Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » propane generator and carbon monoxide
| propane generator and carbon monoxide [message #111019] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 07:35  |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
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I just read somewhere that a properly running LP engine produces no carbon monoxide.
Is that true?
I'm not the most cautious guy in the world but I have a deep paranoia about death by carbon monoxide poisonings. We've had some horror stories around here.
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: propane generator and carbon monoxide [message #111025 is a reply to message #111021] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 08:08  |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
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I'm not looking for a magic bullet, just a reduced risk.
But all gas engines produce enough CO to kill you if it's not vented, right?
If a properly tuned LP genset reduces that risk then it's a big incentive to convert it.
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: propane generator and carbon monoxide [message #111030 is a reply to message #111026] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 08:54 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
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I'd have a CO detector anyway. LP appeals to me if it will make the genset quieter and more reliable.
But my CO paranoia is very high.
Catastropies are usually preceded by a series of small errors in judgement and incremental increases in risk, (i work in aviation)
So, unless there is a compelling reason not to convert the genset to LP the reduction in CO is HUGE benefit.
Much better than counting on me to change a nine-volt batery every six months.
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: propane generator and carbon monoxide [message #111033 is a reply to message #111025] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 09:13 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| hertfordnc wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 09:08 |
I'm not looking for a magic bullet, just a reduced risk.
But all gas engines produce enough CO to kill you if it's not vented, right?
If a properly tuned LP genset reduces that risk then it's a big incentive to convert it.
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Dave,
CO is a product of poor combustion.
If you have an antique genset(APU) like most of us have, then converting it to LPG probably would not substantially, if at all, reduce the amount of CO present in the exhaust.
If you have the means to carry one, then an exhaust stack is probably the best bet. (Google Gen-Turi)
I have a CO detector. I have had it warn me twice and I will keep it in the coach as long as I have the coach. I do need to figure out how to test the actual functionality of it.
When doing emissions evaluations, the advantage the LPG engines had was all in the cold start. (The 100+ MON does not hurt, but a the APU can't make any gain of it.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] propane generator and carbon monoxide [message #111046 is a reply to message #111025] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 10:44 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Dave, on the subject of Propane as a substitute for fuel for the onan. I
have converted several generators and welders to run on propane, and they
frequently were run indoors. Forklifts and other such equipment are run in
warehouses all the time using propane as fuel. The real truth to this is
that ALL engines, furnaces, etc. running on hydrocarbon fuels produce
exhaust gasses. Among the components of exhaust gasses are water vapor, UHC
which is unburned hydrocarbons, CO, which is carbon monoxide, Co2, which is
carbon Dioxide, NOX, which is oxides of nitrogen, and a host of other trace
elements as well. Any gas which upsets the 15%-Oxygen/85% Nitrogen balance
in a closed environment has ill effects to mammals (us) All components in
exhausted gasses will have an effect. The real answer is to not breathe
anything but air if you possibly can. Carbon monoxide has no particular odor
and has the effect of blocking the oxygen from the bloodstream in your body
and is accumulative over time. When it builds up in the system to sufficient
levels, you go to sleep and don't ever wake up. No amount is acceptable.
As to whether or not propane is safer than other forms of fuels, I
think that is six of one and a half dozen of another. Propane when it is
delivered in the correct amounts to a well tuned engine in a vapor is more
completely reacted with the air, but there is some level of all those
byproducts present. It only contains about 75% of the BTUs of gasoline, so
the power output of the engine is reduced by that amount, all other factors
being equal. That, coupled with the fact that the fuel containers are only
filled to 80% of capacity in a vapor draw regulated engine like the onan,
means that you need a bigger tank of it to do the same work as a comparably
equipped gasoline fueled engine. I hope this helps clear up the subject
rather than confuses it. I work on them and I have a CO detector in my
coach.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 6:08 AM, dave silva <david.j.silva@uscg.mil> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not looking for a magic bullet, just a reduced risk.
>
> But all gas engines produce enough CO to kill you if it's not vented,
> right?
>
>
> If a properly tuned LP genset reduces that risk then it's a big incentive
> to convert it.
>
>
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
>
> Happy owners of a 1972 Flatnose Revcon
> Here by the generosity of the GMC community
> http://www.davesilva.com/revcon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector... [message #111050 is a reply to message #111047] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 11:52 |
stick miller
Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia
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It is my understanding that a CO detector needs to be placed close to the floor. When you buy a plug-in CO detector for your house the assumption is that the plug will be located close to the floor.
Right or wrong?
Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA
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| Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector.. [message #111053 is a reply to message #111052] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 12:06 |
kelvin
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
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Carbon Monoxide.
The organic chemistry side of my brain was working on something else today.
Mine is battery powered, too. I've had to pull that battery out a few
times to shut the dang thing up.
Should be closer to the floor? Always thought CO was lighter than
"air". But then I never really thought about it much.
Kelvin
> I assume the discussion is about a CO detector, not CO2. Correct? Neither gas
> is a good thing, but detection of CO is much more critical in small quantities.
> Any fire will probably produce CO, while sometimes CO will be present in the
> absence of dangerous concentrations of CO2. I have a CO detector that is
> powered by its own batteries as I felt that was the more conservative approach -
> it doesn't care whether the coach is powered. Some seem to disagree, but I
> don't know why.
> Gary Casey
>
>
> Kelvin Dietz wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 10:44
>> I've had a CO2 detector for years. That sucker would go off when I knew
>> damn well there was no CO2 in the area. Sleeping in the middle of the
>> night with the roof vent over the bed wide open, for instance. The
>> detector is mounted high on a bedroom wall.
>>
>> Not sure I ever had the Onan set it off but it did notice when you fired
>> up the 455. Caught that whiff of exhaust and start beeping.
>>
>> I can't remember the brand/model off-hand. I do know I'm going to look
>> for a different one. If you have one that works "logically" I'd love a
>> recommendation.
>>
>> Kelvin
>> ''73 23' in Eugene, OR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [/url]
>
>
> I had same problem Kelvin. So, I too am waiting for a suggestion for one to wire
> in that I can depend on.
> Dan
>
>
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector... [message #111056 is a reply to message #111047] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 12:14 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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May I suggest that you look at West Marine or other
suppliers of boat stuff for CO detectors that have
more reliable response? In general, boats tend to
have many hydrocarbon odors that can give false
responses by a "normal" CO detector.
I'm not sure where they should be placed as I don't
know whether CO is a lighter or heavier than air gas.
I believe I have heard, however, that it is easily
and quickly absorbed/homogenized into the ambient
air. In that case, location may be a non-issue.
At our house, I have one in the AC duplex outlet in
the hall adjoining the master bedroom.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
----------------------------------------
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: gregg_dan@hotmail.com
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 10:54:37 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector...
>
>
>
> Kelvin Dietz wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 10:44
> > I've had a CO2 detector for years. That sucker would go off when I knew
> > damn well there was no CO2 in the area. Sleeping in the middle of the
> > night with the roof vent over the bed wide open, for instance. The
> > detector is mounted high on a bedroom wall.
> >
> > Not sure I ever had the Onan set it off but it did notice when you fired
> > up the 455. Caught that whiff of exhaust and start beeping.
> >
> > I can't remember the brand/model off-hand. I do know I'm going to look
> > for a different one. If you have one that works "logically" I'd love a
> > recommendation.
> >
> > Kelvin
> > ''73 23' in Eugene, OR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [/url]
>
>
>
> I had same problem Kelvin. So, I too am waiting for a suggestion for one to wire in that I can depend on.
> Dan
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector... [message #111057 is a reply to message #111055] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 12:29 |
scott cowden
Messages: 170
Registered: February 2004
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Carbon monoxide ALARMS [a unit with both a sensor AND an alarm function] are an important feature on an RV.
3 fatalities related to gas and appliances in RV's in Ontario in 2010.
Carbon monoxide is very close to the density of air at approx. 85% of air density.
Given the movement of air inside a structure, a Carbon Monoxide sensor can be placed either on the wall or ceiling as the gas will become relatively evenly mixed.
There are quite a selection of alarms available these days. RV specific, battery powered, 110 vAC and those with AC and battery backup.
As an emergency responder, I advocate units with both a readout and a history tracker to allow much better diagnosis of an issue should it occur. the history and readout gives fire dept. and repair facilities an actual look at what it's seen. if the r/v or house gets aired out before our arrival, it's impossible to tell then what levels it saw or whether there was anything at all.
Play safe, all./
Scott Sudbury, ON, Canada
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 10:09:38 -0800
> From: mckinfam@sbcglobal.net
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector...
>
> That is correct. CO is heavier than air, therefore close to the floor is the
> proper location. Smoke detector up higher (heated air rises), CO lower.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Stick Miller <stickmiller@gmail.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 9:52:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector...
>
>
>
> It is my understanding that a CO detector needs to be placed close to the floor.
> When you buy a plug-in CO detector for your house the assumption is that the
> plug will be located close to the floor.
>
> Right or wrong?
> --
> Stick (I used to be skinny) Miller
> '78 Royale
> Americus, Georgia
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=35133
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] propane generator and carbon monoxide [message #111059 is a reply to message #111046] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 12:51 |
Douglas Norton
Messages: 191
Registered: April 2008
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If you have a 4,000 watt generator, it may not work with propane (see below).
I noted in Jim Hupy's thread that, "on the subject of Propane as a substitute for fuel for the onan........
It only contains about 75% of the BTUs of gasoline, so the power output
of the engine is reduced by that amount ..."
If my generator lost 25 % of its power, it could not start my AC. If you need limited power, Dan's Kippor solution or a Honda 1000i or 2000i located away from the coach seems to be the most reasonable solution.
I have never run my Generator at night because it can let CO into the coach if the wind is unfavorable. When the wind is right I keep the bedroom windows closed when running the generator or 455 and standing still.
Also, if someone wanted and was unable to get help from doctor Kevorkian, a propane powered generator would reduce their options.
My friend tried to exterminate bats by running a bus in his shop with the doors closed for many hours. The bats did not die as he was running a diesel bus (no CO, only water and soot on everything).
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| Re: [GMCnet] CO2 Detector... [message #111062 is a reply to message #111058] |
Thu, 06 January 2011 13:54 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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CB, sounds like you are a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Kinda makes a
person wonder if the West were unsettled in today's thinking, would it ever
be? My boy, 6 ft 4" - 245lbs was assaulted by his ex while retrieving his
daughter from her new boy friends car. The judge told him as he was seeking
an order of protection from her, " Let me see, if you hadn't been in the
vicinity of the Mercedes, no assault would have happened, therefore you must
have been at fault for the assault, not her." Make sense of that logic. I
was in Seattle helping unravel this mess instead of working on a GMC that I
have up on stands repairing brakes. I do know one thing. We can't stand too
many more judges that think like this one does. America, you just got to
love it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Charles Wood <cbwoodsr@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> Let's see...
> I have one for wall, ceiling
> 2 for floor...
> 1 for anywhere..
> ...
> IMWTK
>
>
>
>
> --
> CBWood
> 77 Kingslay
> MWC OK
>
>
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