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Brake fluid [message #117224] Wed, 02 March 2011 11:11 Go to next message
Harry is currently offline  Harry   Canada
Messages: 1888
Registered: October 2007
Location: Victoria, BC CANADA
Karma: 3
Senior Member



Brake Fluid
By Bob Paulin

Brake fluid does wear out and become contaminated.
Some people are still rejecting the notion of changing transmission fluid on a regular basis. How are we going to convince them that they should now change brake fluid regularly?

For years, many considered brake fluid to be a brake-job-to-brake-job service item. Do a brake job, and rebuild the wheel cylinders. Then, bleeding the brakes will flush the system - sort of.

Well, brake fluid always was, and continues to be hygroscopic - meaning that it absorbs moisture like a sponge. Leave a container of brake fluid open for a few hot, humid summer days, and it will likely absorb enough moisture to render it un-useable according to DOT specifications.

From a brake engineering point of view, absorbing and dispersing moisture throughout the system is good. It keeps moisture from forming in puddles within the system. Of course, these water puddles would settle into the lowest areas - such as wheel cylinders and calipers - where they can easily be boiled into steam by the heat generated by hard braking conditions and cause a loss of braking known as brake fade.

The downside of brake fluid being so hygroscopic is that the moisture dispersed throughout the system lowers the brake fluid boiling point, increases its viscosity, and promotes rust and corrosion.

• BRAKE FLUID SPECIFICATIONS

The DOT 3 specification requires a minimum boiling point of 401° Fahrenheit for "dry" brake fluid - fluid that contains no moisture whatsoever. To meet DOT 3 specs., "wet" or fully saturated fluid should reach 284° before boiling.

DOT 4 specs calls for minimum boiling points of 446° dry and 311° wet.

Most DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids sold today meet or exceed the above specifications, but it is important to know the numbers.

NAPA DOT 3 brake fluids, for example, actually exceed minimum DOT 4 standards with a dry boiling point of 450°, while many of the cheaper brake fluids barely meet the minimum requirements to call themselves a DOT 3.

As with most other things there really IS a difference between a cheap brake fluid and a quality brake fluid.

DOT 5 is silicone-based brake fluid with a wet boiling point of more than 500° F.

You may ask yourself why the manufacturers do not simply switch to DOT 5 spec fluid. After all if some is good, more is better, and too much is just right. Right?

Well the DOT 5, while better under heat conditions than DOT 3 or DOT 4, does NOT absorb any moisture, so any moisture that finds its way into the system WILL puddle up somewhere causing rust, corrosion and, possibly, brake fade. You don't want slugs of water floating around any brake system.

Also, DOT 5 silicone fluid contains more absorbed air than DOT 3 or DOT 4 glycol, and it will aerate much more easily when it is pumped through small orifices such as those on an ABS system. For that reason, most manufacturers warn against using a DOT 5 fluid in cars with ABS.

DOT 5 is recommended for vehicles that sit for long periods such as antiques and classics that are stored all winter, and, of course, for racing due to its high heat tolerance. But conditions within the hydraulic system MUST be monitored.

• THE REAL WORLD

Even in sealed automotive brake systems, brake fluid will absorb one percent or more moisture every year simply from opening the reservoir to check fluid level, opening the bleeders, and through microscopic pores in the rubber hoses.

According to one trade publication we read, many two-year-old vehicles have been found to contain two to three percent water in the brake fluid. Imagine how much water must be contained in some six, seven, eight year or older vehicles that have never had their brake fluid serviced.

One percent water content can push DOT 3 fluid down to a 369° boiling point while two percent can push it down to 320°. Three percent can get it down to 293° - dangerously close to minimum DOT 3 requirements.

The rate at which this occurs depends on a lot of things such as the age of the vehicle and the type of hoses used. Better quality hoses are lined to make them less permeable to moisture. Some manufacturers chose to skip the lining in order to sell their product a little cheaper. You get what you pay for.

DOT (Department of Transportation) 3 and DOT 4 specification brake fluids are made from glycol and additives. Glycol absorbs and disperses moisture. The additive package helps to keep the moisture from attacking the internal components of the brake hydraulic system.

Another area of concern on today's automobile that was not a factor years ago is Antilock Braking Systems or ABS. There are many close tolerance components within the ABS system, and moisture can wreak havoc with them. Replacing a single ABS component is often much more expensive than a simple brake fluid service would have been.

The average car on the road today is 10 years-old. According to Brake & Front End Magazine, only half of these cars have ever had their brake fluid changed.

For the average motorist, there might not be that much risk under normal driving conditions. But, prolonged braking such as mountain driving and trailer towing might tax old brake fluid beyond its capacity.




Re: Brake fluid [message #117234 is a reply to message #117224] Wed, 02 March 2011 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ggroth is currently offline  ggroth   United States
Messages: 282
Registered: February 2004
Location: Carson City NV
Karma: 0
Senior Member

Harry, I've always wondered if any studies have been done regarding the climate where the brake fluid resides. I live in the high desert mountain West where the moisture in the air is very little, like 10% much of the time. This as opposed to San Francisco where the percentage might be close to 90% much of the time. Anybody have thoughts on this? Yes, I do change my brake fluids on a regular basis on the GMC and other cars anyway.

geo groth '73 260 Sequoia Carson City Nevada 89703
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117237 is a reply to message #117234] Wed, 02 March 2011 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
I beleive you are on the right track with reference to humidity and
temperature change. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, a big word that means that
it absorbs water. The brake fluid resevoir on the master cylinder is vented
to the ambient air. As temperatures rise and fall, moisture condenses in the
void, a few drops at a time. Water, being a different specific gravity than
brake fluid, tends to migrate through the brake system, and often finds it's
way to the rear drum brake wheel cylinders where it rusts the wearing
surfaces and causes the cups to leak brake fluid. There is some conjecture
that because the master cylinder is exposed to the front hatch which is not
watertight that it can be helpful to attatch a splash apron to the upper
inside flange of the hatch opening and let it drape straight down thereby
deflecting wind driven water away from it. I look at it this way. It can't
hurt, but it is in the way when you check oil, windshield washer fluid,
engine oil, etc. a piece of velcro on the inside of the door and the outside
of the splash apron has been used to hold it up out of the way when doing
this. In any event, probably with the infrequent use that many of our
coaches see, it is a good thing to flush the brake system with brake fluid
from a sealed fresh container about every two calendar years or so in high
humidity areas, maybe three or four years in arid climates like New Mexico
or Arizona. Storage indoors doesn't hurt either.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:48 AM, George Groth <grggroth@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
> Harry, I've always wondered if any studies have been done regarding the
> climate where the brake fluid resides. I live in the high desert mountain
> West where the moisture in the air is very little, like 10% much of the
> time. This as opposed to San Francisco where the percentage might be close
> to 90% much of the time. Anybody have thoughts on this? Yes, I do change
> my brake fluids on a regular basis on the GMC and other cars anyway.
> --
> geo groth '73 260 Sequoia
> Carson City Nevada
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117240 is a reply to message #117237] Wed, 02 March 2011 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Galbavy is currently offline  Jim Galbavy   United States
Messages: 1443
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 7
Senior Member
The coach that JimB was discussing was my ANNIE. When we brought her into the COOP for work (I think it was 6 years ago) she needed the entire brake system replaced (my idea). Leaks out the wazoo and original lines in sick shape. To put in a few words. ....she was a death trap. At my request he replaced the whole system before I would put my family in it for a ride.

I'm glad that when I moved to Florida that I had on the punch list "check brakes and replace fluids". I'm just sorry that ANNIE decided to pitch a fit and lock up the brakes on him.

Sorry Jim.

jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Chesterfield, Va / LAKE MARY, FL
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117247 is a reply to message #117237] Wed, 02 March 2011 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
Jim,

IIRC there is a seal and diaphragm between the vented cover and the surface
of the fluid.

http://tinyurl.com/45vww66

The condensation and transfer would occur but the amount would be limited to
whatever moisture was trapped between the bottom of the diaphragm and the
top of the fluid whenever the master cylinder was opened and checked.

I did a lot of research into brake fluids when I rebuilt the brakes in
Double Trouble and decided to go with ATE Dot 4 fluid.

www.ate-na.com

Below is a copy of an email I sent in back in January of this year:

When we were discussing Dan's brakes someone mentioned that Summit had brake
fluid that came in two colors which made it easy to flush.

I have been a proponent of ATE brake fluid because they make Dot 4 brake
fluid in two colors with the highest dry and wet boiling points available
that was OK for use in non racing vehicles. This was true up until I found
the information on Wilwood EXP 600.

ATE Super Blue Racing: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=21

ATE TYP 200: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=22

As you can see in the blurb ATE recommends changing it every three years and
"The identical specifications of the fluid and color difference make it easy
to know when the old fluid is completely flushed out of the system."

Here's the info on Wilwood EXP 600 on the Summit website:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-290-6209/

Which has the following specs:

Wilwood EXP 600 Plus Super High-Temp racing brake fluid is a highly refined
blend developed for extreme performance under the high heat and extreme
pressure of professional motorsports. EXP 600 Plus has tested to 626 degrees
F with a wet boiling point of 417 degrees F. These numbers far exceed any
DOT or SAE specifications. EXP 600 Plus brake fluid has been proven to
maintain a firm pedal feel and quick response and IT HAS LOW-MOISTURE
AFFINITIES TO SLOW THE NATURAL ABSORPTION RATE OF WATER VAPOR. For optimum
performance, EXP 600 Plus should not be diluted with any other brake fluids;
add new fluid to a clean system.

I contacted Wilwood in an attempt to get a recommended interval to flush it
so I could compare it to the ATE fluid. Below you will find my email and
Wilwood's response. As you can see they said it is OK for street use but
didn't provide a recommended flush interval.

Also at $18.75 for 16.9 ounces (500cc) EXP 600 is three times the price than
the ATE at $12.00 for 33.8 ounces (1000cc). That's $37.00 vs. $12.00. I
found that it took 1 liter to fill the whole system in Double Trouble (front
& middle disks, rear drums) so the cost to fill or flush would triple.

Here's a link to a chart I found that provides some other racing brake
fluids. BE CAREFUL and do your own research as some of these are NOT
recommended for use in non-racing vehicles!

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=BRAKEFLUID

In case you're wondering what I'm going to do; I have two liters of ATE
Super Blue and Three liters of Type 200 so that should answer that question.
So now you ask what would I do if I didn't have that and the answer is
DUNNO! ;-)

STOP THE PRESSES!!!! I just spotted this in Wilwood's flyer on the EXP 600!

"Use of EXP should be restricted to not more than 12 months."

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl178.pdf

Looks like Wilwood customer service leaves a bit to be desired!

Well now I KNOW I'll be staying with ATE!

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

*****************************************************************

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Mueller
To: customerreply@wilwood.com
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:21 PM
Subject: EXP 600 Plus

Hi,

I have a 1975 GMC Motorhome that uses the front end drive/suspension/disk
brakes which are the same as the Oldsmobile Toronado of the same year. The
rear four wheels have drum brakes.

I have just finished rebuilding the system completely and found your EXP 600
racing brake fluid and would like to know if you would recommend putting it
in my Motorhome.

If yes how often would you recommend flushing and refilling it to remove
moisture?

Please advise.

Thank you,
Rob Mueller

********************************************************************

From: Customer Reply [mailto:customerreply@wilwood.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 6:33 AM
To: Rob Mueller
Subject: Re: EXP 600 Plus

Rob,

Thank you for the inquiry with Wilwood Disc Brakes. The Wilwood EXP600
brake fluid is a DOT 4, as long as this is compatible with your hydraulic
system, it is compatible for street use.

Flushing the brake system is not entirely based on time, but also on use and
climate. You will have to monitor it like any other DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake
fluid, to see when flushing is needed.

Regards,
MJ

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 7:42 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid

I beleive you are on the right track with reference to humidity and
temperature change. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, a big word that means that
it absorbs water. The brake fluid resevoir on the master cylinder is vented
to the ambient air. As temperatures rise and fall, moisture condenses in the
void, a few drops at a time. Water, being a different specific gravity than
brake fluid, tends to migrate through the brake system, and often finds it's
way to the rear drum brake wheel cylinders where it rusts the wearing
surfaces and causes the cups to leak brake fluid. There is some conjecture
that because the master cylinder is exposed to the front hatch which is not
watertight that it can be helpful to attatch a splash apron to the upper
inside flange of the hatch opening and let it drape straight down thereby
deflecting wind driven water away from it. I look at it this way. It can't
hurt, but it is in the way when you check oil, windshield washer fluid,
engine oil, etc. a piece of velcro on the inside of the door and the outside
of the splash apron has been used to hold it up out of the way when doing
this. In any event, probably with the infrequent use that many of our
coaches see, it is a good thing to flush the brake system with brake fluid
from a sealed fresh container about every two calendar years or so in high
humidity areas, maybe three or four years in arid climates like New Mexico
or Arizona. Storage indoors doesn't hurt either.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117250 is a reply to message #117247] Wed, 02 March 2011 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
Senior Member

On Mar 2, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:

> Jim,
>
> IIRC there is a seal and diaphragm between the vented cover and the surface
> of the fluid.
>

In most cases that diaphragm is more of a splash shield than a seal. In fact, some of them have a pin hole in them so as to not form a vacuum when depressing the pedal. I have seen many master cylinders, including mine, with rust spots inside it above the fluid level.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM


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Re: Brake fluid [message #117264 is a reply to message #117224] Wed, 02 March 2011 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
Senior Member
Yes the seal is quite poor in almost all cases and the cover needs to be vented above the seal for the diaphragm to work. The thing is is that DOT3 is still relativily so cheap compared to gas and oil and bottled water now that it's crazy not to change it. If you start with a clean and flushed system and then turkey baster what is the MC at least once a year (total cost about $1.50)you are doing yourself a great service. Whereas with the trans fluid if you don't overheat the trans it will stay nice quite a while, but with DOT3 it's more the time factor in the equation than the use, sitting is probably the worst as no heat to rid the H2O. Also if you are a Powermaster guy, do yourself a favor and do the above even more often. Besides the PH change that happens and ruins the rubber parts (the fluid turns black and granular with sediment as a result) the fluid attacks the diaphragm adhesive seal inside the accumulator ball that retains the high pressure nitrogen and the charge bleeds off needing the now extinct Bosch part to be replaced. Be carfull not to overfill the resevoir as that is a common 'top off' mistake at the quickie Lube joints with Powermasters and then it overflows.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117284 is a reply to message #117264] Wed, 02 March 2011 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Rob, I have bled lots of brakes in my life. The GMC MC is a standard GM
part. The rubber diaphram/gasket that is under the cover that is held down
with wire bails is one piece and as the brake fluid resevoir level goes down
with brake pad and shoe wear, kinda turns inside out to minimize the "dead
air space" above the fluid level. That being said, almost every time I have
bled brakes that have been in service for a long while, the first thing that
comes out of the bleeder valves is rusty water. Some of the earlier coaches
like the 73 I am working on presently do not have self adjusting brakes.
They require a manual adjustment any time the pedal gets low. Many of these
coaches do not get backed up enough to self adjust anyhow. It has become my
standard practice while I am adjusting brakes to bleed the back ones. Some
of these low mileage coaches have never had the fluid changed. When the
fluid comes out cloudy after a few seconds of power bleeding and does not
clear up, I will flush the system completely. GM recommends DOT 3 Brake
fluid & I kinda go along with Jim Bounds on this deal. Probably should use
the recommended fluid. The colored fluids that are type 3 are really handy
for determining when you have flushed the system completely. You really only
need one colored one and one clear one but some guys out there use blue &
red. I kinda like the clear because if it leaks red, is it ATF or brake
fluid? Just what I do. I have scratched my head wondering how that much
water can sneak into the system, but I know it does get in there. Brake
fluid is cheap, insurance claims and deductibles are not. If there is a
criticality 1 system on the GMC, it has to be brakes. Lives depend on them
being in good working order. I am not arguing with you, rather agreeing with
you from another point of view.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 3:44 PM, John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> Yes the seal is quite poor in almost all cases and the cover needs to be
> vented above the seal for the diaphragm to work. The thing is is that DOT3
> is still relativily so cheap compared to gas and oil and bottled water now
> that it's crazy not to change it. If you start with a clean and flushed
> system and then turkey baster what is the MC at least once a year (total
> cost about $1.50)you are doing yourself a great service. Whereas with the
> trans fluid if you don't overheat the trans it will stay nice quite a while,
> but with DOT3 it's more the time factor in the equation than the use,
> sitting is probably the worst as no heat to rid the H2O. Also if you are a
> Powermaster guy, do yourself a favor and do the above even more often.
> Besides the PH change that happens and ruins the rubber parts (the fluid
> turns black and granular with sediment as a result) the fluid attacks the
> diaphragm adhesive seal inside the accumulator ball that retains the high
> pressure nitrogen and the charg
> e bleeds off needing the now extinct Bosch part to be replaced. Be carfull
> not to overfill the resevoir as that is a common 'top off' mistake at the
> quickie Lube joints with Powermasters and then it overflows.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117300 is a reply to message #117284] Wed, 02 March 2011 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
Jim,

I had the lid off the OEM M/S on The Blue Streak last week as I am modifying
one of the pressure bleeder adapters that chain on top. The one I have has a
male QD fitting that is 90 degrees perpendicular to the adapter's top which
requires that the female QD be connected vertically. As you know on a GMC
there is no space above the M/S cover. I have figger'd out a way to connect
it horizontally by using a brake banjo fitting.

I when I removed the cover of the M/S I noted a nice even imprint of the
sealing surface of M/S on the gasket and the convoluted "bellows" above each
chamber. I looked it over and don't remember seeing any holes in it hence my
email. There was a bit of rust on the inside of the M/S but nothing to write
home about.

I don't remember ever seeing any master cylinder gaskets with convoluted
"bellows" like this with holes in them; however, if Emery says he has I
believe him, he's older than me and probably has a better memory! ;-)

At any rate the bottom line is that it IS important to do whatever it takes
to maintain the brakes on any vehicle 100% properly. Not doing so WILL
result in disaster!

I will bring the pressure bleeder back to the USA with me and purge the Blue
ATE Dot 4 fluid out with Yellow ATE Dot 4 fluid. I'll report what I find. It
will be a good test to see how much moisture can get into a GMC that has
been stored long periods in a humid environment.

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 2:05 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid

Rob, I have bled lots of brakes in my life. The GMC MC is a standard GM
part. The rubber diaphragm/gasket that is under the cover that is held down
with wire bails is one piece and as the brake fluid resevoir level goes down
with brake pad and shoe wear, kinda turns inside out to minimize the "dead
air space" above the fluid level. That being said, almost every time I have
bled brakes that have been in service for a long while, the first thing that
comes out of the bleeder valves is rusty water. Some of the earlier coaches
like the 73 I am working on presently do not have self adjusting brakes.
They require a manual adjustment any time the pedal gets low. Many of these
coaches do not get backed up enough to self adjust anyhow. It has become my
standard practice while I am adjusting brakes to bleed the back ones. Some
of these low mileage coaches have never had the fluid changed. When the
fluid comes out cloudy after a few seconds of power bleeding and does not
clear up, I will flush the system completely. GM recommends DOT 3 Brake
fluid & I kinda go along with Jim Bounds on this deal. Probably should use
the recommended fluid. The colored fluids that are type 3 are really handy
for determining when you have flushed the system completely. You really only
need one colored one and one clear one but some guys out there use blue &
red. I kinda like the clear because if it leaks red, is it ATF or brake
fluid? Just what I do. I have scratched my head wondering how that much
water can sneak into the system, but I know it does get in there. Brake
fluid is cheap, insurance claims and deductibles are not. If there is a
criticality 1 system on the GMC, it has to be brakes. Lives depend on them
being in good working order. I am not arguing with you, rather agreeing with
you from another point of view.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403



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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117320 is a reply to message #117300] Thu, 03 March 2011 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Rob, what works well for that plate on top is to rifle drill a hole through
the plate to a point where you are deep enough to access the rearmost
chamber, and then cross drill just to the point of intersection. I have some
brass tubing that has a machined O.D. of .375 that I press into the holes
that intersect the rifle drilled one. I cut the tubing so that when the
gasket is installed that it extends into the resevoir about 1/4 in. When you
release the pressure from the pump bottle, it siphons the excess fluid back
into the connecting line leaving the MC with the correct level. When you do
it this way, there is nothing on top of the plate to get in the way. The
first ones of those plates I made had fittings & connecting tubes on top and
were hard to place on top of the MC as a result. That is why I changed to
the way I build them now. I posted some pix of my version of the plate on
the Photo site some time ago under helpful GMC stuff and my name. Let me
know what you find in double trouble, should be a good test for high
humidity.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I had the lid off the OEM M/S on The Blue Streak last week as I am
> modifying
> one of the pressure bleeder adapters that chain on top. The one I have has
> a
> male QD fitting that is 90 degrees perpendicular to the adapter's top which
> requires that the female QD be connected vertically. As you know on a GMC
> there is no space above the M/S cover. I have figger'd out a way to connect
> it horizontally by using a brake banjo fitting.
>
> I when I removed the cover of the M/S I noted a nice even imprint of the
> sealing surface of M/S on the gasket and the convoluted "bellows" above
> each
> chamber. I looked it over and don't remember seeing any holes in it hence
> my
> email. There was a bit of rust on the inside of the M/S but nothing to
> write
> home about.
>
> I don't remember ever seeing any master cylinder gaskets with convoluted
> "bellows" like this with holes in them; however, if Emery says he has I
> believe him, he's older than me and probably has a better memory! ;-)
>
> At any rate the bottom line is that it IS important to do whatever it takes
> to maintain the brakes on any vehicle 100% properly. Not doing so WILL
> result in disaster!
>
> I will bring the pressure bleeder back to the USA with me and purge the
> Blue
> ATE Dot 4 fluid out with Yellow ATE Dot 4 fluid. I'll report what I find.
> It
> will be a good test to see how much moisture can get into a GMC that has
> been stored long periods in a humid environment.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 2:05 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid
>
> Rob, I have bled lots of brakes in my life. The GMC MC is a standard GM
> part. The rubber diaphragm/gasket that is under the cover that is held
> down
> with wire bails is one piece and as the brake fluid resevoir level goes
> down
> with brake pad and shoe wear, kinda turns inside out to minimize the "dead
> air space" above the fluid level. That being said, almost every time I have
> bled brakes that have been in service for a long while, the first thing
> that
> comes out of the bleeder valves is rusty water. Some of the earlier coaches
> like the 73 I am working on presently do not have self adjusting brakes.
> They require a manual adjustment any time the pedal gets low. Many of these
> coaches do not get backed up enough to self adjust anyhow. It has become my
> standard practice while I am adjusting brakes to bleed the back ones. Some
> of these low mileage coaches have never had the fluid changed. When the
> fluid comes out cloudy after a few seconds of power bleeding and does not
> clear up, I will flush the system completely. GM recommends DOT 3 Brake
> fluid & I kinda go along with Jim Bounds on this deal. Probably should use
> the recommended fluid. The colored fluids that are type 3 are really handy
> for determining when you have flushed the system completely. You really
> only
> need one colored one and one clear one but some guys out there use blue &
> red. I kinda like the clear because if it leaks red, is it ATF or brake
> fluid? Just what I do. I have scratched my head wondering how that much
> water can sneak into the system, but I know it does get in there. Brake
> fluid is cheap, insurance claims and deductibles are not. If there is a
> criticality 1 system on the GMC, it has to be brakes. Lives depend on them
> being in good working order. I am not arguing with you, rather agreeing
> with
> you from another point of view.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117321 is a reply to message #117320] Thu, 03 March 2011 05:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr ERFisher is currently offline  Mr ERFisher   United States
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
Senior Member
I posted some pix of my version of the plate on

> the Photo site some time ago under helpful GMC stuff and my name.
>

isn't it just easier to post the link, rather than try to describe how to
search?

gene


--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117322 is a reply to message #117321] Thu, 03 March 2011 05:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Yes it is Gene. It is 3:25 AM here in Gods Country, What are you doing up? I
thought only Steve F was up at this hour. Try as I may, I usually wind up
screwing up the link when I post it and it doesn't work. Could be that I am
running on empty in the sleep department and am not thinking too clearly.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403



On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 3:25 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:

> I posted some pix of my version of the plate on
>
> > the Photo site some time ago under helpful GMC stuff and my name.
> >
>
> isn't it just easier to post the link, rather than try to describe how to
> search?
>
> gene
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117329 is a reply to message #117320] Thu, 03 March 2011 07:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member

Jim,

Appreciate your instructions; however, I already have two of the Pressure
Bleeder Tank P/N 2901 and the M/S adapter pictured directly under the tank.

http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdbrak01.html

The plate looks thick but it is not, it is a casting about 3/8" thick with
1/4" ribs on top of a 1/8" flat plate.

The two aluminum round "slugs" displace fluid and leave the level down about
1/8" from the top of the M/S.

Fluid is fed down through the front "slug" and fills the back reservoir
through the slot in the rubber gasket.

You can see the brass male QD in the lower right of this picture:

http://www.centurytool.net/2216_KD_Tools_Dual_Brk_Bld_Adapt_p/kdt2216.htm

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 10:19 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid

Rob, what works well for that plate on top is to rifle drill a hole through
the plate to a point where you are deep enough to access the rearmost
chamber, and then cross drill just to the point of intersection. I have some
brass tubing that has a machined O.D. of .375 that I press into the holes
that intersect the rifle drilled one. I cut the tubing so that when the
gasket is installed that it extends into the resevoir about 1/4 in. When you
release the pressure from the pump bottle, it siphons the excess fluid back
into the connecting line leaving the MC with the correct level. When you do
it this way, there is nothing on top of the plate to get in the way. The
first ones of those plates I made had fittings & connecting tubes on top and
were hard to place on top of the MC as a result. That is why I changed to
the way I build them now. I posted some pix of my version of the plate on
the Photo site some time ago under helpful GMC stuff and my name. Let me
know what you find in double trouble, should be a good test for high
humidity.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403



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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117338 is a reply to message #117329] Thu, 03 March 2011 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Rob, yep that is the real professional set-up. I once had one of the ball
shaped bladder tanks that run from shop air, the brand name was Sioux, but
it rusted through and that model was no longer in production so I made a
tank from a sprayer, put a gage on it, and that is what I have used for many
years. On the new plastic resevoirs with a screw on cap, I just buy a
replacement top from the "help" display rack or mens mall & drill or epoxy a
barbtite fitting into it. I suppose a large bottle of brake fluid hung 30
feet in the air would work as well.<Grin>
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:

>
> Jim,
>
> Appreciate your instructions; however, I already have two of the Pressure
> Bleeder Tank P/N 2901 and the M/S adapter pictured directly under the tank.
>
> http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdbrak01.html
>
> The plate looks thick but it is not, it is a casting about 3/8" thick with
> 1/4" ribs on top of a 1/8" flat plate.
>
> The two aluminum round "slugs" displace fluid and leave the level down
> about
> 1/8" from the top of the M/S.
>
> Fluid is fed down through the front "slug" and fills the back reservoir
> through the slot in the rubber gasket.
>
> You can see the brass male QD in the lower right of this picture:
>
> http://www.centurytool.net/2216_KD_Tools_Dual_Brk_Bld_Adapt_p/kdt2216.htm
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 10:19 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid
>
> Rob, what works well for that plate on top is to rifle drill a hole through
> the plate to a point where you are deep enough to access the rearmost
> chamber, and then cross drill just to the point of intersection. I have
> some
> brass tubing that has a machined O.D. of .375 that I press into the holes
> that intersect the rifle drilled one. I cut the tubing so that when the
> gasket is installed that it extends into the resevoir about 1/4 in. When
> you
> release the pressure from the pump bottle, it siphons the excess fluid back
> into the connecting line leaving the MC with the correct level. When you do
> it this way, there is nothing on top of the plate to get in the way. The
> first ones of those plates I made had fittings & connecting tubes on top
> and
> were hard to place on top of the MC as a result. That is why I changed to
> the way I build them now. I posted some pix of my version of the plate on
> the Photo site some time ago under helpful GMC stuff and my name. Let me
> know what you find in double trouble, should be a good test for high
> humidity.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117375 is a reply to message #117338] Thu, 03 March 2011 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lqqkatjon is currently offline  lqqkatjon   United States
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
Senior Member
OK, how much better can pressure bleeding be? I know it is simpler, and easier. But before I go out and borrow, build, or buy a pressure bleader system for my motorhome, am I Ok just to have my buddy pump the heck out of the brake pedel and bleed them that way when I change the booster, and adjust the brakes and flush the system this spring?



Jon Roche 75 palm beach EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now. St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117378 is a reply to message #117375] Thu, 03 March 2011 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
Jon,

In a word: MUCH!

BTW I bought mine on eBay and here's one for $65.00: Item 120692631111

It's not a KD but I'm sure it will work fine.

Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426


-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jon Roche
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:33 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid

OK, how much better can pressure bleeding be? I know it is simpler, and
easier. But before I go out and borrow, build, or buy a pressure bleader
system for my motorhome, am I Ok just to have my buddy pump the heck out of
the brake pedel and bleed them that way when I change the booster, and
adjust the brakes and flush the system this spring?

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117382 is a reply to message #117378] Thu, 03 March 2011 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Jon, "Failure is a poor teacher, but only a foolish man learns from this
method on a permanent basis." That was a close quote from one of my AG Shop
instructors in high school. I did not use that quote to imply that you are
foolish. Many others have traveled down the pump, hold, yell, bleed, close,
yell, repeat until you are sure that all the bubbles are purged from the
system. With a power bleeder, the master cylinder resevoirs are completely
filled with brake fluid and the pressure is the same in both sections. This
insures that you are not chasing bubbles back and forth between sections,
and of particular importance that you are not doing the same thing between
front & rear bogie wheels. One other important benefit is that your helper
doesen't sabatoge your best efforts by releasing the pedal in mid bleed,
thereby sucking air back into the system. This can be a severe test of
friendship when one is lying under the coach with brake fluid dripping on
them, while the other one sitting in comfort and bored enough to be fiddling
with the radio or other things when they should be paying attention to what
is going on. Trust me, I like working alone on bleeding brakes much better
and it is a hell of a lot quicker. If you have a level concrete floor, 6
good jack stands, heavy duty floor jacks and air tools to pull the wheels, I
can pressure bleed a GMC in about an hour and a half from start to finish by
myself with no interruptions. Just what I do.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:

> Jon,
>
> In a word: MUCH!
>
> BTW I bought mine on eBay and here's one for $65.00: Item 120692631111
>
> It's not a KD but I'm sure it will work fine.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jon Roche
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:33 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid
>
> OK, how much better can pressure bleeding be? I know it is simpler, and
> easier. But before I go out and borrow, build, or buy a pressure bleader
> system for my motorhome, am I Ok just to have my buddy pump the heck out of
> the brake pedel and bleed them that way when I change the booster, and
> adjust the brakes and flush the system this spring?
>
> ______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117391 is a reply to message #117378] Thu, 03 March 2011 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith V is currently offline  Keith V   United States
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
Senior Member
A pressure bleeder really make life easy
I used a bicycle pump and a piece of 1/4 inchplate with a schreader valve for a while, even that was an improvement!

Bu you have to take it apart constantly to check the fluid level

with a cheap power bleeder, you just pump ot up and bleed to your heats content...

One reason I think we are seeing so much talk about brake fluid now is the longevity of new cars. most cars pre 1990 didn't last too long. I remember 100,000 miles as a LOT of miles
I now have 220,000 miles on mine. I have never replaced the calipers. It would be easy to never bleed the either.

But I have bled then once or twice


Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117531 is a reply to message #117382] Fri, 04 March 2011 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lqqkatjon is currently offline  lqqkatjon   United States
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
Senior Member
Jim,
you have me convinced to be shopping for a pressure bleeder. I personally have been plagued by brake problems my whole life. I used to live in oregon, and I think I have probably been personally responsible for some of the polution in the willamette river from all the side of the road brake bleeding I have done.

But I always thought that just went hand in hand with the VW's I have owned.

OK, you have me sold. shopping for a pressure bleeder.
that one on e-bay looks OK. priced fair.. do you think that is a good route to go? or am I buying junk there?

would want it to fit my GMC, and my CNC brakes on my vw rail. I did see an adapter plate for the CNC.





Jon Roche 75 palm beach EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now. St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
Re: [GMCnet] Brake fluid [message #117533 is a reply to message #117531] Fri, 04 March 2011 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Jon, the one you see on ebay is a fairly good one. I make the top plates
with hold downs and adapt 1/2 gallon pump sprayers with a pressure gage &
all the bleeder hoses needed for a GMC. I would sell the top plate
separately or the whole setup. I have them on hand. Contact me off net for
prices & instructions. jamesh1296@gmail.com
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jon Roche <lqqkatjon@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Jim,
> you have me convinced to be shopping for a pressure bleeder. I personally
> have been plagued by brake problems my whole life. I used to live in
> oregon, and I think I have probably been personally responsible for some of
> the polution in the willamette river from all the side of the road brake
> bleeding I have done.
>
> But I always thought that just went hand in hand with the VW's I have
> owned.
>
> OK, you have me sold. shopping for a pressure bleeder.
> that one on e-bay looks OK. priced fair.. do you think that is a good
> route to go? or am I buying junk there?
>
> would want it to fit my GMC, and my CNC brakes on my vw rail. I did see
> an adapter plate for the CNC.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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