Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
| [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119179] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 15:00  |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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My google search returned this link:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110317152809AAiFuLY
It is a question that applies to us in that it might help some of us decide if a cad500 swap is worth pursuing.
I will need to go through my 455 before reinstalling it in my coach. It has a slight knock and may require throwing some major money at it. A 500 swap has been an interesting possibility and probably won't cost me much more than a thorough rebuild of the 455.
Are the returns worth the trouble with regards to a CAD500 swap?
Les Burt
Montreal
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1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119199 is a reply to message #119179] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 19:06  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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here is an old post of mine from last year
_______________________________
I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know there is
some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test results don't
seem to support these conclusions ;>)
*ad-hock*
------------------------------
---
The Cad definitely has more torque than the Olds. Even with a 23', I've
always "known" that I was driving a heavy vehicle "by the seat of my pants".
With the Cad, that feeling is gone -- throttle response is that much
better, even with the same EFI on both engines.
At cruising speed, towing, the difference is not as noticeable. There are
no serious hills between Dillard and here, but a lot of them steep enough to
drop the ElectroMotor II CC set speed by 2-3 mph while towing a 3600-3700#
CRV. John Richardson, with his 26' Avion, not towing had no trouble staying
right with me. kenH
.
.
.
--------------------------------------------------------------
*Dyno tests*
----------------------------------------------------------
I was digging through some old GM test data and thought I would share the
following:
*Olds 455* test data with an uncertain pedigree (Toro or not? Test
conditions?) and it showed a torque at 2800 and below of about *398*. No
data below 2000, but other tests implied a peak torque at 1200 to 1600 rpm.
Peak hp was 234 at 3600.
*Cadillac 500 EFI* - peak torque *395* at 1200 and 1600 rpm. Peak hp 225 at
3600. The engine was knock limited and spark was retarded about 10 degrees
from MBT at most rpms. Both of these are consistent with other big GM
engines built at the time(except for the knock-limited part). Max
torquewas always below 2000 rpm and peak hp was never above 4000.
That's not
counting performance engines like the Chevy 427 or the Chrysler Hemi, of
course.
Olds 350 EFI (Cadillac Seville) - peak torque 290 at 1200, peak power 190 at
4400 and still rising. Not knock limited.
If the Cad 500 were tested on today's fuels would it be knock-limited?
Don't know.
.
.
.
Hopefully this data will be useful to somebody. GaryC
-------------------------------
I love, ( I do it because I can), but it would be hard to make an informed
decision on these engines based upon the reported performance vs the dyno
test data.....
gene
________________________________________
> Are the returns worth the trouble with regards to a CAD500 swap?
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119223 is a reply to message #119203] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 23:35 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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I have a Caderack, an Ornamental version of a Cad.
It's great to see that we have quate a group of these devoted people.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 6:55 PM, <gkosier@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Yes, yes, and yes!!!
>
> Gary Kosier with a Cad500 and loving it!
>
> ---- Les Burt <burtco99@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> My google search returned this link:
>> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110317152809AAiFuLY
>>
>> It is a question that applies to us in that it might help some of us decide if a cad500 swap is worth pursuing.
>>
>> I will need to go through my 455 before reinstalling it in my coach. It has a slight knock and may require throwing some major money at it. Â A 500 swap has been an interesting possibility and probably won't cost me much more than a thorough rebuild of the 455.
>>
>> Are the returns worth the trouble with regards to a CAD500 swap?
>>
>> Les Burt
>> Montreal
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119232 is a reply to message #119199] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 02:03 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Gene,
I agree with you wholeheartedly vis-à-vis the data available regarding
modifications that have been done to the GMC; simply put it is almost 100%
anecdotal. Most of us don't have access to a dyno to gather hard data on an
engine.
Obviously rebuilding a Caddy would be more expensive as you would have to
buy a core engine to rebuild whereas you would have a 455.
The Caddy is 45 cubic inches larger so the old adage "there's no substitute
for cubic inches" applies. The Caddy 500 can be stroked out to 540 cubic
inches following the info in Doc Frohmader's book "The Big Inch Caddy."
If you REALLY want to take it to the 'nth degree you build a twin
turbocharged Caddy 540 like Jim (over the top) K!
Regards,
Rob "demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious" M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:06 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know there is
some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test results don't
seem to support these conclusions ;>)
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119238 is a reply to message #119232] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 06:49 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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and
and
No one does the "stroked" 500 for the GMC
We just want a engine that will not break
why do Mondello and Patterson specialize in on 455 ?
The 500 needs -
new motor mounts,
tranny adaptors,
new headers
special efi
re-wire the whole engine compartment
new alternator
new AC compressor
our vendors do not support the 500
etc
so why would anyone in their right mind do a 500????, for *NO GAIN* in ,
mpg, torque, hp, life time, anything that I can see ----
----BECAUSE THEY CAN----
is the only reason I can see
but then, I just want to drive and drive and drive ;>)
JMHO
gene
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Gene,
>
> I agree with you wholeheartedly vis-à-vis the data available regarding
> modifications that have been done to the GMC; simply put it is almost 100%
> anecdotal. Most of us don't have access to a dyno to gather hard data on an
> engine.
>
> Obviously rebuilding a Caddy would be more expensive as you would have to
> buy a core engine to rebuild whereas you would have a 455.
>
> The Caddy is 45 cubic inches larger so the old adage "there's no substitute
> for cubic inches" applies. The Caddy 500 can be stroked out to 540 cubic
> inches following the info in Doc Frohmader's book "The Big Inch Caddy."
>
> If you REALLY want to take it to the 'nth degree you build a twin
> turbocharged Caddy 540 like Jim (over the top) K!
>
> Regards,
> Rob "demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious" M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:06 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
>
>
> I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know there is
> some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test results
> don't
> seem to support these conclusions ;>)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119240 is a reply to message #119238] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 07:15 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Why would anyone in their right mind", unquote. That is a statement
(along with a few others) that got a certain Canadian kicked off the net. A
single phrase that applies to most GMCers. Easy Gene!
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:49 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> and
> and
>
> No one does the "stroked" 500 for the GMC
> We just want a engine that will not break
>
> why do Mondello and Patterson specialize in on 455 ?
>
> The 500 needs -
> new motor mounts,
> tranny adaptors,
> new headers
> special efi
> re-wire the whole engine compartment
> new alternator
> new AC compressor
> our vendors do not support the 500
> etc
>
> so why would anyone in their right mind do a 500????, for *NO GAIN* in ,
> mpg, torque, hp, life time, anything that I can see ----
>
> ----BECAUSE THEY CAN----
>
> is the only reason I can see
>
> but then, I just want to drive and drive and drive ;>)
>
> JMHO
> gene
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> >wrote:
>
> > Gene,
> >
> > I agree with you wholeheartedly vis-à-vis the data available regarding
> > modifications that have been done to the GMC; simply put it is almost
> 100%
> > anecdotal. Most of us don't have access to a dyno to gather hard data on
> an
> > engine.
> >
> > Obviously rebuilding a Caddy would be more expensive as you would have to
> > buy a core engine to rebuild whereas you would have a 455.
> >
> > The Caddy is 45 cubic inches larger so the old adage "there's no
> substitute
> > for cubic inches" applies. The Caddy 500 can be stroked out to 540 cubic
> > inches following the info in Doc Frohmader's book "The Big Inch Caddy."
> >
> > If you REALLY want to take it to the 'nth degree you build a twin
> > turbocharged Caddy 540 like Jim (over the top) K!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob "demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious" M.
> > USAussie - Downunder
> > AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> > [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
> > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:06 AM
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
> >
> >
> > I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know there
> is
> > some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test results
> > don't
> > seem to support these conclusions ;>)
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119243 is a reply to message #119240] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 07:27 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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nah
I say JMHO (Just My Humble Opinion)
I don't pick on these folks,
DO IT BECAUSE YOU CAN
there is no right and wrong,
would I pick on Larry, and Rob, and KenH ?
Do I pick on Manny for a 4cyl diesel?
do I pick on you for an SOB? (well maybe a little;>)
do I pick on the EBL guys (sure but I love them;>)
besides, who cares what I say?
I do free wifi at McDonald's ;>)
and I am crazy enough to own 2 GMCs
JMHO
gene
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
> "Why would anyone in their right mind", unquote. That is a statement
> (along with a few others) that got a certain Canadian kicked off the net.
> A
> single phrase that applies to most GMCers. Easy Gene!
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:49 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > and
> > and
> >
> > No one does the "stroked" 500 for the GMC
> > We just want a engine that will not break
> >
> > why do Mondello and Patterson specialize in on 455 ?
> >
> > The 500 needs -
> > new motor mounts,
> > tranny adaptors,
> > new headers
> > special efi
> > re-wire the whole engine compartment
> > new alternator
> > new AC compressor
> > our vendors do not support the 500
> > etc
> >
> > so why would anyone in their right mind do a 500????, for *NO GAIN* in ,
> > mpg, torque, hp, life time, anything that I can see ----
> >
> > ----BECAUSE THEY CAN----
> >
> > is the only reason I can see
> >
> > but then, I just want to drive and drive and drive ;>)
> >
> > JMHO
> > gene
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > I agree with you wholeheartedly vis-à-vis the data available regarding
> > > modifications that have been done to the GMC; simply put it is almost
> > 100%
> > > anecdotal. Most of us don't have access to a dyno to gather hard data
> on
> > an
> > > engine.
> > >
> > > Obviously rebuilding a Caddy would be more expensive as you would have
> to
> > > buy a core engine to rebuild whereas you would have a 455.
> > >
> > > The Caddy is 45 cubic inches larger so the old adage "there's no
> > substitute
> > > for cubic inches" applies. The Caddy 500 can be stroked out to 540
> cubic
> > > inches following the info in Doc Frohmader's book "The Big Inch Caddy."
> > >
> > > If you REALLY want to take it to the 'nth degree you build a twin
> > > turbocharged Caddy 540 like Jim (over the top) K!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Rob "demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious" M.
> > > USAussie - Downunder
> > > AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> > > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> > > [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:06 AM
> > > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
> > >
> > >
> > > I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know
> there
> > is
> > > some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test results
> > > don't
> > > seem to support these conclusions ;>)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> > “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> > -------
> > http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> > Alternator Protection Cable
> > http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119246 is a reply to message #119238] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 08:19 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Mr ERFisher wrote on Sat, 19 March 2011 06:49 |
The 500 needs -
new motor mounts,
tranny adaptors,
new headers
special efi
re-wire the whole engine compartment
new alternator
new AC compressor
our vendors do not support the 500
etc
|
Ahhhh....not exactly....
If you get a 70-72 motor, the mount that would come with it will work.
No tranny adaptor needed, it bolts up.
No headers needed, stock 500 eldo's work.
Can use the same EFI, just gotta tweak it a little
Just a couple of wires need to be extended.
Use the same alternator, just need to use the 500 brackets.
Use the same compressor, but with the 500 brackets
One vendor kinda supports it...Jimmy K.
I put the 500 in because it was...in my case the best alternative. Engine in my coach was junk, and I actually happened to have a Caddy 500 sitting on the garage floor...really!!! As conversions go, it is actually a fairly easy one.
Here are the down sides
The Caddy 500 normally runs a lot hotter than the 403/455, something ya just have to get use to. 205-210 running down the road is normal for it.
The front seal leaks. Everyone with the caddy seems to have this problem, not a bad leak just an irritation.
If you are using a Q-Jet, the stock Q-jet is jetted for a 6000 lb car, so some re-jetting is necessary for a 12,000lb MH. To do it right, you really need a FA meter, an O2 sensor, and a hand full of jets, rods and hangers. Then there is something of a learning curve here. Cannot use the Olds carb, because the fuel inlet on the carb interferes with the AC compressor which sits on top of the motor right in front of the carb. If you are going to run the cad 500, IMO it might be best to just go directly to FI of some kind....a different kind of learning curve,
Cadillac 500 parts are not as common as the Olds parts, so could be harder to find and a little more expensive.
Usually have to build a dog house of some kind over the engine. Even with the low eldo intake, the engine is a little taller than the 455.
That's it. It's got lots of reserve torque to get you up to speed on those entrance ramps, and up those mountain passes.
Just what I think....
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119248 is a reply to message #119179] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 08:43 |
 |
gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Les,
Contrary to the majority, I'd be looking really hard at swapping out for almost anything that's a bit more modern - unless of course you're set on keeping a classic, 'classic'.
I watch the Copart auctions for damaged FWD or 4WD power plants, and just about all I see make equal or more torque and hp than a 455 - and you can get parts, and you don't have to worry about oils, and fuel economy (regardless of weight and frontal area) has to be better *by design*, and 4,5,6,7 speed automatics or 5 or 6 speed manuals.
If you grab an entire car or truck that's running but has been smacked, you have everything you need. The 455 and the 3 speed get removed and the new plant set in place. Fab up a few mounts, graft the drive shafts if required, then clean up the wiring. Exhaust and fuel and other ancillaries - that's simple stuff really.
Guess what I'm trying to express is that if I (had a GM)  and chose to swap engines, I'd at least take the time, make the effort to bring the drive train up to 21st century specs.
Bring on the hate mail! 
Gord
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119249 is a reply to message #119240] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 08:42 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
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Let me see, If the right side of your brain controls the left side of your
body, and the left side of your brain controls the right side, are left
handed people the only ones who in their right mind??<Grin>
Jim Hupy, still wondering
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
> "Why would anyone in their right mind", unquote. That is a statement
> (along with a few others) that got a certain Canadian kicked off the net.
> A
> single phrase that applies to most GMCers. Easy Gene!
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:49 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > and
> > and
> >
> > No one does the "stroked" 500 for the GMC
> > We just want a engine that will not break
> >
> > why do Mondello and Patterson specialize in on 455 ?
> >
> > The 500 needs -
> > new motor mounts,
> > tranny adaptors,
> > new headers
> > special efi
> > re-wire the whole engine compartment
> > new alternator
> > new AC compressor
> > our vendors do not support the 500
> > etc
> >
> > so why would anyone in their right mind do a 500????, for *NO GAIN* in ,
> > mpg, torque, hp, life time, anything that I can see ----
> >
> > ----BECAUSE THEY CAN----
> >
> > is the only reason I can see
> >
> > but then, I just want to drive and drive and drive ;>)
> >
> > JMHO
> > gene
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > I agree with you wholeheartedly vis-à-vis the data available regarding
> > > modifications that have been done to the GMC; simply put it is almost
> > 100%
> > > anecdotal. Most of us don't have access to a dyno to gather hard data
> on
> > an
> > > engine.
> > >
> > > Obviously rebuilding a Caddy would be more expensive as you would have
> to
> > > buy a core engine to rebuild whereas you would have a 455.
> > >
> > > The Caddy is 45 cubic inches larger so the old adage "there's no
> > substitute
> > > for cubic inches" applies. The Caddy 500 can be stroked out to 540
> cubic
> > > inches following the info in Doc Frohmader's book "The Big Inch Caddy."
> > >
> > > If you REALLY want to take it to the 'nth degree you build a twin
> > > turbocharged Caddy 540 like Jim (over the top) K!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Rob "demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious" M.
> > > USAussie - Downunder
> > > AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> > > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> > > [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:06 AM
> > > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
> > >
> > >
> > > I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know
> there
> > is
> > > some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test results
> > > don't
> > > seem to support these conclusions ;>)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> > “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> > -------
> > http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> > Alternator Protection Cable
> > http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119250 is a reply to message #119248] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 08:58 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gord
I didn't realize how simple it would be to install a late model drivetrain!
Please keep track of the part numbers you use so any of us can easily and quickly duplicate.
Oh, and make extras of any custom parts.
Dennis
(tongue in cheek)
Who is struggling with the stock 455
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 19, 2011, at 8:43 AM, Gord Hubbell <g.r.hubbell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Les,
>
> Contrary to the majority, I'd be looking really hard at swapping out for almost anything that's a bit more modern - unless of course you're set on keeping a classic, 'classic'.
>
> I watch the Copart auctions for damaged FWD or 4WD power plants, and just about all I see make equal or more torque and hp than a 455 - and you can get parts, and you don't have to worry about oils, and fuel economy (regardless of weight and frontal area) has to be better *by design*, and 4,5,6,7 speed automatics or 5 or 6 speed manuals.
>
> If you grab an entire car or truck that's running but has been smacked, you have everything you need. The 455 and the 3 speed get removed and the new plant set in place. Fab up a few mounts, graft the drive shafts if required, then clean up the wiring. Exhaust and fuel and other ancillaries - that's simple stuff really.
>
> Guess what I'm trying to express is that if I (had a GM) :cry: and chose to swap engines, I'd at least take the time, make the effort to bring the drive train up to 21st century specs.
>
> Bring on the hate mail! :d
>
> Gord
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119251 is a reply to message #119246] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 09:08 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
cool, now that is what we need is real data
and
and
Larry is the go-to-guy for where to find this stuff and the connections on
how to get-er-done. (also powermaster - but that is another topic;>)
and
I think most are buying your source for headers ?
and
who is doing the howell efi for the 500?
and
you can't list JimK---- his won't run ;>)
well, I guess it made the last run ;>)
somewhere there needs to be a good write-up on how to do this
gene
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 6:19 AM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sat, 19 March 2011 06:49
> > The 500 needs -
> > new motor mounts,
> > tranny adaptors,
> > new headers
> > special efi
> > re-wire the whole engine compartment
> > new alternator
> > new AC compressor
> > our vendors do not support the 500
> > etc
>
> Ahhhh....not exactly....
>
> If you get a 70-72 motor, the mount that would come with it will work.
> No tranny adaptor needed, it bolts up.
> No headers needed, stock 500 eldo's work.
> Can use the same EFI, just gotta tweak it a little
> Just a couple of wires need to be extended.
> Use the same alternator, just need to use the 500 brackets.
> Use the same compressor, but with the 500 brackets
> One vendor kinda supports it...Jimmy K.
>
> I put the 500 in because it was...in my case the best alternative. Engine
> in my coach was junk, and I actually happened to have a Caddy 500 sitting on
> the garage floor...really!!! As conversions go, it is actually a fairly
> easy one.
>
> Here are the down sides
> The Caddy 500 normally runs a lot hotter than the 403/455, something ya
> just have to get use to. 205-210 running down the road is normal for it.
>
> The front seal leaks. Everyone with the caddy seems to have this problem,
> not a bad leak just an irritation.
>
> If you are using a Q-Jet, the stock Q-jet is jetted for a 6000 lb car, so
> some re-jetting is necessary for a 12,000lb MH. To do it right, you really
> need a FA meter, an O2 sensor, and a hand full of jets, rods and hangers.
> Then there is something of a learning curve here. Cannot use the Olds
> carb, because the fuel inlet on the carb interferes with the AC compressor
> which sits on top of the motor right in front of the carb. If you are going
> to run the cad 500, IMO it might be best to just go directly to FI of some
> kind....a different kind of learning curve,
>
> Cadillac 500 parts are not as common as the Olds parts, so could be harder
> to find and a little more expensive.
>
> Usually have to build a dog house of some kind over the engine. Even with
> the low eldo intake, the engine is a little taller than the 455.
>
> That's it. It's got lots of reserve torque to get you up to speed on those
> entrance ramps, and up those mountain passes.
>
> Just what I think....
> --
> Larry :)
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119253 is a reply to message #119243] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 09:22 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The multiple GMCs is what does it Gene! Now you have to go out and find 2
right minds:>)
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 5:27 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> nah
>
> I say JMHO (Just My Humble Opinion)
>
> I don't pick on these folks,
>
> DO IT BECAUSE YOU CAN
>
> there is no right and wrong,
> would I pick on Larry, and Rob, and KenH ?
> Do I pick on Manny for a 4cyl diesel?
> do I pick on you for an SOB? (well maybe a little;>)
> do I pick on the EBL guys (sure but I love them;>)
>
> besides, who cares what I say?
> I do free wifi at McDonald's ;>)
> and I am crazy enough to own 2 GMCs
>
>
> JMHO
> gene
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > "Why would anyone in their right mind", unquote. That is a statement
> > (along with a few others) that got a certain Canadian kicked off the net.
> > A
> > single phrase that applies to most GMCers. Easy Gene!
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:49 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > and
> > > and
> > >
> > > No one does the "stroked" 500 for the GMC
> > > We just want a engine that will not break
> > >
> > > why do Mondello and Patterson specialize in on 455 ?
> > >
> > > The 500 needs -
> > > new motor mounts,
> > > tranny adaptors,
> > > new headers
> > > special efi
> > > re-wire the whole engine compartment
> > > new alternator
> > > new AC compressor
> > > our vendors do not support the 500
> > > etc
> > >
> > > so why would anyone in their right mind do a 500????, for *NO GAIN* in
> ,
> > > mpg, torque, hp, life time, anything that I can see ----
> > >
> > > ----BECAUSE THEY CAN----
> > >
> > > is the only reason I can see
> > >
> > > but then, I just want to drive and drive and drive ;>)
> > >
> > > JMHO
> > > gene
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Gene,
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you wholeheartedly vis-à-vis the data available
> regarding
> > > > modifications that have been done to the GMC; simply put it is almost
> > > 100%
> > > > anecdotal. Most of us don't have access to a dyno to gather hard data
> > on
> > > an
> > > > engine.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously rebuilding a Caddy would be more expensive as you would
> have
> > to
> > > > buy a core engine to rebuild whereas you would have a 455.
> > > >
> > > > The Caddy is 45 cubic inches larger so the old adage "there's no
> > > substitute
> > > > for cubic inches" applies. The Caddy 500 can be stroked out to 540
> > cubic
> > > > inches following the info in Doc Frohmader's book "The Big Inch
> Caddy."
> > > >
> > > > If you REALLY want to take it to the 'nth degree you build a twin
> > > > turbocharged Caddy 540 like Jim (over the top) K!
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Rob "demonstrating an acute grasp on the obvious" M.
> > > > USAussie - Downunder
> > > > AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> > > > USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> > > > [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf
> ERFisher
> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:06 AM
> > > > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I always find these ad-hock performance reports troubling ( I know
> > there
> > > is
> > > > some JWID, and I own it , therefor , I love it) but the test
> results
> > > > don't
> > > > seem to support these conclusions ;>)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> > > “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> > > -------
> > > http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> > > Alternator Protection Cable
> > > http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
> > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119254 is a reply to message #119248] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 09:27 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
My thinking is it is still more efficient to swap out the entire front clip
from a 4WD vehicle. Everything you stated Les is a good reason for doing it
this way. Heck, hotrodders do this stuff all the time. My '56 Chevy had
the front clip from a 1970 Monte Carlo installed on it. New motor mounts,
much more modern steering, better everything plus the correct motor mounts.
A couple borjeson (sp) joints and you have the steering you want.
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Gord Hubbell <g.r.hubbell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Les,
>
> Contrary to the majority, I'd be looking really hard at swapping out for
> almost anything that's a bit more modern - unless of course you're set on
> keeping a classic, 'classic'.
>
> I watch the Copart auctions for damaged FWD or 4WD power plants, and just
> about all I see make equal or more torque and hp than a 455 - and you can
> get parts, and you don't have to worry about oils, and fuel economy
> (regardless of weight and frontal area) has to be better *by design*, and
> 4,5,6,7 speed automatics or 5 or 6 speed manuals.
>
> If you grab an entire car or truck that's running but has been smacked, you
> have everything you need. The 455 and the 3 speed get removed and the new
> plant set in place. Fab up a few mounts, graft the drive shafts if required,
> then clean up the wiring. Exhaust and fuel and other ancillaries - that's
> simple stuff really.
>
> Guess what I'm trying to express is that if I (had a GM) :cry: and chose to
> swap engines, I'd at least take the time, make the effort to bring the drive
> train up to 21st century specs.
>
> Bring on the hate mail! :d
>
> Gord
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119256 is a reply to message #119179] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 09:41 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I've recently heard that the Chevy 8.1 (496) burn a lot of oil, they all do it. anyone know if this is true?
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119263 is a reply to message #119223] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 12:17 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| jimk wrote on Fri, 18 March 2011 21:35 |
I have a Caderack, an Ornamental version of a Cad.
It's great to see that we have quate a group of these devoted people.
|
Jim,
There's an operation for that. It'll help you see better! 
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] 455 or CAD 500? [message #119267 is a reply to message #119179] |
Sat, 19 March 2011 13:19 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Has anyone ever attempted to drop in a Buick 455? I think it was the torque monster of the lot, at least in HComp version in 70 it was 510. It's also relatively light and compact. Just wondering. (Of course I'm a Buick nut collecting GSs and TR's)
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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wiring, airbag sensors…I’m sure you get the idea. As I recall, (by example) the wiring harness on a BMW 750iL weighed in (in a box) at about 90 pounds. Required was only about 15.