Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic
| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119860] |
Thu, 24 March 2011 21:17  |
David L Greenberg
Messages: 899
Registered: January 2004
Location: Port St Lucie, FL
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On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 20:48:31 -0500 Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
writes:
>
>
> Larry C wrote on Thu, 24 March 2011 18:30
> > Doesn't Chrysler have a version of that GM engine 8-6-4??? One of
> the techs rented a ram and drove from Illionos to Detroit and still
> had enough gas to drive around when he got there.
> >
> > When he inquired about it, they said it was a new engine that
> shifts cylinders as it needs them....
> >
> > I would assume it would know it had weight behind it as well and
> would shift cylinders accordingly....
>
> Both GM and Ram use cylinder de-actiavtion on a variety of the
> V-8's
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
>
That would be the 5.7L Hemi. I had one in my '05 Magnum R/T and it was
great. Obviously Chrysler has the advantage of improved computer
technology,
that was lacking when GM had their MultiDisplacement enginei
David Lee Greenberg
Port St Lucie, FL skype: david.lee.greenberg
Dedicated to the Preservation of the Classic GMC Motorhome
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119867 is a reply to message #119860] |
Thu, 24 March 2011 22:02  |
Bob de Kruyff
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Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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""That would be the 5.7L Hemi. I had one in my '05 Magnum R/T and it was
great. Obviously Chrysler has the advantage of improved computer
technology,
that was lacking when GM had their MultiDisplacement enginei
""
If your talking about the old Cadillac system, that was almost 20 years ago. The current GM system on it's truck V8's predates the Hemi system.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119901 is a reply to message #119867] |
Fri, 25 March 2011 08:50 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 24 March 2011 21:02 |
""That would be the 5.7L Hemi. I had one in my '05 Magnum R/T and it was
great. Obviously Chrysler has the advantage of improved computer
technology,
that was lacking when GM had their MultiDisplacement enginei
""
If your talking about the old Cadillac system, that was almost 20 years ago. The current GM system on it's truck V8's predates the Hemi system.
|
As several friends politely pointed out, my math is 10 years off. It is now 2011--must have lost 10 years somewhere!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119939 is a reply to message #119860] |
Fri, 25 March 2011 16:28 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
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The report I read was that GM bought the chips at "lowest bidder" and they got what they paid for. They ruined what might have been the best engine they ever built.
I spoke with a former owner of the V8-6-4 in his Cadillac and he absolutely loved it. He had to replace the low bid chip once and only traded it because he had to. Liked the mileage and said there was no noise or hesitation during the cylinder swaps.
I include the NorthStar in the bad design thought as well. The NorthStar is a strong reliable engine but it has problems with oil burning ( GM says its normal but will clean your cylinders to get your normal oil consumption back for a price ) and the problem with the manifold gaskets failing. ( when this happens its is almost worth a new engine, most will junk the car )
Most maintenance on the NorthStar are huge $$$$. GM has not found its shining star yet.
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119942 is a reply to message #119939] |
Fri, 25 March 2011 17:21 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Larry C wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 15:28 |
The report I read was that GM bought the chips at "lowest bidder" and they got what they paid for. They ruined what might have been the best engine they ever built.
I spoke with a former owner of the V8-6-4 in his Cadillac and he absolutely loved it. He had to replace the low bid chip once and only traded it because he had to. Liked the mileage and said there was no noise or hesitation during the cylinder swaps.
I include the NorthStar in the bad design thought as well. The NorthStar is a strong reliable engine but it has problems with oil burning ( GM says its normal but will clean your cylinders to get your normal oil consumption back for a price ) and the problem with the manifold gaskets failing. ( when this happens its is almost worth a new engine, most will junk the car )
Most maintenance on the NorthStar are huge $$$$. GM has not found its shining star yet.
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Although the software wasn't great, I recall that the problem was with the solenoids themselves. I drove a lot of them in the day, and didn't like it at all. Between the AC cycling, the engine cycling between modes and the cruise trying to do its thing, the car always had something going on that slowly wore you down. As far as the N*, it did have its problems that were resolved over time but as you say, any repairs are expensive, including the starter buried under the intake. The 3.6 is a nice engine with over 300 hp and other than a supplier issue with timing chains, has been a good engine. However, the various generations of the small block V8 will probably go down in the history books as the best of all time.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119955 is a reply to message #119942] |
Fri, 25 March 2011 20:16 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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My two cents worth here based on many years of Cadillac Affliction from 48
sedanette with the monster flathead that got 8 mpg, OHV engines from the 49
through the 76 model years. Hands down, the most powerful and durable was
the 390 CU IN with the 345 hp option package. It was a runner, made for the
freeways at "ton up" speeds, didn't burn oil or break anything and in good
state of tune would deliver 20 mpg if you stayed out of the 4 barrels (2 of
them). The 472 / 500 cu in is probably second. Then we have the era of the
dipstick engineering that brought us the 4100 & holy crap everything else
too foul to talk about. There is a reason GM had to be bailed out by you and
me and I don't think the unions should get all the blame. Management at GM
brought us things like the Aztek, and Alero to compete with well built and
solid engineering examples of european and asian autos. Engineers like Zora
Arkus Duntov don't come down the pike every day. Some people don't know that
he designed the ARDUN hemi head conversion for the ford flathead before GM
hired him away from Ford to design the Small block Chev. This was the era
when as a nation we could and did put astronauts on the moon in a decade.
What the heck are we doing now? Enuf said.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Larry C wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 15:28
> > The report I read was that GM bought the chips at "lowest bidder" and
> they got what they paid for. They ruined what might have been the best
> engine they ever built.
> >
> > I spoke with a former owner of the V8-6-4 in his Cadillac and he
> absolutely loved it. He had to replace the low bid chip once and only
> traded it because he had to. Liked the mileage and said there was no noise
> or hesitation during the cylinder swaps.
> >
> > I include the NorthStar in the bad design thought as well. The NorthStar
> is a strong reliable engine but it has problems with oil burning ( GM says
> its normal but will clean your cylinders to get your normal oil consumption
> back for a price ) and the problem with the manifold gaskets failing. ( when
> this happens its is almost worth a new engine, most will junk the car )
> >
> > Most maintenance on the NorthStar are huge $$$$. GM has not found its
> shining star yet.
>
> Although the software wasn't great, I recall that the problem was with the
> solenoids themselves. I drove a lot of them in the day, and didn't like it
> at all. Between the AC cycling, the engine cycling between modes and the
> cruise trying to do its thing, the car always had something going on that
> slowly wore you down. As far as the N*, it did have its problems that were
> resolved over time but as you say, any repairs are expensive, including the
> starter buried under the intake. The 3.6 is a nice engine with over 300 hp
> and other than a supplier issue with timing chains, has been a good engine.
> However, the various generations of the small block V8 will probably go down
> in the history books as the best of all time.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119957 is a reply to message #119955] |
Fri, 25 March 2011 21:11 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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Zora Arkus-Duntov was a heck of a guy and a heck of an engineer, but I'm pretty sure Ed Cole had the biggest part in developing the original Chevy V8. I didn't do a lot of digging, but this link from the Corvette Museum seems to track with my feeble memory:
<http://www.corvettemuseum.com/library-archives/hof/cole.shtml>
I didn't have a lot of involvement with the V8-6-4 back in the day, but was involved with one at the Corporate Service garage as a GM student. If one was carefully taken care of, they actually worked fairly well. But, they were just too far ahead of their time for that to happen with the sophistication of the dealer network at the time. Also, that 6 cylinder mode couldn't be tuned properly for the level of comfort that Cadillac customers expected, and as Bob noted, with 3 steps from the engine, changes in A/C load, and torque converter clutch lockup (which was on and off in those days, and not a capacity controlled or gradual lock and unlock that they use today) there was just too much going on to be comfortable. I don't think it's a complete accident, even with 1,000 time faster computers today, neither GM or Chrysler uses the 6 cylinder mode. Just getting the driveline, exhaust, and body tuning compatible with the two modes of 4 & 8 is a big enough challenge.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119963 is a reply to message #119955] |
Fri, 25 March 2011 22:14 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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James--I don't even know where to start on that one. You are correct about a lot of that, and I agree with the union thing since I have some great stories to tell about that. Yes, the 4100 tin foil engine was a disaster, but it laid the ground work for many modern powertrains across the industry. I did get to meet Zora and although he was quite a character, he never ever would have been good for GM over and above the Corvette program.History has an amazing way of re-writing what really was true at the time. Frankly, I say the same thing about Lutz. He is an egotist that has a very limited focus about the car industry. Those guys make great role models for the media. The downfall of GM was not making mistakes, it was not venturing out and making mistakes. Cars like the Vega, the Corvair, the GMC are what GM on the map. Being risk averse is what hurt GM. Toyota has had some amazing duds that depending on who is the media darling at the time, go largely un-reported. If you read "all Corvettes are red" and the upcoming "100 years of Chevrolet" you will get more of my opinions 
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #119978 is a reply to message #119963] |
Sat, 26 March 2011 00:43 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Bob, I know that history has a way of being altered depending on what a
person wishes to be true or what some PR hack dreams up. Zora's real claim
to fame was the solid lifter camshaft that came to be known as the 30-30,
The valve lash setting was set hot & running to .030" intake and .030"
exhaust. I took many a oildown adjusting SBC valves until I saw a rocker
cover that was cut down to allow adjustments without the oil leaking down
onto the headers. There was also some little clips that snapped onto the
rockers to kinda keep the oil spray under control. I have heard that Zora
did not come on board at Chev until after the small block had been
introduced in the 55 chev. The power pak heads & eventually the 2.02 heads
that led to 1 horsepower per cubic inch were introduced at the time he
worked at Chev. I know that there were a number of very talented engineers
in the Corvette division who worked at the same time as he did, but didn't
get the attention he did. Corvette still has great engine development teams
particularly when it comes to road racing. Ed cole kinda fit the same mold
as John DeLorean and what was that guy's name that went over to Chrysler,
Lee Iacocca? Maverick fits. GTO, 442, Gran Sport stage 4, Trans Am, Camaro,
all drove GM sales through the roof. Kinda makes you wonder how much
horsepower we would have, and how the american car would look today if
history had turned out a little differently in 1973. I am talking
specifically about the "gas crisis" not anything else. If you look back at
the Deusenberg & some of the perceived issues between family members there,
kinda the same parallels can be drawn. Dreamers make reality possible, not
carefull pocket protector types, I guess my heros have always been guys like
Howard Hughes, Bill Lear, the Mercury Astronauts, & many more. Probably the
GMC MH design team were risk takers as well. Might have been neat to be a
fly on the wall at some of those legendary GM Corporate "bored meetings"
where some of those decisions were made.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> James--I don't even know where to start on that one. You are correct about
> a lot of that, and I agree with the union thing since I have some great
> stories to tell about that. Yes, the 4100 tin foil engine was a disaster,
> but it laid the ground work for many modern powertrains across the industry.
> I did get to meet Zora and although he was quite a character, he never ever
> would have been good for GM over and above the Corvette program.History has
> an amazing way of re-writing what really was true at the time. Frankly, I
> say the same thing about Lutz. He is an egotist that has a very limited
> focus about the car industry. Those guys make great role models for the
> media. The downfall of GM was not making mistakes, it was not venturing out
> and making mistakes. Cars like the Vega, the Corvair, the GMC are what GM on
> the map. Being risk averse is what hurt GM. Toyota has had some amazing duds
> that depending on who is the media darling at the time, go largely
> un-reported. If you read
> "all Corvettes are red" and the upcoming "100 years of Chevrolet" you will
> get more of my opinions :)
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] mileage- sort of on topic [message #120054 is a reply to message #120002] |
Sat, 26 March 2011 19:44 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| James Hupy wrote on Sat, 26 March 2011 09:36 |
Sounds like a great idea, particularly the "drinks" part. Am partial to Jack
Daniels on the rocks. There is a slight possibility that I will be at GMCWS
at King City Ca the last of April, first of May. We will see how the
wrapping up of Mary's affairs goes in the next few weeks. Her death did not
have to happen this soon, the Doctors that did the surgery in 2010 to
replace the mitral valve are at fault & I plan to hold their feet to the
campfire for their role in her demise. Got some personal grief issues to
deal with before I let Anger into the equation.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jim--you have an amazing knowledge of cars and the industry! We need to
> talk over a camp fire with a few drinks sometime.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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Jim--I totally understand. Let's see what happens as time gets closer.Actually that time frame may work for me as well!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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