| Re: [GMCnet] oil again [message #119515] |
Mon, 21 March 2011 21:46  |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
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Aha! So the newer engines can tolerate lower ZDDP levels because of the
different materials used. That makes sense. I believe most overhead cam
engines have flat tappets, just as older v-type engines. But there still has to
be a huge number of pre-2000 V-type engines out there that don't know they
should be wiping off cam lobes.
Gary Casey
when all this started it was said that the manufacturers were making cams and
lifters from hardened steel rather than iron. that did the fix for new
production.
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Fred V
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| Re: [GMCnet] oil again [message #119555 is a reply to message #119546] |
Tue, 22 March 2011 08:21  |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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| mcolie wrote on Tue, 22 March 2011 07:32 |
| Gary Casey wrote on Mon, 21 March 2011 22:46 |
Aha! So the newer engines can tolerate lower ZDDP levels because of the different materials used. That makes sense. I believe most overhead cam engines have flat tappets, just as older v-type engines. But there still has to be a huge number of pre-2000 V-type engines out there that don't know they should be wiping off cam lobes.
Gary Casey
when all this started it was said that the manufacturers were making cams and lifters from hardened steel rather than iron. that did the fix for new production.
--
Fred V
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No Gary and Fred, it is not the new materials. It is trading the sliding contact for rolling. The roller follower has a higher contact load on the cam surface. The iron cams can't be hardened enough to make durability benchmarks.
And, Yes, there will be a lot of classic car owners won't be aware that there is an issue until the engine quits because the valves aren't opening anymore.
ZDDP is a lubricant in the class of metal soap. That is to say a metal bearing compound with very low shear strength - it smears and does not break up. Unfortunately, it does oxidize and break up and that lets loose some things that foul automotive catalysts.
Matt
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i did a search but cannot find the source i was quoting from. i think it was the article from a Buick forum that first alerted us about the oil problem. the article stated that in discussions with EPA, Detroit, oil companies and govt. on how to solve the cat. failure problem that the ZDDP was causing it. they agreed to lower the levels of additives and the car makers would use harder materials for cams and followers or tappets.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] oil again [message #119559 is a reply to message #119555] |
Tue, 22 March 2011 08:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| fred v wrote on Tue, 22 March 2011 09:21 |
i did a search but cannot find the source i was quoting from. i think it was the article from a Buick forum that first alerted us about the oil problem. the article stated that in discussions with EPA, Detroit, oil companies and govt. on how to solve the cat. failure problem that the ZDDP was causing it. they agreed to lower the levels of additives and the car makers would use harder materials for cams and followers or tappets.
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Fred,
It has been my experience that the EPA never discusses anything with the manufactures. There were people that had a job of reading the Congressional Record (CR) for any and all "Notices of Proposed Rule Making" (or "Changes"). They would then send us copies for the text as ask about possible effects. Sometimes a team would get assembled to prepare a response. The like I most was about limiting the freon fluid spill from a crashed car. We actually started the response with "The proposed rules require systems and technology that do not currently exist and have not been envisioned in any foreseeable future".
In short, they pass out rules and we jump through the flaming hoops. Reality is just not an issue. When the ZDDP issue first came up, I was an engine guy at Jeep/Truck. There was a internal EPA memo that noted that the reduction of EP anti-wear additive would be detrimental to many older vehicles. The sincere and heartfelt response was - "So?" The simple fact that in the population of working people an average car is 9.5 years old and had over 125k on it is lost on these people.
Matt (too long a lab rat)
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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