Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » MPG and TBI questions
| MPG and TBI questions [message #111546] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 12:47  |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
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The consensus seems to be that TBI improves mileage but not enough to justify it alone, right?
But can anyone tell me how much?
I realize some folks probably went form a poorly tunning carb to a well running TBI.
Also, has anyone done it by canabalizing an existing vehicle instead of buy the bolt on package?
How hard is that ?
thanks
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111554 is a reply to message #111546] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 15:36  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Dave,
Until recently, it was that your gain was minimal.
Now with the distributer control using the EBL option, the milage is
going to be better than before.
Ignition timing is very important to milage.
If your getting 8-10 now, you can see 9-12 depending on how you trim
the program.
The people that have purchased the Howell with the Electrical
distributer and the EBL are doing on the average 2mpg better.
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:47 AM, dave silva <david.j.silva@uscg.mil> wrote:
>
>
> The consensus seems to be that TBI improves mileage but not enough to justify it alone, right?
>
> But can anyone tell me how much?
>
> I realize some folks probably went form a poorly tunning carb to a well running TBI.
>
> Also, has anyone done it by canabalizing an existing vehicle instead of buy the bolt on package?
>
> How hard is that ?
>
> thanks
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
>
> Happy owners of a 1972 Flatnose Revcon
> Here by the generosity of the GMC community
> http://www.davesilva.com/revcon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111563 is a reply to message #111558] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 16:38 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
Karma: 0
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well, if it's a pretty definite 2MPG then it's a no-brainer for most people.
My spreadsheet says you'll get it back in 24,000 miles at current gas prices.
(figuring $1200for the Howell kit)
Thanks
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111574 is a reply to message #111546] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 17:34 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| hertfordnc wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 10:47 |
The consensus seems to be that TBI improves mileage but not enough to justify it alone, right?
But can anyone tell me how much?
I realize some folks probably went form a poorly tunning carb to a well running TBI.
Also, has anyone done it by canabalizing an existing vehicle instead of buy the bolt on package?
How hard is that ?
thanks
|
This is probably more information than you want, and may make you think this is endlessly difficult. I am going to describe some of the "goodies" that can go with TBI. You can just put a TBI on and drive. Many have done it. Some of us are working with the whole system to try to achieve the best overall performance. We are just putting on things all cars have these days. I shared my "tweaks" with Len recently and he drove away. He just sent a note saying he went over Tehachapi at 50 mph, in third, towing. On to what is possible.
Jim is right. TBI only corrects any problems with the Quadrajet. The TBI is constantly adjusting the fuel mixture as it is checked in the exhaust. Most TBI folks have added a Wide Band air fuel sensor. If I had to go back to a QJet, I would still want one. Otherwise you don't really know what mixture is being delivered. Too rich wastes gas. Too lean on a hard pull and you can waste an engine. (Both QJet and TBI have built in Power Enrichment... shoving in more gas to cool the combustion when pulling hard.)
The Electronic Spark Control (ESC) is the one that can really make a difference. We ESC folks are running fairly aggressive spark advance with the safety valve of the knock sensor, that retards the spark when it hears pinging. ESC was where I first noticed an mpg improvement. My old QJet was pretty well tuned. GMCs are so hard to fill equally, but on a 9K trip I felt like I was doing about 1 mpg better with ESC.
There has been talk of EBL. EBL makes any tuning changes you might want to make much simpler but it is not free. EBL also adds a What's Up Display (WUD) that lets you know exactly what your engine is doing as you drive. Some of us put in screens and have it up all the time. You can record trips and look at them later to see how things were working. Not necessary, but sure fun to finally know the spark advance, the fuel mixture, the knocks, gallons used and a dozen others. When driving the Honda, I find I wish I had a WUD.
Adding a Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) allows the EBL to activate two features: Lean Cruise... less gas when the rig is cruising and DFCO... shutting off the injectors when coasting. All cars have had these features for years. When the engine goes into Lean Cruise, the MPG jumps 1 mpg instantly. When going down hill, the MPG instantly goes to 99 mpg on the WUD. That is fun and makes you wish you could always coast.
Am I getting 12 mpg? Absolutely not. But I am having fun.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111592 is a reply to message #111563] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 18:59 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Dave,
One thing:
Insert Jim B's standard rant about EFI vs. carbs below. ;-)
http://www.gmccoop.com/new_page_15.htm
I am playing Switzerland in this argument, neutral. The Blue Streak here in
Australia has a Holley Commander 950 EFI and I can tell you in comparison to
Double Trouble it goes like a scalded cat! However, as I noted in a recent
e-mail I've bought a rebuilt QuadraJet off eBay to carry with me on trips to
the Outback!
When the Caddy (LPG) engine is ready to be installed I'll probably take the
Edelbrock and Holley off and bring it to the USA and install it on Double
Trouble.
I am planning on setting up the Caddy to run on LPG only, however, Mark
Bennett has suggested I consider that carefully as he thinks it would be
prudent to leave the petrol tanks in there (at least one) just in case the
LPG system has problems.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of dave silva
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:38 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions
well, if it's a pretty definite 2MPG then it's a no-brainer for most
people.
My spreadsheet says you'll get it back in 24,000 miles at current gas
prices.
(figuring $1200for the Howell kit)
Thanks
--
Dave & Ellen Silva
Happy owners of a 1972 Flatnose Revcon
Here by the generosity of the GMC community
http://www.davesilva.com/revcon
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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GMCnet mailing list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111596 is a reply to message #111592] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 19:26 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
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I read that and Jim's other comments on the subject some time ago and accepted that I would be one of the purists who stuck with the tried and true carb.
But Jim uses words like "exotic" and "morphodite".
but If we can build a system from a stock GM truck with mostly parts available from NAPA then what's the problem?
AM i missing something? Is this not pretty much the same as the average early 90's Chevy truck?
thanks
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111601 is a reply to message #111596] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 19:55 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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I am not trying to speak for Jim B. Some of the issues surrounding the
throttle body can be traced to installation. With a carb, anybody can remove
the engine hatch cover and air cleaner, pull the throttle back, and verify
that fuel is spraying into the engine. When a FI engine quits, you don't
know READILY with simple check steps if you are out of fuel, or the fuel
pump died or quit for some other reason, whether you have a failed
electronic or electrical component. AFTER you become more familiar with it,
it seems as simple as a carb system. There are a number of different systems
available and they all have their quirks. They positively handle oxygenated
fuels better than carbs do, and if the percentage of alcohol increases as
some predict it will, they should handle it as well. Obviously the fuel
supply system in our GMCs is going to be more problems with deteriorating
rubber and plastic parts that were never intended for use with blended
fuels, but there are solutions for that as well. I really feel if you have a
good quadrajet, properly set up, that it does an adequate job. If you have a
well sorted TBI setup with spark control and rich/lean controls with knock
sensor and O2 sensors, they run very well and adjust themselves for altitude
changes. They are more expensive than a carb setup, but they start right now
and perhaps have a slight edge in performance throughout the RPM range that
we use our coaches in.
No clear cut winner, I don't feel. It kinda reminds me of the owner
preferences for a certain brand of auto. There are ford guys, and chev guys,
and mopar guys. No empirical evidence to prove which one is best, cars or
guys <Grin>.
Just my two cents worth. Believe it or don't. It won't change history one
way or the other.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403 with a carb.
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 5:26 PM, dave silva <david.j.silva@uscg.mil> wrote:
>
>
> I read that and Jim's other comments on the subject some time ago and
> accepted that I would be one of the purists who stuck with the tried and
> true carb.
>
> But Jim uses words like "exotic" and "morphodite".
>
> but If we can build a system from a stock GM truck with mostly parts
> available from NAPA then what's the problem?
>
> AM i missing something? Is this not pretty much the same as the average
> early 90's Chevy truck?
>
> thanks
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
>
> Happy owners of a 1972 Flatnose Revcon
> Here by the generosity of the GMC community
> http://www.davesilva.com/revcon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111607 is a reply to message #111546] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 20:32 |
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You know I have something to add, I'm looking a a EFI setup after seeing what a years worth of ethanol gas will do to a new holley carb! it rotted away my secondaries! so im looking for something that will be a little more robust. the new aluminum holleys are 500 bux, thats half of an EFI system.
Also I recently installed a Floscan fuel meter, and I noticed something interesting, when cruising at 50 mph on level ground I could get engine vac at 15 inches, at this level and speed fuel consumption dropped from 5 gallons per hour or 10 MPG to 4 gallons per hour or 12.5 mpg, this is on a 455. so it seems if one carefully select one of jims lower gears to attain a higher vac during cruise one could also see a gain in MPG that way....
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111651 is a reply to message #111607] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 12:07 |
Oldngray
Messages: 544
Registered: August 2009
Location: Punta Gorda Florida
Karma: 0
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| Duce Apocalypse wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 21:32 |
Also I recently installed a Floscan fuel meter, and I noticed something interesting, when cruising at 50 mph on level ground I could get engine vac at 15 inches, at this level and speed fuel consumption dropped from 5 gallons per hour or 10 MPG to 4 gallons per hour or 12.5 mpg, this is on a 455. so it seems if one carefully select one of jims lower gears to attain a higher vac during cruise one could also see a gain in MPG that way....
|
What am I missing here? I cruise at 50-55, vac 16-17, and I still get 8.3-9.1 mpg with my 455 and 3.07 in Florida which is quite flat.
Richard MacDonald
Punta Gorda, Florida
Sold our TZE April 2015
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111652 is a reply to message #111546] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 12:10 |
captjack
Messages: 271
Registered: February 2010
Location: Sebastopol, California
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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It's my understanding that a 76 (or is it 75) or newer coach with TBI won't pass the California Smog Test because this "modification" isn't approved by the appropriate California agency. So that means this discussion, while interesting, doesn't lead to something I (or others with "newer" coaches) could do and still get license renewals.
Jack Christensen - K6ROW,
'76 Glenbrook/Clasco - "The Silver Bullet",
Sebastopol, CA
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111674 is a reply to message #111651] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 17:46 |
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Still running a Qjet? I'm running a tuned holley so maybe that's the difference? The floscan measüres fuel throughput into the carb as well as total fuel burned. So 5 gal/hr @ 50 mpg = 10mpg and 4 gal an hour at same speed is 12.5 mpg. The floscan isjan interesting device and helpful to kep track of how much fuel is left in the tanks...
| Oldngray wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:07 |
| Duce Apocalypse wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 21:32 |
Also I recently installed a Floscan fuel meter, and I noticed something interesting, when cruising at 50 mph on level ground I could get engine vac at 15 inches, at this level and speed fuel consumption dropped from 5 gallons per hour or 10 MPG to 4 gallons per hour or 12.5 mpg, this is on a 455. so it seems if one carefully select one of jims lower gears to attain a higher vac during cruise one could also see a gain in MPG that way....
|
What am I missing here? I cruise at 50-55, vac 16-17, and I still get 8.3-9.1 mpg with my 455 and 3.07 in Florida which is quite flat.
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73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: MPG and TBI questions [message #111675 is a reply to message #111652] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 17:54 |
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That is exactly the reason why I bought a 73. I didn't want to be hampered by the CA bull$hit. Unless Howell is interested in paying the corrupt CARB 500k for an exemption order, it will not be legal for smog in post 75 vehicles, even if the mod creates lower emissions or is cleaner running overall. So to use that TBI on a post 75 CA rig you will have 2 options, regester out of state (easy if you have family in another state) or find a friend of a friend smog guy who will look the other way for a little extra cash. That's how I get one of my mustangs through even though it passes the sniffer, no way in hell it will pass a visual...
| captjack wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:10 |
It's my understanding that a 76 (or is it 75) or newer coach with TBI won't pass the California Smog Test because this "modification" isn't approved by the appropriate California agency. So that means this discussion, while interesting, doesn't lead to something I (or others with "newer" coaches) could do and still get license renewals.
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73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111679 is a reply to message #111675] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 18:21 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Captjack,
Investigate registering it in Montana; as I understand it that's what non-US
residents do.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:54 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions
That is exactly the reason why I bought a 73. I didn't want to be hampered
by the CA bull$hit. Unless Howell is interested in paying the corrupt CARB
500k for an exemption order, it will not be legal for smog in post 75
vehicles, even if the mod creates lower emissions or is cleaner running
overall. So to use that TBI on a post 75 CA rig you will have 2 options,
regester out of state (easy if you have family in another state) or find a
friend of a friend smog guy who will look the other way for a little extra
cash. That's how I get one of my mustangs through even though it passes the
sniffer, no way in hell it will pass a visual...
captjack wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:10
> It's my understanding that a 76 (or is it 75) or newer coach with TBI
won't pass the California Smog Test because this "modification" isn't
approved by the appropriate California agency. So that means this
discussion, while interesting, doesn't lead to something I (or others with
"newer" coaches) could do and still get license renewals.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111680 is a reply to message #111674] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 18:24 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Shan,
Not meaning to be argumentative but have you checked the Floscan against
what you put in the tanks?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:47 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions
Still running a Qjet? I'm running a tuned holley so maybe that's the
difference? The floscan measüres fuel throughput into the carb as well as
total fuel burned. So 5 gal/hr @ 50 mpg = 10mpg and 4 gal an hour at same
speed is 12.5 mpg. The floscan isjan interesting device and helpful to kep
track of how much fuel is left in the tanks...
Oldngray wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:07
> Duce Apocalypse wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 21:32
> > Also I recently installed a Floscan fuel meter, and I noticed something
interesting, when cruising at 50 mph on level ground I could get engine vac
at 15 inches, at this level and speed fuel consumption dropped from 5
gallons per hour or 10 MPG to 4 gallons per hour or 12.5 mpg, this is on a
455. so it seems if one carefully select one of jims lower gears to attain a
higher vac during cruise one could also see a gain in MPG that way....
>
>
>
> What am I missing here? I cruise at 50-55, vac 16-17, and I still get
8.3-9.1 mpg with my 455 and 3.07 in Florida which is quite flat.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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_______________________________________________
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111683 is a reply to message #111680] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 18:40 |
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Robert, gonna do that tonight, I just installed it last sunday so I only have some preliminary data, and only have about 5 gallons run though the unit. I'm gonna top off the tanks tonight since the price of petrol is again on the march upwards. so I will check over the next couple weeks and take the rig out on some short trips and then fill it again to test it. I hought of even taking a small 2 gallon tank, and flling it with exactly 2 gallons then feeding that though the fuel sensor, from what I understand its accurate to .1 gallons...
| Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 18:24 |
Shan,
Not meaning to be argumentative but have you checked the Floscan against
what you put in the tanks?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Shan Rose
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:47 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions
Still running a Qjet? I'm running a tuned holley so maybe that's the
difference? The floscan measüres fuel throughput into the carb as well as
total fuel burned. So 5 gal/hr @ 50 mpg = 10mpg and 4 gal an hour at same
speed is 12.5 mpg. The floscan isjan interesting device and helpful to kep
track of how much fuel is left in the tanks...
Oldngray wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:07
> Duce Apocalypse wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 21:32
> > Also I recently installed a Floscan fuel meter, and I noticed something
interesting, when cruising at 50 mph on level ground I could get engine vac
at 15 inches, at this level and speed fuel consumption dropped from 5
gallons per hour or 10 MPG to 4 gallons per hour or 12.5 mpg, this is on a
455. so it seems if one carefully select one of jims lower gears to attain a
higher vac during cruise one could also see a gain in MPG that way....
>
>
>
> What am I missing here? I cruise at 50-55, vac 16-17, and I still get
8.3-9.1 mpg with my 455 and 3.07 in Florida which is quite flat.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions [message #111723 is a reply to message #111719] |
Wed, 12 January 2011 01:45 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Mike is correct, however, antique registration usually comes with
restrictions as to when you can use the vehicle.
I have Texas antique plates on Double Trouble but:
1) I use a friend of mines address in Houston as a residence but I really
don't live there - OBVIOUSLY!
2) I can drive to / return from an event.
3) I can drive to / from maintenance.
4) I can drive it for testing.
Bottom line - investigate what the requirements are wherever you want to
register the vehicle.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 5:16 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] MPG and TBI questions
Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 16:21
Investigate registering it in Montana; as I understand it that's what non-US
residents do.
Even better if you can find a state that has antique or classic
registrations. Many are a one time payment / permanent registration.
Oregon is like this and even though the Portland metro area requires smoging
1976 and newer, with SP (Special Purpose) plates, I do not need to smog my
'78. Not bad for about $80.00.
--
Not sure of the hoops you will have to jump through to keep YOUR state off
you back. Maybe it would be easier to elect people who make the laws that
you want. :cry:
--
Mike Miller
#01 - `73 26' X Painted D. "The Spare"
#02 - `78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath "The User"
#03 - `77 23' Birchaven Side Bath "The Keeper"
Hillsboro, OR
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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