Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Very interesting posting on the photo site
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| Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115832 is a reply to message #115824] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 12:54   |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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That is very interesting.
Note that while the presentation stated it was about the introduction of the "Eleganza II" almost every bit of it was about the changes between the early '73 and '74's and the GMC upfitted coaches from 1975 and on. (Granted the Eleganza II was the most produced of all GMC models.)
Coaches that left GMC as transmodes, might not have these improvements until a later date.... if at all.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115841 is a reply to message #115824] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 13:51 |
bryant374
Messages: 563
Registered: May 2004
Location: Pleasant Valley, NY 12569
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Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site Sun, 20 February 2011 13:54
mike miller
midlf wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 10:13
Bill Bryant has a VERY interesting posting just put on the photo site.
I hope to hear more about this from him and comments from y'all.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5714
That is very interesting.
Note that while the presentation stated it was about the introduction of the "Eleganza II" almost every bit of it was about the changes between the early '73 and '74's and the GMC upfitted coaches from 1975 and on. (Granted the Eleganza II was the most produced of all GMC models.)
Coaches that left GMC as transmodes, might not have these improvements until a later date.... if at all.
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Steve,
You beat me to it. I was still working on the site when you mentioned it. Hope y'all enjoy another piece of GMC history :^)
Mike,
I disagree with your comment, "almost every bit of it was about the changes between the early '73 and '74's".
1973 was a very busy year for GMC MH engineering just fixing those things that required immediate attention. A couple of those were included, but BY FAR, those changes shown in this presentation were implemented for the 1975 model year.
While Transmodes did not always follow the same change introduction as the Motorhomes most of the changes for Motorhomes were used on Transmodes as well.
Bill Bryant
PO 1976~PB (owned 34 years)
1914 Ford (owned 70 years)
1965 Corvette (owned 39 years)
GMC Motorhome History
[Updated on: Sun, 20 February 2011 13:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115842 is a reply to message #115841] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 13:58 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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So what is shown in that site should also apply
to my fairly late 1976 ex Palm Beach except all
the nice stuff that was painted over gray paint
(with a coarse brush) and other butchery by a P.O.?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: bryant374@earthlink.net
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 13:51:37 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Very interesting posting on the photo site
>
>
>
> Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site Sun, 20 February 2011 13:54
> mike miller
>
> midlf wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 10:13
>
> Bill Bryant has a VERY interesting posting just put on the photo site.
>
> I hope to hear more about this from him and comments from y'all.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5714
>
>
>
>
>
> That is very interesting.
>
> Note that while the presentation stated it was about the introduction of the "Eleganza II" almost every bit of it was about the changes between the early '73 and '74's and the GMC upfitted coaches from 1975 and on. (Granted the Eleganza II was the most produced of all GMC models.)
>
> Coaches that left GMC as transmodes, might not have these improvements until a later date.... if at all.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Mike,
> You beat me to it. I was still working on the site when you mentioned it. Hope y'all enjoy another piece of GMC history :^)
>
>
>
> Mike, I disagree with your comment, "almost every bit of it was about the changes between the early '73 and '74's".
>
> 1973 was a very busy year for GMC MH engineering just fixing those things that required immediate attention. A couple of those were included, but BY FAR, those changes shown in this presentation were implemented for the 1975 model year.
>
>
> While Transmodes did not always follow the same change introduction as the Motorhomes most of the changes for Motorhomes were used on Transmodes as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Bill Bryant
> 1976~PB
> 1914 Ford
> 1965 Corvette
> GMC MH History CD
> GMC Showroom Films DVD
> http://bdub.net/billbryant/
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| Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115859 is a reply to message #115824] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 15:42 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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That is a very interesting piece both from a great knowledge standpoint, but also from a historical standpoint. I'm not sure how it was done in the 70's, but certainly in the late 80's through present, something like that would be put together for an annual press show. In recent history, GM has done them at the Milford proving grounds, with each division having an allotted amount of time (typically 1/2 day) to do a presentation on each of their carryover products and a separate time for an all new or major product. They would give the same presentations for two waves during the week, one for "short" lead newspaper, tv and web, and one for "long" lead magazines. Back in the 70's and early 80's, each division typically did their own thing, and there was some competition to have the most ostentatious event to both attract the best press, but also provide good times and wine and dine the executives extravagently. Not sure which scheme GMC used back then, but it was definitely produced for that type of event, so would have related to a specific model years worth of changes. (some might have occurred earlier, but not later, unless they mentioned "interim" or "coming" which it doesn't).
From an era standpoint it's interesting on several levels. How much of that stuff was "in the works" and just didn't make start of the initial (1973) production timing? and how much was remediation or fixes, for things they truly didn't expect. Customer expectations were a lot lower back then, and as a low volume product that was new to the organization, without a lot of competitive data available, there was probably a lot that wasn't known about the validation and use requirements of the coach. (trivial example, but probably real, how much weight does the average customer put in a dinette drawer, and how often do they open and close it? ) At any rate, in today's world, you wouldn't need all those changes, as if you brought a product out with that many issues, you might have a 2nd year of production, but you wouldn't have a 3rd, as customers would just run for the hills.
The fact that GM stepped up and went after it is part of why these coaches are still so loved now. At least anecdotally, the stick and staple manufacturer's still don't seem to do a great job of capturing issues and then going after them, or maintaining best practices so that they repeat the same issues year after year. The all manufacturer warranty by GM probably gave them much better and much quicker feedback on issues then the traditional manufacturers get today, who probably have finally reached the level of warranty information systems today, but don't have the huge field staff that GMC had, that was leveraged across other vehicle lines.
Having edited or written parts of these books before, it's just fun reading. On page 9, where they talk about durability testing, even today you would probably talk about 650,000 miles of testing, because that sounds impressive, but you would have done a more nuanced version fudging the equivalent highway miles description. (And in some respects, you wouldn't have had to fudge it. Showing the change in customer expectations, the last new vehicle I was involved in was '04 and there was an unofficial bogey of 1,000,000 miles or so of real on road testing by employees over several hundred vehicles to account for the use patterns that no one has thought of.) You would never, ever be allowed by legal to mention it was done on only 11 sets of hardware. That's just egging the product liability mills like John Edwards on.
Definitely a great find, and fun afternoon reading though.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115864 is a reply to message #115841] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 16:13 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| bryant374 wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 13:51 |
Steve,
You beat me to it. I was still working on the site when you mentioned it. Hope y'all enjoy another piece of GMC history :^)
|
Yep - I sure do enjoy the background info you have. Every time I click onto the photo site I do a quick check of the new postings. There have been a few interesting things there that never seem to have a posting about them on the Net/Forum.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115905 is a reply to message #115872] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 18:48 |
bryant374
Messages: 563
Registered: May 2004
Location: Pleasant Valley, NY 12569
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Re: [GMCnet] Very interesting posting on the photo site Sun, 20 February 2011 17:48
Robert Mueller
Mike,
Both my Avions which were made in 11/74 have the improvements that relate to
a bare coach.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:55 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Very interesting posting on the photo site
Coaches that left GMC as transmodes, might not have these improvements until
a later date.... if at all.
--
Mike
A little more background:
Keep in mind we are talking about the model year, not the calendar year. The start of production of the 1975 model year was mid July of 1974. The several preceding months of 1974 model year production had two halts in motorhome production due to lack of orders. That was caused by the "gas crisis" in late '73. Surely a poor time to try and sell motorhomes, but an ideal time to implement changes.
There were a number of other likely reasons for these changes, there was leadership change, GMC GM Caserio who was a "volume" guy was replaced by Mair who was a "car guy" and I personally give him a lot of credit for making the MH as good as it was. Alex Mair wanted an upscale MH which surely led to many of the changes on the list. The head guy with responsibility for the MH project left (K.Stubenvoll), the original chief chassis (R.Merkle) & body engineer (J.Locklin) left. The interior upfitting was brought in house from Gemini who had quality control problems. With new people with new ideas and changes required to the original design for reliability/safety,etc reasons it is not suprising that 1975 models had the most significant changes for any year.
I have been told by a couple of those, in the know, that the "fixes" for the early coaches severly affected MH profitability for years.
Bill Bryant
PO 1976~PB (owned 34 years)
1914 Ford (owned 70 years)
1965 Corvette (owned 39 years)
GMC Motorhome History
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| Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115912 is a reply to message #115859] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 19:13 |
bryant374
Messages: 563
Registered: May 2004
Location: Pleasant Valley, NY 12569
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site Sun, 20 February 2011 16:42
Craig Lechowicz
That is a very interesting piece both from a great knowledge standpoint, but also from a historical standpoint. I'm not sure how it was done in the 70's, but certainly in the late 80's through present, something like that would be put together for an annual press show. In recent history, GM has done them at the Milford proving grounds, with each division having an allotted amount of time (typically 1/2 day) to do a presentation on each of their carryover products and a separate time for an all new or major product. They would give the same presentations for two waves during the week, one for "short" lead newspaper, tv and web, and one for "long" lead magazines. Back in the 70's and early 80's, each division typically did their own thing, and there was some competition to have the most ostentatious event to both attract the best press, but also provide good times and wine and dine the executives extravagently. Not sure which scheme GMC used back then, but it was definitely produced for that type of event, so would have related to a specific model years worth of changes. (some might have occurred earlier, but not later, unless they mentioned "interim" or "coming" which it doesn't).
From an era standpoint it's interesting on several levels. How much of that stuff was "in the works" and just didn't make start of the initial (1973) production timing? and how much was remediation or fixes, for things they truly didn't expect. Customer expectations were a lot lower back then, and as a low volume product that was new to the organization, without a lot of competitive data available, there was probably a lot that wasn't known about the validation and use requirements of the coach. (trivial example, but probably real, how much weight does the average customer put in a dinette drawer, and how often do they open and close it? ) At any rate, in today's world, you wouldn't need all those changes, as if you brought a product out with that many issues, you might have a 2nd year of production, but you wouldn't have a 3rd, as customers would just run for the hills.
The fact that GM stepped up and went after it is part of why these coaches are still so loved now. At least anecdotally, the stick and staple manufacturer's still don't seem to do a great job of capturing issues and then going after them, or maintaining best practices so that they repeat the same issues year after year. The all manufacturer warranty by GM probably gave them much better and much quicker feedback on issues then the traditional manufacturers get today, who probably have finally reached the level of warranty information systems today, but don't have the huge field staff that GMC had, that was leveraged across other vehicle lines.
Having edited or written parts of these books before, it's just fun reading. On page 9, where they talk about durability testing, even today you would probably talk about 650,000 miles of testing, because that sounds impressive, but you would have done a more nuanced version fudging the equivalent highway miles description. (And in some respects, you wouldn't have had to fudge it. Showing the change in customer expectations, the last new vehicle I was involved in was '04 and there was an unofficial bogey of 1,000,000 miles or so of real on road testing by employees over several hundred vehicles to account for the use patterns that no one has thought of.) You would never, ever be allowed by legal to mention it was done on only 11 sets of hardware. That's just egging the product liability mills like John Edwards on.
Definitely a great find, and fun afternoon reading though.
>
>
Craig,
Good details, appreciate it.
I have I think 3 press release articles as well as the GMC run over the "4X4s" that was done at one of these. One of the strangest pieces of GMC MH publicity was part of one of the GMC MH Showroom films dealing with reliability testing. They were quoting all the numbers to impress, many cycles, many miles, etc. The film demonstrating the door latch testing showed the entry door closing and there for all to see was a bouncing latch failing. We all know the result of that failing latch with the large SS door patch on early '73s. Someone goofed when that shot of a failing latch was used for sales publicity.
Bill Bryant
PO 1976~PB (owned 34 years)
1914 Ford (owned 70 years)
1965 Corvette (owned 39 years)
GMC Motorhome History
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| Re: Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115919 is a reply to message #115841] |
Sun, 20 February 2011 20:04 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 14:48 |
... Both my Avions which were made in 11/74 have the improvements that relate to
a bare coach.
|
The changes that was thinking about (the ones slow to be incorporated into transmodes) where mostly in the dash area. For example: My '78 Birchaven (a late transmode upfitted by Coachman) doesn't have the spring loaded boost switch mentioned in the presentation. I understand the equipment actually installed in each transmode was a bit inconsistent.
I can see the changes to the body, frame and running gear would be the same for all coaches... transmode or not.
| bryant374 wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 11:51 |
.. I disagree with your comment, "almost every bit of it was about the changes between the early '73 and '74's". ...
|
I believe I was talking about the changes for the 1975 model year. (The first year for the Eleganza II.) Somehow the last part of my statement was trimmed: "...and the GMC upfitted coaches from 1975 and on."
Anyway, I liked the posting of the presentation and it does mention some of the good changes made for the 1975 model year... even coaches other than the Eleganza II.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Very interesting posting on the photo site [message #115992 is a reply to message #115905] |
Mon, 21 February 2011 16:01 |
Erv Troyer
Messages: 125
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lagrange, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Bill Bryant wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 18:48 |
A little more background:
Keep in mind we are talking about the model year, not the calendar year. The start of production of the 1975 model year was mid July of 1974. The several preceding months of 1974 model year production had two halts in motorhome production due to lack of orders. That was caused by the "gas crisis" in late '73. Surely a poor time to try and sell motorhomes, but an ideal time to implement changes.
|
Yes it was definitely a poor time to sell motorhomes. I was calling on Winnebago as a Service Engineer for Duo-Therm during 1973, and they were building 610 Class A boxes per week during that summer. In September, 1973 the bottom fell out of the RV market. I was in Forest City that fall for a rally and Winnebago had a large field (probably ~40 acres or more) with $28 million worth of coaches that were not sold.
And I recall that "gas crisis" too. I didn't dare let the tank in my 73 Plymouth wagon get much below 1/2 tank because so many stations were out of gas or were limiting gallons you could buy. And I also saw a large tanker in upstate Michigan filling the tanks at a station that had gone out of business - they had to do something with all that gas that they weren't delivering to stations that were still trying to sell gas....
Bill, I notice these pictures were made from a PDF file. Is there a chance you could make this available to us as one PDF file, either by posting it to the GMC photo site, or by attaching it to an email? That would be nice to keep in my GMC History folder.
And thanks for posting it.
Erv Troyer Lagrange, IN
74 Sequoia
reo43@aol.com
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