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| [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115865] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 16:18  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I see this, and wonder if you put back a cast iron intake?
The intake gasket never sealed between two cylinders but that did not cause
the major breakdown.
looks like a problem waiting to happen.
also wonder if you had the "Mondello" restrictiors in place to keep the oil
from pooling in the valve covers?
Just back from a 3 day trip with the g-kids, was fun, but , rain, rain,
rain, pix soon
gene
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115873 is a reply to message #115865] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 16:52  |
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Yes, a 20 year old. Imagine that. Apparently racers don't have to pay their dues any more. NASCAR is so boring now that I switched over and watched golf.
Bill Brown - '77 Buckeye Cruiser
Coshocton OH
carguybill@sbcglobal.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115879 is a reply to message #115876] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 17:18 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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David,
If pileups turn you on Destruction Derbies will turn you insane! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of David H. Jarvis
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 10:01 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine
carguy wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 14:52
> Yes, a 20 year old. Imagine that. Apparently racers don't have to pay
their dues any more. NASCAR is so boring now that I switched over and
watched golf.
Oh yeah, golf keeps me on the edge of my seat. Just waiting for a 200 MPH
golf ball pileup. :roll:
--
"I've always been crazy, but it kept me from going insane"
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine/manifold installation [message #115883 is a reply to message #115865] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 17:26 |
Gary Worobec
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Hi,
I just recently fitted the Rockwell manifold to my engine which I believe is
the original engine and has not been out since new. I used Plastigauge to
check it without gaskets. It was all good except for the cylinder #6 and #8
area (right rear) which was open .0015. Then, using SteveF's instructions
checked the seal around all the intake ports using OEM intake gaskets.
(.060) and colored grease which layed an imprint on the gasket . The bottom
of the ports did not have more than 1/8 inch of a seal to the heads. There
is at least 3/8 of an inch of casting which does not get picked up by the
gaskets.
Solution was to custom make new intake gaskets which covered all the head to
manifold surfaces at least 3/8 inch. Not a big deal. I bought gasket
material from Summitt (.060) and then using hole punches, round nosed
woodworking chisel and flat woodworking chisel made new gaskets to port
match the head and aluminum manifold. I then used GasketCinch on the head
side and a very thin bead of red RTV on the manifold side and sucked it down
to 40 ft. lbs with new grade 8 bolds and .125 thick ARP washers. The .0015
did not seem significant enough to warrant remachining of the manifold. If
this had of been maybe .006 or more then yes. After testing it appears that
.060 gasket material will crush to .048 which seemed fine.
I also bought a set of Dick Paterson's intake manifold gaskets. His are .031
thick and he supplies a .025 block off plate. Dick is arguably, the premier
455 builder in North America and because of the care he takes in machining
his blocks and heads can get way with a thinner gasket because his head and
blocks angles are spot on. I elected to use my thicker custom gaskets and a
.047 block off plate.
The issue with using any manifold on a rebuild is that if the guys that deck
the block and surface the heads are not dead on the V-angle of the manifold
will be off. The only solution is to:
a) re-machine the manifold to the new angle based on the crappy block and
head machining.
b) hope that thicker manifold gaskets will take up any discrepancies.
c) Using gasket sealer on both manifold surfaces goes against the rule of
good engine building but in this case why not. You only have to use a bigger
pry bar to get the manifold separated from the heads the next time.
Does all this work,
Stay tuned. Start up with the new manifold and EFI/EBL is next weekend.
Thanks
Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr.erf ERFisher" <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, Februarry 20, 2011 2:18 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Dan's engine
I see this, and wonder if you put back a cast iron intake?
The intake gasket never sealed between two cylinders but that did not cause
the major breakdown.
looks like a problem waiting to happen.
also wonder if you had the "Mondello" restrictiors in place to keep the oil
from pooling in the valve covers?
Just back from a 3 day trip with the g-kids, was fun, but , rain, rain,
rain, pix soon
gene
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine/manifold installation [message #115888 is a reply to message #115883] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 17:41 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The problem is that your letting the gasket slip down.
Just glue the gasket to the head and set up so gasket does not slip
down and quit blaiming the maifold .
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Gary Worobec <gtw5@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> I just recently fitted the Rockwell manifold to my engine which I believe is
> the original engine and has not been out since new. I used Plastigauge to
> check it without gaskets. It was all good except for the cylinder #6 and #8
> area (right rear) which was open .0015. Â Then, using SteveF's instructions
> checked the seal around all the intake ports using OEM intake gaskets.
> (.060) and colored grease which layed an imprint on the gasket . The bottom
> of the ports did not have more than 1/8 inch of a seal to the heads. There
> is at least 3/8 of an inch of casting which does not get picked up by the
> gaskets.
>
> Solution was to custom make new intake gaskets which covered all the head to
> manifold surfaces at least 3/8 inch. Not a big deal. I bought gasket
> material from Summitt  (.060) and then using hole punches, round nosed
> woodworking chisel and flat woodworking chisel made new gaskets to port
> match the head and aluminum manifold. I then used GasketCinch on the head
> side and a very thin bead of red RTV on the manifold side and sucked it down
> to 40 ft. lbs with new grade 8 bolds and .125 thick ARP washers. The .0015
> did not seem significant enough to warrant remachining of the manifold. If
> this had of been maybe .006 or more then yes. After testing it appears that
> .060 gasket material will crush to .048 which seemed fine.
>
> I also bought a set of Dick Paterson's intake manifold gaskets. His are .031
> thick and he supplies a .025 block off plate. Dick is arguably, the premier
> 455 builder in North America and because of the care he takes in machining
> his blocks and heads can get way with a thinner gasket because his head and
> blocks angles are spot on. I elected to use my thicker custom gaskets and a
> .047 block off plate.
>
> The issue with using any manifold on a rebuild is that if the guys that deck
> the block and surface the heads are not dead on the V-angle of the manifold
> will be off. The only solution is to:
>
> a) re-machine the manifold to the new angle based on the crappy block and
> head machining.
>
> b) hope that thicker manifold gaskets will take up any discrepancies.
>
> c) Using gasket sealer on both manifold surfaces goes against the rule of
> good engine building but in this case why not. You only have to use a bigger
> pry bar to get the manifold separated from the heads the next time.
>
> Does all this work,
>
> Stay tuned. Start up with the new manifold and EFI/EBL is next weekend.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gary and Joanne Worobec
> 1973 GMC Glacier
> Anza, CA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mr.erf ERFisher" <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, Februarry 20, 2011 2:18 PM
> Subject: [GMCnet] Dan's engine
>
>
> I see this, and wonder if you put back a cast iron intake?
>
> The intake gasket never sealed between two cylinders but that did not cause
> the major breakdown.
>
> looks like a problem waiting to happen.
>
> also wonder if you had the "Mondello" restrictiors in place to keep the oil
> from pooling in the valve covers?
>
>
> Just back from a 3 day trip with the g-kids, was fun, but , rain, rain,
> rain, Â pix soon
>
> gene
>
> gene
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115914 is a reply to message #115868] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 19:25 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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| WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 14:37 |
I don't think there was a problem with my intake. The gasket had slid when the intake was put on. It was leaking, and sucking in some oil, but not the cause of our failure. We will make sure this gasket is cut for a perfect fit.
Dan
|
I recently had trouble with the my first attempt with the aluminum intake. While I love the Rockwell manifold, one of the differences is that the aluminum manifold has about an 1/8th inch smaller faces on the bottoms of the ports in comparison with the iron intakes. The head has plenty of meat for contact.
The bolt holes in the gaskets can be rather large. This means that it is not hard at all to get the gasket so it is not between the intake and the head at the bottom.
My second try, I RTVd the gasket to the manifold before mounting.
I don't know about burning a valve, but you could suck several quarts of oil in 280 miles. Ask me now I know.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115945 is a reply to message #115944] |
Mon, 21 February 2011 01:04 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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One of the problems with running too much oil is you get foaming or or air bubbles in the oil from the crank shaft beating itself into pool of oil.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115947 is a reply to message #115865] |
Mon, 21 February 2011 01:22 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Michael,
There's an inter-relationship between oil pressure, and oil pump volume, but it's a little tricky. At higher engine speeds, a high volume pump won't pump more oil through the same size oil pressures, unless the pressure relief valve setting is higher than the standard non-high volume pump. Once the oil pump pressure relief valve opens, all that extra volume just goes straight into the pan, but circulating it does add some heat to the oil, and also takes a little bit of extra fuel to do.
At lower engine speeds, before the relief valve opens, the higher volume pump should raise both the pressure and volume through the engine. That may be a good thing, and it may be unnecessary. There's an old rule of thumb that says 10 lbs. of oil pressure per 1,000 engine rpm's is "about right". Since our GMC's are so heavily loaded at low engine rpm's, it's potentially beneficial if a standard volume pump doesn't achieve the 10 per 1,000 rule of thumb. at the 1,500 - 3,000 range where we tend to run. Or, if, a more refined study indicated that our load condition isn't covered by the 10 per 1,000 rule which is sort of a race car guideline, and not a motorhome one. It definitely does take hp to move oil though. In the days when Nascar had separate qualifying engines and race engines, the qualifying engines which didn't need to run very long were set up with fairly low oil pressures to put more hp in the wheels and less in the oil pan.
You've gotten my curiosity up though. Seems like I need to get a real accurate gauge and take some pressure readings at various speeds with my aged fairly loose bearings and worn oil pump to see where my existing coach is. Figure that is about the worse case for volume requirements. I'm thinking if I'm above 25 lbs. or so at 2,000 a standard pump goes in when I get to a re-build, and if I'm not, maybe a high volume one does. I'm still hoping that rebuild day is not close though.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115952 is a reply to message #115868] |
Mon, 21 February 2011 07:24 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In addition to some skill, that was more of a race of attrition than
anything else.
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gene, I did not know who Mondello was last year, other than seeing him on
> the front of a hotrod mag when I was 12 years old.
> I don't think there was a problem with my intake. The gasket had slid when
> the intake was put on. It was leaking, and sucking in some oil, but not the
> cause of our failure. We will make sure this gasket is cut for a perfect
> fit.
> Did you see that 20 year old kid win the Daytona 500?
> Dan
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115959 is a reply to message #115914] |
Mon, 21 February 2011 08:08 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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| George Beckman wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 19:25 |
| WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 14:37 |
I don't think there was a problem with my intake. The gasket had slid when the intake was put on. It was leaking, and sucking in some oil, but not the cause of our failure. We will make sure this gasket is cut for a perfect fit.
Dan
|
I recently had trouble with the my first attempt with the aluminum intake. While I love the Rockwell manifold, one of the differences is that the aluminum manifold has about an 1/8th inch smaller faces on the bottoms of the ports in comparison with the iron intakes. The head has plenty of meat for contact.
The bolt holes in the gaskets can be rather large. This means that it is not hard at all to get the gasket so it is not between the intake and the head at the bottom.
My second try, I RTVd the gasket to the manifold before mounting.
I don't know about burning a valve, but you could suck several quarts of oil in 280 miles. Ask me now I know.
|
i have high oil consumption on a rebuilt engine and have tried everything to find out why. i did replace the intake gaskets with block off plates but paid no attention to the gasket fit. i used Patterson gaskets and plates.
do his gaskets fit the ports better?
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #115968 is a reply to message #115959] |
Mon, 21 February 2011 09:46 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Fred,
All the gaskets will fit fine, but you need to glue it in place well
first so it does not slip down.
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 6:08 AM, fred veenschoten <fredntoni@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> George Beckman wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 19:25
>> WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 14:37
>> > I don't think there was a problem with my intake. The gasket had slid when the intake was put on. It was leaking, and sucking in some oil, but not the cause of our failure. We will make sure this gasket is cut for a perfect fit.
>> > Dan
>>
>>
>> I recently had trouble with the my first attempt with the aluminum intake. Â While I love the Rockwell manifold, one of the differences is that the aluminum manifold has about an 1/8th inch smaller faces on the bottoms of the ports in comparison with the iron intakes. Â The head has plenty of meat for contact.
>>
>> The bolt holes in the gaskets can be rather large. Â This means that it is not hard at all to get the gasket so it is not between the intake and the head at the bottom.
>>
>> My second try, I RTVd the gasket to the manifold before mounting.
>>
>> I don't know about burning a valve, but you could suck several quarts of oil in 280 miles. Â Ask me now I know.
>
> i have high oil consumption on a rebuilt engine and have tried everything to find out why. i did replace the intake gaskets with block off plates but paid no attention to the gasket fit. i used Patterson gaskets and plates.
>
> do his gaskets fit the ports better?
>
> --
> Fred V
> '77 Royale RB 455
> P'cola, Fl
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dan's engine [message #116102 is a reply to message #115968] |
Tue, 22 February 2011 13:11 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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not so
gene
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fred,
> All the gaskets will fit fine, but you need to glue it in place well
> first so it does not slip down.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 6:08 AM, fred veenschoten <fredntoni@cox.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > George Beckman wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 19:25
> >> WD0AFQ wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 14:37
> >> > I don't think there was a problem with my intake. The gasket had slid
> when the intake was put on. It was leaking, and sucking in some oil, but not
> the cause of our failure. We will make sure this gasket is cut for a perfect
> fit.
> >> > Dan
> >>
> >>
> >> I recently had trouble with the my first attempt with the aluminum
> intake. While I love the Rockwell manifold, one of the differences is that
> the aluminum manifold has about an 1/8th inch smaller faces on the bottoms
> of the ports in comparison with the iron intakes. The head has plenty of
> meat for contact.
> >>
> >> The bolt holes in the gaskets can be rather large. This means that it
> is not hard at all to get the gasket so it is not between the intake and the
> head at the bottom.
> >>
> >> My second try, I RTVd the gasket to the manifold before mounting.
> >>
> >> I don't know about burning a valve, but you could suck several quarts of
> oil in 280 miles. Ask me now I know.
> >
> > i have high oil consumption on a rebuilt engine and have tried everything
> to find out why. i did replace the intake gaskets with block off plates but
> paid no attention to the gasket fit. i used Patterson gaskets and plates.
> >
> > do his gaskets fit the ports better?
> >
> > --
> > Fred V
> > '77 Royale RB 455
> > P'cola, Fl
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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