Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 (Dumb Guy #3)
| Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111283] |
Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20  |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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For those who did not read the previous thread after putting a new aluminum intake manifold on my '74, oil consumption was off the charts. Lucky I did not ruin the engine as it used 4+ quarts in the time it usually uses 1/4.
Here is what I found, today, when I pulled the manifold. I would post pictures if our camera was not somewhere near the Rose Parade. (Grrr)
The Rockwell intake "lips" on the bottom of the ports are 1/8 inch thinner than on the cast iron. The gasket bolt holes on the Mr. Gasket 404 are rather large. We had excellent seal on the head, but the gasket was at the edge of the port lip at the bottom of the intake head on the right back. The gasket was against the head and thin air with only a thread of gasket butted up to the two parts. RTV had been squished out a bit there, but had no real chance of sealing. At first, I thought maybe we had the gasket in upside down, but that was not it. Turning it over would have made a huge gap.
I have a Fram gasket for my next effort. I believe I will put the gasket on the intake, this time. There is plenty of meat to seal against on the head side. I will center the gasket... I may even wallow the bolt hole to allow the gasket to "move it up". I will then do what Randy and I did the first time; mark with a Sharpie, but this time I will mark the gasket and the head so I can tell if it slides down... or up. With the gasket on the head, one would think the manifold tends to slide down the gasket as it works its way down but the opposite seemed to happen... or it never matched. I see no indication that I had a mismatch of surface angles. The intake lips just drifted off the gasket. There was no chance for a seal. Water ports were fine, luckily.
I don't want to get into a 25 post cat fight on the next bit, but tell you what I found after 500 miles and what I plan to do:
The solid 404 gasket in the exhaust port was already partly gone. It was holding well on the lips of the port, but after 500 miles, I can see the exhaust "barking" is intense there. (A smart guy told me about exhaust barking.)
This whole thing started because the gasket blew out at the top of the unblocked crossover, near the capped choke stove. The cast iron original turned out to be cracked, hence the Rockwell. I am lucky it had not blown out into the valley. I will never again put a gasket on without block-off plates even if the Rockwell is blocked in the casting. Just my two cents.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
[Updated on: Fri, 07 January 2011 22:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111288 is a reply to message #111283] |
Fri, 07 January 2011 22:43  |
Surbo
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20 |
For those who did not read the previous thread after putting a new aluminum intake manifold on my '74, oil consumption was off the charts. Lucky I did not ruin the engine as it used 4+ quarts in the time it usually uses 1/4.
Here is what I found, today, when I pulled the manifold. I would post pictures if our camera was not somewhere near the Rose Parade. (Grrr)
The Rockwell intake "lips" on the bottom of the ports are 1/8 inch thinner than on the cast iron. The gasket bolt holes on the Mr. Gasket 404 are rather large. We had excellent seal on the head, but the gasket was at the edge of the port lip at the bottom of the intake head on the right back. The gasket was against the head and thin air with only a thread of gasket butted up to the two parts. RTV had been squished out a bit there, but had no real chance of sealing. At first, I thought maybe we had the gasket in upside down, but that was not it. Turning it over would have made a huge gap.
I have a Fram gasket for my next effort. I believe I will put the gasket on the intake, this time. There is plenty of meat to seal against on the head side. I will center the gasket... I may even wallow the bolt hole to allow the gasket to "move it up". I will then do what Randy and I did the first time; mark with a Sharpie, but this time I will mark the gasket and the head so I can tell if it slides down... or up. With the gasket on the head, the manifold tends to slide down the gasket as it works its way down. I see no indication that I had a mismatch of surface angles. The intake lips just drifted off the gasket. There was no chance for a seal. Water ports were fine, luckily.
I don't want to get into a 25 post cat fight on the next bit, but tell you what I found after 500 miles and what I plan to do:
The solid 404 gasket in the exhaust port was already partly gone. It was holding well on the lips of the port, but after 500 miles, I can see the exhaust "barking" is intense there. (A smart guy told me about exhaust barking.)
This whole thing started because the gasket blew out at the top of the unblocked crossover, near the capped choke stove. The cast iron original turned out to be cracked, hence the Rockwell. I am lucky it had not blown out into the valley. I will never again put a gasket on without block-off plates even if the Rockwell is blocked in the casting. Just my two cents.
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George;
1. Black RTV on the gasket, both sides.
2. Cut out the gasket for a SS plate for the exhaust port in the head, 1/8" larger on all sides for the SS plate. Check the photo site for a pic of what I done. Smear a little red RTV on both sides of the SS plate/gasket before placing gasket up to the manifold/head.
3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time. This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. (This is in reverse of what is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are dealing with composition gaskets here.)
Good luck from Bob D in SESD
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111299 is a reply to message #111283] |
Fri, 07 January 2011 23:15 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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George, Jeff Fraisure, a GMC Cascader in Washington State just lost a new
rebuild on a 455 with a Rockwell Aluminum manifold that leaked oil from the
valley into the manifold passage. What I would suggest here is to get Dick
Patterson gaskets with the blockoff plate already installed. Turn the intake
manifold upside down and using the gasket cement of your choice, glue the
gaskets to the manifold and let the stuff set up. Put alignment studs in
each end of the heads that have screwdriver slots cut in them so that they
can be removed one at a time and replaced with the proper length bolts. Be
sure to probe the assembled head/manifold assembly to measure for sure the
correct length of the bolts needed. Those manifolds vary in thickness from
the cast iron ones, and sometimes from hole to hole as well. If the bolt
bottoms in the hole, it can't clamp the assembly together. There are a few
other tricks, but it would make the post too long. Contact me off net if you
want.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 8:20 PM, George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com> wrote:
>
>
> For those who did not read the previous thread after putting a new aluminum
> intake manifold on my '74, oil consumption was off the charts. Lucky I did
> not ruin the engine as it used 4+ quarts in the time it usually uses 1/2.
>
> Here is what I found, today, when I pulled the manifold. I would post
> pictures if our camera was not somewhere near the Rose Parade. (Grrr)
>
> The Rockwell intake "lips" on the bottom of the ports are 1/8 inch thinner
> than on the cast iron. The gasket bolt holes on the Mr. Gasket 404 are
> rather large. We had excellent seal on the head, but the gasket was at the
> edge of the port lip at the bottom of the intake head on the right back.
> The gasket was against the head and thin air with only a thread of gasket
> butted up to the two parts. RTV had been squished out a bit there, but had
> no real chance of sealing. At first, I thought maybe we had the gasket in
> upside down, but that was not it. Turning it over would have made a huge
> gap.
>
> I have a Fram gasket for my next effort. I believe I will put the gasket
> on the intake, this time. There is plenty of meat to seal against on the
> head side. I will center the gasket... I may even wallow the bolt hole to
> allow the gasket to "move it up". I will then do what Randy and I did the
> first time; mark with a Sharpie, but this time I will mark the gasket and
> the head so I can tell if it slides down... or up. With the gasket on the
> head, the manifold tends to slide down the gasket as it works its way down.
> I see no indication that I had a mismatch of surface angles. The intake
> lips just drifted off the gasket. There was no chance for a seal. Water
> ports were fine, luckily.
>
> I don't want to get into a 25 post cat fight on the next bit, but tell you
> what I found after 500 miles and what I plan to do:
>
> The solid 404 gasket in the exhaust port was already partly gone. It was
> holding well on the lips of the port, but after 500 miles, I can see the
> exhaust "barking" is intense there. (A smart guy told me about exhaust
> barking.)
>
> This whole thing started because the gasket blew out at the top of the
> unblocked crossover, near the capped choke stove. The cast iron original
> turned out to be cracked, hence the Rockwell. I am lucky it had not blown
> out into the valley. I will never again put a gasket on without block-off
> plates even if the Rockwell is blocked in the casting. Just my two cents.
> --
> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
> Best Wishes,
> George
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111316 is a reply to message #111299] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 08:06 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Return the manifold for a good one why should you pay for an inferior
product, it will never be wright.
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 10:15 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> George, Jeff Fraisure, a GMC Cascader in Washington State just lost a new
> rebuild on a 455 with a Rockwell Aluminum manifold that leaked oil from the
> valley into the manifold passage. What I would suggest here is to get Dick
> Patterson gaskets with the blockoff plate already installed. Turn the intake
> manifold upside down and using the gasket cement of your choice, glue the
> gaskets to the manifold and let the stuff set up. Put alignment studs in
> each end of the heads that have screwdriver slots cut in them so that they
> can be removed one at a time and replaced with the proper length bolts. Be
> sure to probe the assembled head/manifold assembly to measure for sure the
> correct length of the bolts needed. Those manifolds vary in thickness from
> the cast iron ones, and sometimes from hole to hole as well. If the bolt
> bottoms in the hole, it can't clamp the assembly together. There are a few
> other tricks, but it would make the post too long. Contact me off net if you
> want.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 8:20 PM, George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> For those who did not read the previous thread after putting a new aluminum
>> intake manifold on my '74, oil consumption was off the charts. Lucky I did
>> not ruin the engine as it used 4+ quarts in the time it usually uses 1/2.
>>
>> Here is what I found, today, when I pulled the manifold. I would post
>> pictures if our camera was not somewhere near the Rose Parade. (Grrr)
>>
>> The Rockwell intake "lips" on the bottom of the ports are 1/8 inch thinner
>> than on the cast iron. The gasket bolt holes on the Mr. Gasket 404 are
>> rather large. We had excellent seal on the head, but the gasket was at the
>> edge of the port lip at the bottom of the intake head on the right back.
>> The gasket was against the head and thin air with only a thread of gasket
>> butted up to the two parts. RTV had been squished out a bit there, but had
>> no real chance of sealing. At first, I thought maybe we had the gasket in
>> upside down, but that was not it. Turning it over would have made a huge
>> gap.
>>
>> I have a Fram gasket for my next effort. I believe I will put the gasket
>> on the intake, this time. There is plenty of meat to seal against on the
>> head side. I will center the gasket... I may even wallow the bolt hole to
>> allow the gasket to "move it up". I will then do what Randy and I did the
>> first time; mark with a Sharpie, but this time I will mark the gasket and
>> the head so I can tell if it slides down... or up. With the gasket on the
>> head, the manifold tends to slide down the gasket as it works its way down.
>> I see no indication that I had a mismatch of surface angles. The intake
>> lips just drifted off the gasket. There was no chance for a seal. Water
>> ports were fine, luckily.
>>
>> I don't want to get into a 25 post cat fight on the next bit, but tell you
>> what I found after 500 miles and what I plan to do:
>>
>> The solid 404 gasket in the exhaust port was already partly gone. It was
>> holding well on the lips of the port, but after 500 miles, I can see the
>> exhaust "barking" is intense there. (A smart guy told me about exhaust
>> barking.)
>>
>> This whole thing started because the gasket blew out at the top of the
>> unblocked crossover, near the capped choke stove. The cast iron original
>> turned out to be cracked, hence the Rockwell. I am lucky it had not blown
>> out into the valley. I will never again put a gasket on without block-off
>> plates even if the Rockwell is blocked in the casting. Just my two cents.
>> --
>> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
>> Best Wishes,
>> George
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111321 is a reply to message #111316] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 09:05 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
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| Carleton Douglas[1 |
wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 06:06]Return the manifold for a good one why should you pay for an inferior
product, it will never be wright.
|
Carleton,
I see no sign of defect. I believe the Rockwell is cast exactly the way mine is. I will be doing some extensive straight edge work to make sure all is straight.
I am hoping that Bob Drewes suggestion of putting the gasket onto the manifold with black RTV and letting it set up will do the trick. The good news is that the other side was sealed well. Part of the trouble here is the bolt hole size in the gasket... it allows for 1/8" movement.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111323 is a reply to message #111288] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 09:09 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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| Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43 |
| George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20 |
|
George;
3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time. This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. (This is in reverse of what is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are dealing with composition gaskets here.)
Good luck from Bob D in SESD
|
This brings up an interesting point. My manuals that were in the '74 show the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. What gives?
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111327 is a reply to message #111323] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 09:31 |
Surbo
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| George Beckman wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:09 |
| Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43 |
| George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20 |
|
George;
3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time. This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. (This is in reverse of what is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are dealing with composition gaskets here.)
Good luck from Bob D in SESD
|
This brings up an interesting point. My manuals that were in the '74 show the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. What gives?
|
George;
Jim brings up some good points on bolt length, whenever you stray away from OEM everything needs to be triple checked. What was the clearance on the manifold to block, on the ends of the manifold? Was the manifold level with the block? There are a lot of differences in composition gaskets, some vary quite a little, especially the port sizes and bolt locations. Really check that out and dry fit everything, it will save a lot of redoing later.
Take care from Bob D in SESD (-5 this morning, no horse flies!)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111328 is a reply to message #111323] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 09:41 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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George,
The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
far as I know).
I should note that the Gorilla Snot was Steve Fergusons idea and John Sharpe
helped with the job. John applied the RTV at both ends and guided the
manifold down levelly (is that a word?) front/back - left/right and aligned
it perfectly before it touched down! We cutoff two bolts and screwed them in
the very front and very rear bolt on the passenger side head.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of George Beckman
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:10 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43
> George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20
> >
>
>
> George;
>
>
> 3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very
slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time.
This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often
and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. (This is in reverse of what
is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are
dealing with composition gaskets here.)
>
> Good luck from Bob D in SESD
This brings up an interesting point. My manuals that were in the '74 show
the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center
in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. What gives?
--
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111365 is a reply to message #111328] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 17:28 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gary Rockwell has been on top of this problem.
It is hard to make changes when One does not know exatly what is happening.
We have sold at least 40 of these manifold and have heard back from
about 4 people.
All the ones we installed here had no ptoblems as our guys do not want
to have me jump in and do it myself.
We have made another change on the current production with assistance
from Joe Mondello.
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> George,
>
> The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
> it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
> the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
>
> I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
> start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
> I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
>
> When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
> 404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
> making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
>
> From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
> far as I know).
>
> I should note that the Gorilla Snot was Steve Fergusons idea and John Sharpe
> helped with the job. John applied the RTV at both ends and guided the
> manifold down levelly (is that a word?) front/back - left/right and aligned
> it perfectly before it touched down! We cutoff two bolts and screwed them in
> the very front and very rear bolt on the passenger side head.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of George Beckman
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:10 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>
>
>
> Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43
>> George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20
>> >
>>
>>
>> George;
>>
>>
>> 3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very
> slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time.
> This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often
> and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. Â (This is in reverse of what
> is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are
> dealing with composition gaskets here.)
>>
>> Good luck from Bob D in SESD
>
>
> This brings up an interesting point. Â My manuals that were in the '74 show
> the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center
> in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
>
> Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. Â What gives?
> --
> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
> Best Wishes,
> George
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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