Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? (An HD antenna that does not need to be aimed....)
| Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112077] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 18:00  |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
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Hello folks
I had to use the new freq box for some programming I wanted to see. Problem was I had to make an antenna.
I had toyed with trying to make an antenna that did not need to be aimed, or NON DIRECTIONAL but everyone I spoke to said it can't be done.
Being a GMC'er, I went ahead and experimented. The last Directional antenna I had would pull in 30 channels, forward and backward, NO SIDE SIGNALS.
I currently have an antenna that is pulling in 64 channels, range is about 50 miles in all directions and I would estimate over half of them have signal strength near the top or pegged at max. Not bad for an experiment, would you say? Of course location is everything, and is true with signal strength as well.
The prototype size is about 14x14x14, not including the mast. I think this might be able to be made shorter, that will be the next prototype.
I am still experimenting with it but if anyone is interested in trying it out, I would be happy to make up a drawing of how to make it and see how your reception might be. Cost to make was about $6 and some wire coat hangers.
I would eventually like to see up to 100 mile range but that may require an amplifier as well as a modified change to the current design.
Just wanted to pass this out and see if there were any interest.
SLawrence111 (at) Yahoo (dot) Com
Keep those tires spinning.
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112081 is a reply to message #112077] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 18:26  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Horizontally polarized UHF TV antennas can be made to be non-directional but you loose some gain (range) in doing so. I think that round pizza pie pan looking thing on some RVs is non-directional. How about some pictures on what you are building. I'm always interested in new antenna designs.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112084 is a reply to message #112081] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 19:38 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Ken,
FYI,
I have a pizza box antenna on the roof. It is a Winegard Roadstar 82
channel (dated 1989) RV/Van antenna. Model is RV-3800. I opened it up last
year and cleaned out the mud dabber evidence. It's all back together, but I
have not tried it. I'm doing some inside work and the interior wiring is
apart.
Not knowing what the current band plan for TV is - I have no idea what
channels it will receive.
However, here are the specs from the manual:
Amplifier Gain
VHF-FM 15.5dB avg.
UHF 19.5dB avg.
Impedance 75 ohm unbalanced
Response .25dB per 6MHz
VSWR 1.8:1 max.
Power required 12 volts at 85ma
The manual claims the built in amplifier provides 6 times the receive signal
on VHF and 9 times on UHF.
Just thought you might be interested. I may have some pictures of the clean
up, I just have to find them. Right now there is snow on the roof - which
means - I won't be.
Tom
1
n Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Horizontally polarized UHF TV antennas can be made to be non-directional
> but you loose some gain (range) in doing so. I think that round pizza pie
> pan looking thing on some RVs is non-directional. How about some pictures
> on what you are building. I'm always interested in new antenna designs.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112093 is a reply to message #112077] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 20:43 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Larry
I would interested in seeing what you have put together what I am using at the house now is very directional a little bit of wind and I am back on the roof aiming it again.
John
jhbmjk (at) gmail (dot) com
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112097 is a reply to message #112084] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 20:55 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Tom,
Funny but this past summer I pulled the top off my Winegard Omi-directional
antennae and cleaned out the bugs in it too! It was on Double Trouble when I
bought it and is old. It has four mounting legs whereas current production
RS-2000 only have three. I'm not sure which model it is as the tag is gone.
Here's the specs for this type of antennae as found in the manual below:
ROADSTAR
RV AND VAN TV ANTENNA
MODELS RS-2000 & RS-3460/RS3460B
SPECIFICATIONS
Bandpass
VHF/FM.................54 to 216 MHz
UHF ...................470 to 810 MHz
Amplifier Gain
VHF* .................15.5 dB avg.
UHF ..................19.5 dB avg.
Impedance ............75 ohm unbalanced
Response .............25 dB per 6 MHz
VSWR..................1.8:1 max.
Power Required........12 VDC at 85 ma
Weatherproof Housing Weatherable UV Stabilized Copolymer
Here's a link to the downloadable manual:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451806.pdf
It feeds this power supply/amplifier plate:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451489.pdf
While I had it apart I called Winegard tech support to check and make sure I
was using the correct wall plate and was advised that I was.
I also asked if the newer RS-2000 Models had been changed in any way since
the introduction of digital TV and was told no.
During our trip this past summer I would have the TV do an automatic scan
for local channels whenever we stopped for the evening. I found that I got
reasonable reception on a enough channels to fall asleep watching!
While I was parked at the Lake Houston Marina RV Park in Huffman, Texas
where I stayed while working on the VW towd one day the reception on a
particular channel would be great the next day lousy. I assume that was due
to atmospheric conditions.
BTW if anybody needs a new wall plate I have an extra one; somehow I wound
up with two of them.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Tom Eckert
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 12:39 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be?
Ken,
FYI,
I have a pizza box antenna on the roof. It is a Winegard Roadstar 82
channel (dated 1989) RV/Van antenna. Model is RV-3800. I opened it up last
year and cleaned out the mud dabber evidence. It's all back together, but I
have not tried it. I'm doing some inside work and the interior wiring is
apart.
Not knowing what the current band plan for TV is - I have no idea what
channels it will receive.
However, here are the specs from the manual:
Amplifier Gain
VHF-FM............15.5dB avg.
UHF...............19.5dB avg.
Impedance.........75 ohm unbalanced
Response..........25dB per 6MHz
VSWR..............1.8:1 max.
Power required ...12 volts at 85ma
The manual claims the built in amplifier provides 6 times the receive signal
on VHF and 9 times on UHF.
Just thought you might be interested. I may have some pictures of the clean
up, I just have to find them. Right now there is snow on the roof - which
means - I won't be.
Tom
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112098 is a reply to message #112084] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 21:05 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| gmcrv1 wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 19:38 |
Ken,
FYI,
I have a pizza box antenna on the roof. It is a Winegard Roadstar 82
channel (dated 1989) RV/Van antenna. Model is RV-3800. I opened it up last
year and cleaned out the mud dabber evidence. It's all back together, but I
have not tried it. I'm doing some inside work and the interior wiring is
apart.
Not knowing what the current band plan for TV is - I have no idea what
channels it will receive.
However, here are the specs from the manual:
Amplifier Gain
VHF-FM 15.5dB avg.
UHF 19.5dB avg.
Impedance 75 ohm unbalanced
Response .25dB per 6MHz
VSWR 1.8:1 max.
Power required 12 volts at 85ma
The manual claims the built in amplifier provides 6 times the receive signal
on VHF and 9 times on UHF.
Just thought you might be interested. I may have some pictures of the clean
up, I just have to find them. Right now there is snow on the roof - which
means - I won't be.
Tom
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Here is what happened or is happening to TV.
We had three TV bands before
VHF low - Channels 2-6
VHF high - Channels 7-13
UHF - Channels 14 and above
With the conversion to digital we are abandoning the VHF low band and moved most of those channels to UHF. In most areas of the country all of the channels will be on UHF only. In a few areas (like Chicago) the VHF high channels did not move to the UHF band.
The end result on antennas is that if your old antenna worked before it should still work today. The bands are the same except we just abandoned one of them.
If you are buying a new antenna it could now be physically smaller. The reason for this is the VHF low band that is being abandoned required the largest antenna.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112103 is a reply to message #112100] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 22:19 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The Wingard "pizza Box" is a molded-into-a-circular shape folded dipole design, with a broadband amplifier added for additional signal boost. It came in two different physical sizes; at least the Marine versions did. The circular shape gives it some omni directional properties.
Most "analog" TV antennas will work just fine, as the physical antennas has no "method" to determine if the incoming signal is analog or digital. Ignore the hype. Antenna size is related to the receive frequency range.
If you want to have fun with antenna design, make a log periodic dipole array (LDPA). They may be a little big for an RV array, but will really pull a distant weak signal. They are highly directional. It would be easy to design one that would cover the current VHF and UHF, using the same boom. It would be easier to design one for the UHF bands, just based on physical size.
Generally speaking, most VHF/UHF TV signals are line-of-sight (ignoring ducting, etc.). Line-of-sight is the physical horizon, about 27 kilometers. The higher the antenna, the further the distance to the horizon. VHF/UHF signals do not "bend" around the earth, they tend to continue in a straight line into outer space.
Omni-directional means receives equal in all directions. If you are chasing distant stations, you will need a directional antenna.
I enjoy parks with cable installations.
Tom Phipps, KA4CSG
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112119 is a reply to message #112077] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 08:45 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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i would like to see the design too.
when i lived on my sailboat i made a dipole antenna from antenna wire and attached to a wood stick. i would raise it up the mast and tie off the ends to point it. worked great.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112124 is a reply to message #112119] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 09:36 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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For additional information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_broadcast_television_frequencies .
Current over-the-air digital frequencies are; VHF (Channel 7 to 13) 174 to 216 Mhz, UHF (Channel 14 to 51) 470 to 698 Mhz.
In some rural areas, analog TV is still allowed, due to digital signal losses. The entire WikiPedia article is a good read on the subject.
For further, more detailed antenna construction information, consult the ARRL Handbook, and the ARRL Antenna Manual. Check your local library. Antennas follow the rules of physics, and these documents will guide you along the path of antenna design and construction. Keep in mind, that these antennas designs are also used for transmitting as well as receiving. Receiving antennas are less critical of actual lengths of elements, but the rules still apply for best results.
Tom Phipps. KA4CSG
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112135 is a reply to message #112077] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 11:16 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi All
As of today, 01-16-2011, I have sent my drawing to those that indicated interest in this prototype antenna.
Many thanks for the interest and good luck with the build.
If you have not received the drawings or are interested please do contact me via email.
This has been a fun experiment
SLawrence111 ( at ) Yahoo ( dot ) Com
Gatsbys' CRUISER 08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be? [message #112142 is a reply to message #112077] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 10:17 |
robert caudle
Messages: 25
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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i would like a plan, thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry" <slawrence111@yahoo.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:00 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Omnidirectional HD Antenna, can it be?
>
>
> Hello folks
> I had to use the new freq box for some programming I wanted to see.
> Problem was I had to make an antenna.
>
> I had toyed with trying to make an antenna that did not need to be aimed,
> or NON DIRECTIONAL but everyone I spoke to said it can't be done.
>
> Being a GMC'er, I went ahead and experimented. The last Directional
> antenna I had would pull in 30 channels, forward and backward, NO SIDE
> SIGNALS.
>
> I currently have an antenna that is pulling in 64 channels, range is about
> 50 miles in all directions and I would estimate over half of them have
> signal strength near the top or pegged at max. Not bad for an experiment,
> would you say? Of course location is everything, and is true with signal
> strength as well.
>
> The prototype size is about 14x14x14, not including the mast. I think
> this might be able to be made shorter, that will be the next prototype.
>
> I am still experimenting with it but if anyone is interested in trying it
> out, I would be happy to make up a drawing of how to make it and see how
> your reception might be. Cost to make was about $6 and some wire coat
> hangers.
>
> I would eventually like to see up to 100 mile range but that may require
> an amplifier as well as a modified change to the current design.
>
> Just wanted to pass this out and see if there were any interest.
>
> SLawrence111 (at) Yahoo (dot) Com
>
> Keep those tires spinning.
>
> --
> Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
> 74 GLACIER X, 260
> 455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
> Remflex Manifold gaskets
> _______________________________________________
> Purchased 08-18-04
>
> _
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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> No virus found in this message.
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