Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » ALT High Voltage output (More than 18VDC)
| ALT High Voltage output [message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 13:06  |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Guys,
Recently I went to the barn to check on the GMC and wake her up from hibernation. I started it up and while she was warming up all of the sudden the interior lights went really bright. I checked the voltage on the monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. I have experienced this once before on a Chevy Malibu I had and found the the alternator VR was bad. Thinking this was the same situation I removed the alternated and had it tested at Autozone. The test showed the alternator is good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA battery isolator.
I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is removed (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC system? Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
Trying to understand this better it would be helpful to know where the volt meter on the monitor panel reads voltage from? Looking at the wiring diagrams in the manuals I could not find the monitor panel.
I am thinking my alternator could still have a problem but intermittent. What do you guys think?
Jon
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #118996 is a reply to message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 13:11  |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Sure sounds like an intermittant problem with the voltage regulator. I'd tend to it before it fries other electronics on the coach, though I don't know if you can simply replace the voltage regulator or should rebuild the entire alternator.
I've heard that some of the "rebuilt" alternators are not always that much better!
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #119000 is a reply to message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 14:03 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| Jon Payne wrote on Wed, 16 March 2011 11:06 |
... I checked the voltage on the monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. ... The test showed the alternator is good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA battery isolator.
I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is removed (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC system? Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
...
|
The way I understand it....
The stock alternator has a REMOTE sense voltage regulator. This type of regulator checks the voltage at some place other than the output of the alternator and uses that measurement to adjust the output of the alternator to get the required voltage... at the remote point.
On our GMC's (as designed) have the "remote point" on the chassis side of the isolator. This is to compensate for voltage drop across the isolator.
If the path to the remote sense point is broken (i.e. the isolator going bad) the regulator "thinks" the voltage is to low... raising the output of the alternator to very high levels. This high level output will be felt on the other side of any (good) diode... like the house electrical system.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119002 is a reply to message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 14:14 |
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If the diode in the chassis battery side of the isolator
fails "open", it can cause this EXACT condition. The
alternator relies on feedback from the chassis electrical
system to regulate the system voltage (this allows it to
compensate for the .7V drop across the diode in the
isolator, for example). You MOST LIKELY have a bad diode in
the isolator (I have seen this exact condition at least a
dozen times). Check the diodes in the isolator.
On 3/16/2011 11:06 AM, Jon Payne wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> Recently I went to the barn to check on the GMC and wake her up from hibernation. I started it up and while she was warming up all of the sudden the interior lights went really bright. I checked the voltage on the monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. I have experienced this once before on a Chevy Malibu I had and found the the alternator VR was bad. Thinking this was the same situation I removed the alternated and had it tested at Autozone. The test showed the alternator is good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA battery isolator.
>
> I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is removed (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC system? Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
>
> Trying to understand this better it would be helpful to know where the volt meter on the monitor panel reads voltage from? Looking at the wiring diagrams in the manuals I could not find the monitor panel.
>
> I am thinking my alternator could still have a problem but intermittent. What do you guys think?
>
> Jon
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Terry Taylor
'74 ex-Eleganza SE
San Lorenzo, CA
http://www.n6mon.org
http://dldesignstore.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119003 is a reply to message #118997] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 14:17 |
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Emery, If the diode in one the chassis side of the isolator
fails, the alternator will see a lower than normal feedback
voltage from the chassis electrical system and will keep
increasing the its output to try to compensate. I have seen
the output from the alternator go as high as 90 (yes 90,
that is not a typo) volts in this condition.
On 3/16/2011 11:29 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
>
> I agree with your statement "how can the isolator cause high voltage". It can't. The high voltage has to come from the alternator.
> I would think that you have an intermittent problem with the voltage regulator inside the alternator.
> It is time to get the alternator rebuilt or else replace it. Do this right away before it burns up something else in your electrical system. Much cheaper to replace the alternator than to repair a lot of other things later.
>
>
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Terry Taylor
'74 ex-Eleganza SE
San Lorenzo, CA
http://www.n6mon.org
http://dldesignstore.com
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #119004 is a reply to message #119000] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 14:25 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| mike miller wrote on Wed, 16 March 2011 14:03 |
| Jon Payne wrote on Wed, 16 March 2011 11:06 |
... I checked the voltage on the monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. ... The test showed the alternator is good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA battery isolator.
I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is removed (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC system? Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
...
|
The way I understand it....
The stock alternator has a REMOTE sense voltage regulator. This type of regulator checks the voltage at some place other than the output of the alternator and uses that measurement to adjust the output of the alternator to get the required voltage... at the remote point.
On our GMC's (as designed) have the "remote point" on the chassis side of the isolator. This is to compensate for voltage drop across the isolator.
If the path to the remote sense point is broken (i.e. the isolator going bad) the regulator "thinks" the voltage is to low... raising the output of the alternator to very high levels. This high level output will be felt on the other side of any (good) diode... like the house electrical system.
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Mike Miller has got it. Most likely the diode from the center terminal of the isolator to the chassis battery is open. The alt volts can't be seen at the chassis system, it just keeps running on the chassis battery and the voltage is low enough that the alt keeps running up the volts trying to read the charge. Connect the two outside terminals on the isolator with a heavy wire and see if the problem goes away. If that "cures" it the isolator is the problem.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119008 is a reply to message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 14:44 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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DO NOT RUN IT AGAIN UNTIL YOU PUT ON AN APC
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
GENE
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Jon Payne <embrep@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Recently I went to the barn to check on the GMC and wake her up from
> hibernation. I started it up and while she was warming up all of the sudden
> the interior lights went really bright. I checked the voltage on the
> monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. I have
> experienced this once before on a Chevy Malibu I had and found the the
> alternator VR was bad. Thinking this was the same situation I removed the
> alternated and had it tested at Autozone. The test showed the alternator is
> good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA
> battery isolator.
>
> I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is removed
> (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC system?
> Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
>
> Trying to understand this better it would be helpful to know where the volt
> meter on the monitor panel reads voltage from? Looking at the wiring
> diagrams in the manuals I could not find the monitor panel.
>
> I am thinking my alternator could still have a problem but intermittent.
> What do you guys think?
>
> Jon
> --
> Jon Payne
> 76 Palm Beach
> Westfield,IN
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119011 is a reply to message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 15:47 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Put the batteries back in the coach. The charging system seeks balance
between load and available voltage from other sources. It is a condition
known as CEMF or counter electro motive force. When there is a lower voltage
present in the system the alternator will supply that voltage. When there is
a very low or no voltage present, the alternator will go full field to
attempt to equalize the difference. All the battery isolator's job is to
prevent discharging the engine battery while allowing use of the house
battery. Electricity flows through them in the charging direction ALMOST
like a solid conductor. Also install an APC in the charging circuit to
protect your harness. Cheap insurance.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Jon Payne <embrep@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Recently I went to the barn to check on the GMC and wake her up from
> hibernation. I started it up and while she was warming up all of the sudden
> the interior lights went really bright. I checked the voltage on the
> monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. I have
> experienced this once before on a Chevy Malibu I had and found the the
> alternator VR was bad. Thinking this was the same situation I removed the
> alternated and had it tested at Autozone. The test showed the alternator is
> good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA
> battery isolator.
>
> I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is removed
> (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC system?
> Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
>
> Trying to understand this better it would be helpful to know where the volt
> meter on the monitor panel reads voltage from? Looking at the wiring
> diagrams in the manuals I could not find the monitor panel.
>
> I am thinking my alternator could still have a problem but intermittent.
> What do you guys think?
>
> Jon
> --
> Jon Payne
> 76 Palm Beach
> Westfield,IN
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #119012 is a reply to message #118994] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 16:07 |
jtblank
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2007
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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On a similar note what should the voltage output from the alternator actually be? I ran into this same thing when I ran my battery down and ever since my alternator puts out between 13.8 and 14.8 no matter how long the motors been running and whether the lights or fan are on. I have an Equus multifunction monitor that I have confirmed the accuracy with a fluke multimeter. This seems a bit high as it never ran in that range before running the battery dead. Should I be concerned about this range of charge? Reading on the internet it seems anything under 15 is OK but seems high if 12.7v is full charge.
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
Tulare, CA
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #119014 is a reply to message #119012] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 16:18 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| jtblank wrote on Wed, 16 March 2011 16:07 |
On a similar note what should the voltage output from the alternator actually be? I ran into this same thing when I ran my battery down and ever since my alternator puts out between 13.8 and 14.8 no matter how long the motors been running and whether the lights or fan are on. I have an Equus multifunction monitor that I have confirmed the accuracy with a fluke multimeter. This seems a bit high as it never ran in that range before running the battery dead. Should I be concerned about this range of charge? Reading on the internet it seems anything under 15 is OK but seems high if 12.7v is full charge.
|
There is voltage drop across the isolator. The critical voltage is at the Chassis battery. The sensing lead for the alternator is taken from the chassis system. Therefore the voltage measured at the alternator will be an amount higher than the chassis voltage by the amount of the voltage drop. Typically this is around a half volt. You can measure the drop by measuring between the alternator post on the isolator and the chassis battery post on the isolator. Note this chassis sense lead connection will also make up for any voltage drop in the wires between the alternator and the isolator.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119015 is a reply to message #119012] |
Wed, 16 March 2011 16:29 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
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Actually, a lead/acid wet cell battery at 70 degrees F. with a specific
gravity of 1.260 possibly could have a voltage potential of 2.2 volts DC.
2.2 x 6 cells = 13.2 volts DC. In order to overcome CEMF, the potential
voltage from the alternator has to be higher than 13.2 Volts plus a small
amount more to overcome circuit resistance. Hence the charging voltage of
13.8 to 14.5 Volts is in the acceptable range. Might be a little bit high if
it goes to 15 volts. Where you measure potential affects your meter readings
and some meters read differently than others due to stability of their
circuitry, charge state of internal batteries, resistance of their leads,
and the meter impedence tolerance. What that simply says is that some read
high & some low. What your meter reads at the output lug of the alternator,
the isolator, and finally the battery positive terminal should give you a
better idea of what is going on. These GMCs are all over 30 years old, their
wiring harnesses have higer resistance than when they were new, and
modifications like crimp on connectors & added accessories often contribute
to problems. Start by verifying the condition of components, resistance of
conductors, battery connections as well as chassis grounds. Clean and bright
and insure that they are tight, will go a long way towards trouble free
operation.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, John Blankenship <jtblank@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On a similar note what should the voltage output from the alternator
> actually be? I ran into this same thing when I ran my battery down and ever
> since my alternator puts out between 13.8 and 14.8 no matter how long the
> motors been running and whether the lights or fan are on. I have an Equus
> multifunction monitor that I have confirmed the accuracy with a fluke
> multimeter. This seems a bit high as it never ran in that range before
> running the battery dead. Should I be concerned about this range of charge?
> Reading on the internet it seems anything under 15 is OK but seems high if
> 12.7v is full charge.
> --
> John Blankenship
> '76 Palm Beach
> Tulare, CA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119144 is a reply to message #119015] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 00:44 |
Douglas Norton
Messages: 191
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I wish I knew the info in these responses when my voltage went to 18 volts and fried three alternators on a cross country trip three years ago. It turned out that my problem was a bad ground, or several bad grounds and dirty battery terminals. I would have figured this out earlier if I had a good volt meter and used it to check voltages at several locations including those mentioned by others.
I had a similar problem with a 1970 Chevrolet wagon in the late 1970s. The mechanic tried to fix it by turning down the mechanical voltage regulator. It worked great for two hours till I found and fixed a bad ground wire; then it went up to 16 volts and the mechanic reset it for free.
--- On Wed, 3/16/11, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 2:29 PM
Actually, a lead/acid wet cell battery at 70 degrees F. with a specific
gravity of 1.260 possibly could have a voltage potential of 2.2 volts DC.
2.2 x 6 cells = 13.2 volts DC. In order to overcome CEMF, the potential
voltage from the alternator has to be higher than 13.2 Volts plus a small
amount more to overcome circuit resistance. Hence the charging voltage of
13.8 to 14.5 Volts is in the acceptable range. Might be a little bit high if
it goes to 15 volts. Where you measure potential affects your meter readings
and some meters read differently than others due to stability of their
circuitry, charge state of internal batteries, resistance of their leads,
and the meter impedence tolerance. What that simply says is that some read
high & some low. What your meter reads at the output lug of the alternator,
the isolator, and finally the battery positive terminal should give you a
better idea of what is going on. These GMCs are all over 30 years old, their
wiring harnesses have higer resistance than when they were new, and
modifications like crimp on connectors & added accessories often contribute
to problems. Start by verifying the condition of components, resistance of
conductors, battery connections as well as chassis grounds. Clean and bright
and insure that they are tight, will go a long way towards trouble free
operation.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, John Blankenship <jtblank@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On a similar note what should the voltage output from the alternator
> actually be? I ran into this same thing when I ran my battery down and ever
> since my alternator puts out between 13.8 and 14.8 no matter how long the
> motors been running and whether the lights or fan are on. I have an Equus
> multifunction monitor that I have confirmed the accuracy with a fluke
> multimeter. This seems a bit high as it never ran in that range before
> running the battery dead. Should I be concerned about this range of charge?
> Reading on the internet it seems anything under 15 is OK but seems high if
> 12.7v is full charge.
> --
> John Blankenship
> '76 Palm Beach
> Tulare, CA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] ALT High Voltage output [message #119156 is a reply to message #119008] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 08:27 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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If you do not have an APC yet, send me your mailing address, and I will send
you one, today
you can send the check later
or paypal
gene
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> DO NOT RUN IT AGAIN UNTIL YOU PUT ON AN APC
>
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>
> GENE
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Jon Payne <embrep@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> Recently I went to the barn to check on the GMC and wake her up from
>> hibernation. I started it up and while she was warming up all of the sudden
>> the interior lights went really bright. I checked the voltage on the
>> monitor panel and the volt meter was pegged, passed 18VDC. I have
>> experienced this once before on a Chevy Malibu I had and found the the
>> alternator VR was bad. Thinking this was the same situation I removed the
>> alternated and had it tested at Autozone. The test showed the alternator is
>> good. Later I found out that it could be the generator output diodes, AKA
>> battery isolator.
>>
>> I have not checked the isolator yet, but since the house battery is
>> removed (for the winter) how can the isolator cause high voltage on the DC
>> system? Where would the increased voltage be coming from?
>>
>> Trying to understand this better it would be helpful to know where the
>> volt meter on the monitor panel reads voltage from? Looking at the wiring
>> diagrams in the manuals I could not find the monitor panel.
>>
>> I am thinking my alternator could still have a problem but intermittent.
>> What do you guys think?
>>
>> Jon
>> --
>> Jon Payne
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Westfield,IN
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #119186 is a reply to message #118994] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 16:53 |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Guys,
Thanks so much for all your responses! Sorry I have not given any replies to your posts but I have been swapped at work recently. Anyway for those that have asked I do have the APC installed.
Since I have the alternator already off I'm am going perform the checks that are called out in the MM tonight. I do have a VR and diode Trio if need be. But from the responses I have read it sounds like the isolated could still be the culprit and being that the alternator did check okay at Autozone confirms this. Hopefully tomorrow morning I will have a chance to reinstall the alternator.
I'll post again with my results.
Many thanks,
JonT
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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| Re: ALT High Voltage output [message #119195 is a reply to message #118994] |
Fri, 18 March 2011 18:38 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Did you tape off the hot lead on the house batt you removed? you may have blown the isolator when it started and the alt began to output. The fail mode of the isolator may be causing the poor signal problem to the alternator. To answer your charge voltage question, I was always taught that 14.2 V was the ideal goal, however GM regulators are temperature emulating to get the voltage to the battery it needs to fully charge and not sulfonate, but also not boil it out. Due to chemcal reations in the battery higher voltage is required at low temps and less at high temps. The reglator temp varies the OP Volts accordingly, but just a few tenths above and below 14.2. A few tenths gives a big difference in current flow in a 12V nomial (14V running) system.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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