I hope you did not stretch the studs too far. Also if you have aluminum wheels and tightened them too far, I would go buy a few spare lugs bolts to carry with me just in case a couple break while driving.

Obviously you should loosen them and re-tighten them to the correct number. Visually check them on your trip to make sure they are still all there.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123249 is a reply to message #123199] Tue, 26 April 2011 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
g.winger is currently offline  g.winger   United States
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Bob, in case you already know,,,disregard. When jacking the rear remember to support the weight and BEFORE lifting the tire off the ground, drain the air out of the bag to prevent distroying the shocks!,,,,,GL,,,,PL
Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123252 is a reply to message #123199] Tue, 26 April 2011 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
thorndike is currently offline  thorndike   United States
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After reading some of the responses last night, I lay in bed hoping that I didn't do any damage to either the lugs or the aluminum wheel. I never thought I would have to worry about 'overstressing my nuts.'

First thing to do when I get home will be to fix this.

Bob

I try and follow the manual and look what it gets me!


Robert Peesel 1976 Royale 26' Side Dry Bath Conifer, Colorado
Re: Removed my first wheel! [message #123254 is a reply to message #123199] Tue, 26 April 2011 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hardie Johnson is currently offline  Hardie Johnson   United States
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Great report. The best way to do tapered roller bearings is hand packing, but with 4 wheels maybe that is too tedious. I use a bearing packer, as seen in my photos of the front bearing rebuild.
You did not go into detail on how you adjusted the castle nuts. Those should not be preload torqued. Check the manual for the exact technique, but it is something like, "hand tighten nut while rotating wheel until it is snug, then back off one flat to align nut slot with cotter pin."
We have had discussions over the years about lug nut torque and many of us believe the 250 ft-lbs is way excessive, especially since you should use anti-seize on these. Some dark night by the roadside, changing a flat you may remember this. Wink
I torque to the normal (wet) spec for the bolt size, about 120 ft-lbs, and check for changes after a few miles and again every 50 miles until it stabilizes. This is how we did the racers long ago. Then a small label near one wheel with the correct value reminds you what it should be.
Others will say the 250 ft-lb is holy writ, so you decide.
"YMMV"


Hardie Johnson "Crashj"
1973 26 foot Glacier, White Thing
Raleigh NC
Re: [GMCnet] Removed my first wheel! [message #123256 is a reply to message #123252] Tue, 26 April 2011 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tmaki is currently offline  tmaki   United States
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On 4/26/2011 6:14 AM, Robert Peesel wrote:
>
>
> I never thought I would have to
> worry about 'overstressing my nuts.'


So to speak...

>
> First thing to do when I get home will be to fix this.

You can take some small comfort in knowing that you only
have to deal with eight instead of 48. Torquing 48 nuts to
250 ft-lbs. is a justifiable reason to change to any kind of
wheel that doesn't require you to do that.

>
> I try and follow the manual and look what it gets me!


All bets are off when dealing with a vehicle this old
without a detailed, written, verifiable history. There might
be some value in studying what you have, consult the
documentation you have, see if it matches. If not, get the
documentation that matches what you have or change what you
have to match your documentation.

Some of this falls into the category of "Gee, I didn't know
I even had to ask that question."

But don't let it dampen your enthusiasm. It's part of the
adventure.



Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, Ca

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support and shocks [message #123398 is a reply to message #123249] Tue, 26 April 2011 22:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bukzin is currently offline  bukzin   United States
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g.winger wrote on Tue, 26 April 2011 06:07

Bob, in case you already know,,,disregard. When jacking the rear remember to support the weight and BEFORE lifting the tire off the ground, drain the air out of the bag to prevent distroying the shocks!,,,,,GL,,,,PL



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


'support the weight before lifting' ? Not sure what that means.
Could you provide details; maybe photos?

Also, never heard of damaging the shocks while lifting the coach.
Detail here too?


Thanks alot!


Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach

[Updated on: Tue, 26 April 2011 22:03]

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Re: support and shocks [message #123427 is a reply to message #123398] Wed, 27 April 2011 00:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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bukzin wrote on Tue, 26 April 2011 22:03

g.winger wrote on Tue, 26 April 2011 06:07

Bob, in case you already know,,,disregard. When jacking the rear remember to support the weight and BEFORE lifting the tire off the ground, drain the air out of the bag to prevent distroying the shocks!,,,,,GL,,,,PL



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


'support the weight before lifting' ? Not sure what that means.
Could you provide details; maybe photos?

Also, never heard of damaging the shocks while lifting the coach.
Detail here too?


Thanks alot!



I'll admit to destroying two Bilstein shocks by doing just that.

DO NOT JACK UP THE REAR OF THE COACH WITH AIR PRESSURE ON THE BAG for that side. I now stick the jack under the pair of rear wheels in question and raise the coach about 1". I then let ALL of the air out of the bag for that side. I usually disconnect the air line to the bag as it is right there and only takes a minute. You can also just do it with the switches / knobs inside. Then I finish jacking the coach to the height you want it.

When finished (with the air line reconnected) I drop the jack down to the approximate final level minus 1". I turn on the air system and let it raise the coach back to it's normal level off of the jack.

I have not heard of KYB's failing but that still is a lot of pressure on the shock if you do not remove the air from the bag before raising the coach.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: support and shocks [message #123448 is a reply to message #123398] Wed, 27 April 2011 06:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mike miller   United States
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bukzin wrote on Tue, 26 April 2011 20:03

... Also, never heard of damaging the shocks while lifting the coach.


Ken gave a good advice, but I would like to add:

The shock provide the suspension "stop" as the wheels are lifted from the ground. This is compressing the shock, not expanding like 'normal' shocks, and most shocks are not designed for this. You not only have the weight of the suspension, tire and wheel, you have the pressure applied by the airbag.

Yes I have blown a shock. Bilstein, I have abused KYB's without problems but will try not to push my luck in the future.


Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo' http://m000035.blogspot.com
Re: support and shocks [message #123449 is a reply to message #123448] Wed, 27 April 2011 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbwoodsr is currently offline  cbwoodsr   United States
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But if you use the short section of a leaf spring to keep the arm from full travel down, this wont happen..you also dont have to raise it as high.
(a logical conclusion AFTER raising the one side to change a wheel)


CBWood
77 Kingslay
MWC OK
ONLINE PARTS PROGRAM
www.GMCMHParts.com

Re: support and shocks [message #123504 is a reply to message #123449] Wed, 27 April 2011 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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CBWoodSR wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 06:30

But if you use the short section of a leaf spring to keep the arm from full travel down, this wont happen..you also dont have to raise it as high.
(a logical conclusion AFTER raising the one side to change a wheel)



Not necessarily,

It is not the weight of the tire and arm that caused the problem. It is the pressure applied by the inflated air bag. If you use the piece of leaf spring you are now applying even more pressure (due to lever action) to the bogie mount at the pivot point a few inches from pivot point the bogie. That is a good way to bend the bogie arm or break the bogie mount.

COMPLETELY DEFLATE the air bag prior to jacking the coach past the normal travel point or lifting the wheels off the ground with the leaf spring piece installed.

Side note: I also have the piece of leaf spring but do not bother to use it any more. I just rotated the tires prior to going to the GMCMI rally without ever getting the coach high enough to get the rear tires off of the ground. It turns out with the coach supported in the middle between the bogies and the bag completely deflated there is next to no weight on the the wheels and they can be removed and installed with the tires still touching the ground. You can lift up on the wheel hub if necessary by hand.

One time went out to help a Black Lister with a flat tire on the Indiana Toll Road. I asked before I left if he had a jack and hook. He said yes. I brought a long bar and the correct socket which he did not have. It turned out I should have asked if the jack worked. It didn't.

Not wanting to drive about 40 miles round trip to my coach to get a good jack, I took some short 2x4 cutoffs I happened to have out of the bed of my truck. I had him air up that bag as far as possible then placed the 2x4's under the jacking point of the bogie. We dropped the coach on the 2x4's and completely deflated the bag. We removed and installed the spare at that height.

Try lifting the wheel hub by hand next time you have a wheel off and no air in the bag. It works.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: [GMCnet] support and shocks [message #123505 is a reply to message #123504] Wed, 27 April 2011 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sgltrac is currently offline  sgltrac   United States
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Mines been sitting with blocks under the frame (right side) and blocks under the tires left side for a little more than two months in order to access the wiring. Hope the shock ok. Gonna check this weekend. Had no idea until reading all these posts

Sully
77 Royale basket case
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 11:59:42
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] support and shocks



CBWoodSR wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 06:30
> But if you use the short section of a leaf spring to keep the arm from full travel down, this wont happen..you also dont have to raise it as high.
> (a logical conclusion AFTER raising the one side to change a wheel)



Not necessarily,

It is not the weight of the tire and arm that caused the problem. It is the pressure applied by the inflated air bag. If you use the piece of leaf spring you are now applying even more pressure (due to lever action) to the bogie mount at the pivot point a few inches from pivot point the bogie. That is a good way to bend the bogie arm or break the bogie mount.

COMPLETELY DEFLATE the air bag prior to jacking the coach past the normal travel point or lifting the wheels off the ground with the leaf spring piece installed.

Side note: I also have the piece of leaf spring but do not bother to use it any more. I just rotated the tires prior to going to the GMCMI rally without ever getting the coach high enough to get the rear tires off of the ground. It turns out with the coach supported in the middle between the bogies and the bag completely deflated there is next to no weight on the the wheels and they can be removed and installed with the tires still touching the ground. You can lift up on the wheel hub if necessary by hand.

One time went out to help a Black Lister with a flat tire on the Indiana Toll Road. I asked before I left if he had a jack and hook. He said yes. I brought a long bar and the correct socket which he did not have. It turned out I should have asked if the jack worked. It didn't.

Not wanting to drive about 40 miles round trip to my coach to get a good jack, I took some short 2x4 cutoffs I happened to have out of the bed of my truck. I had him air up that bag as far as possible then placed the 2x4's under the jacking point of the bogie. We dropped the coach on the 2x4's and completely deflated the bag. We removed and installed the spare at that height.

Try lifting the wheel hub by hand next time you have a wheel off and no air in the bag. It works.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Sully 77 Royale basket case. Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list) Seattle, Wa.
Re: [GMCnet] support and shocks [message #123512 is a reply to message #123505] Wed, 27 April 2011 12:40 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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The two Bilsteins I blew actually leaked all of the oil out of them. The shock looked fine but I had oil spots on the floor. Initially I could not find where the oil came from.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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