Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC
| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105704] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 15:25  |
jayrabe
Messages: 509
Registered: June 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Emory and everyone,
Don't want to get a reputation as a negative nelly, because I'm really a pretty happy and upbeat guy. But my training is in chemistry, and the first thing I do when evaluating a compound is look at the MSDS. There are lots available online, and they are completely science-based and not subject to political or financial persuasion.
MSDS rates health hazard of propylene glycol as 2=moderate. Not exactly non-toxic. Lethal ingested dose in humans is thought to be about 3-4oz.
(per JTBaker mfr: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/E5125.htm.)
As always in such things, there is lots of controversy and differing opinion and not a lot of data about subtle effects of lower exposures, and the food industry has obviously persuaded the FDA that the risk can be managed to an innocuous level, but please folks, don't be thinking you can drink the stuff as being purely non-toxic, because it's not. And if you do use it in your fresh water system, please do a complete and thorough job of rinsing your system. It's completely soluble in water, so a good long flush will get it out, just beware of any dead-ends in your plumbing that might not be easily rinsed.
Really love my GMC and this list and have huge respect and
admiration for the experience and selfless spirit of sharing by everyone
on here. Hate to see someone get sick and maybe not even know why. PG is only effectively non-toxic when properly managed/diluted/rinsed.
J
76 PB
Portland, OR
> From: emerystora@mac.com
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:59:09 -0700
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
>
> >
> > On Nov 11, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
> >
> >> It is likely that the growth didn't come from the propylene glycol but
> >> that it came from your tank and water lines.
> >
> > Hi Emery,
> >
> > I agree completely that the organism came from my water lines or tank
> > rather than the factory-virgin product. What surprised me was that the
> > glycol solution would support the growth of an organism that may be
> > common in domestic water lines.
> >
>
> Proplylene glycol is non-toxic. It is also has FDA approval and is commonly used as a food additive in many commercial foods. It is used as a humectant and stabilizer in many prepared fruits, vegetables and bakery goods, Also as a emulsifier in many prepared foodstuffs.
>
> Since it is non-toxic I am not at all surprised that an organism can easily grow in its solutions with water.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105705 is a reply to message #105704] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 15:45  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I think they are talking about pink shit not antifreeze
Gene
On Nov 11, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Emory and everyone,
>
> Don't want to get a reputation as a negative nelly, because I'm really a pretty happy and upbeat guy. But my training is in chemistry, and the first thing I do when evaluating a compound is look at the MSDS. There are lots available online, and they are completely science-based and not subject to political or financial persuasion.
>
> MSDS rates health hazard of propylene glycol as 2=moderate. Not exactly non-toxic. Lethal ingested dose in humans is thought to be about 3-4oz.
> (per JTBaker mfr: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/E5125.htm.)
>
> As always in such things, there is lots of controversy and differing opinion and not a lot of data about subtle effects of lower exposures, and the food industry has obviously persuaded the FDA that the risk can be managed to an innocuous level, but please folks, don't be thinking you can drink the stuff as being purely non-toxic, because it's not. And if you do use it in your fresh water system, please do a complete and thorough job of rinsing your system. It's completely soluble in water, so a good long flush will get it out, just beware of any dead-ends in your plumbing that might not be easily rinsed.
>
> Really love my GMC and this list and have huge respect and
> admiration for the experience and selfless spirit of sharing by everyone
> on here. Hate to see someone get sick and maybe not even know why. PG is only effectively non-toxic when properly managed/diluted/rinsed.
>
>
> J
> 76 PB
> Portland, OR
>
>
>
>
>> From: emerystora@mac.com
>> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:59:09 -0700
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC
>>
>>
>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is likely that the growth didn't come from the propylene glycol but
>>>> that it came from your tank and water lines.
>>>
>>> Hi Emery,
>>>
>>> I agree completely that the organism came from my water lines or tank
>>> rather than the factory-virgin product. What surprised me was that the
>>> glycol solution would support the growth of an organism that may be
>>> common in domestic water lines.
>>>
>>
>> Proplylene glycol is non-toxic. It is also has FDA approval and is commonly used as a food additive in many commercial foods. It is used as a humectant and stabilizer in many prepared fruits, vegetables and bakery goods, Also as a emulsifier in many prepared foodstuffs.
>>
>> Since it is non-toxic I am not at all surprised that an organism can easily grow in its solutions with water.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105708 is a reply to message #105706] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 16:07 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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On Nov 11, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> Antifreeze is usually ethylene glycol, lots more toxic that propylene glycol, without a doubt. Don't have any of the pink stuff, but the label should tell you. If it's proplyene glycol, then it's still toxic if not completely rinsed.
>
> J
>
Propylene glycol is considered non-toxic. However, anything in large enough quantity can be toxic. Even common things such as water or salt. People have died by drinking too much water.
Here is a site about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
Small quantities of propylene glycol is not toxic but I certainly wouldn't recommend drinking a glass of it (it makes a great laxitive). A small residual in a motorhome water line is not going to harm anyone.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105712 is a reply to message #105710] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 16:35 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
|
Senior Member |
|
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"Standard" antifreeze is the ethyylene glycol. This stuff
apparently has a "sweet" taste to dogs (especially) and
cats plus other animals. It is DEADLY poison to these
critters.
The propolene glycol stuff is far safer, but as some here
have said, you wouldn't want to drink the stuff straight!
Dilution is a standard procedure to take care of MANY
poisonous substances. That is one reason that the "new"
low water flush toilets require far more processing of
their discharges than do the old 5 gallon per flush (gpf)
toilets that generally also clean out the bowl better than
the new replacements.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
* D C "Mac" Macdonald *
* Amateur Radio K2GKK *
* USAF & FAA, Retired *
** Oklahoma City, OK **
* * "The Money Pit" * *
* * ex-Palm Beach, 76 *
* * * * * * * * * * * *
* "An unarmed man can but flee *
* from evil. Evil can NEVER be *
* overcome by flight FROM it." *
> From: gmcnet@jcmco.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:23:08 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 4:51 PM, mr.erfisher@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I think they are talking about pink shit not antifreeze
>
> We *are* talking about the pink stuff. Its labeled RV *Antifreeze*.
>
> --Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105720 is a reply to message #105712] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 17:32 |
mlincoln
Messages: 107
Registered: August 2006
Location: Salt Lake City
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I'll put on the doctor hat here.
Propylene glycol is chemically similar to ethylene glycol but differs in toxicity. Propylene glycol is Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) as a food additive by the Food and Drug Administration and is a component of certain drugs. For example, it is a solvent for diazepam (Valium) injection. I believe it is also used in some foods and cosmetics. There have been reports, in patients receiving a continuous diazepam infusion for medical conditions such as unremitting seizures, of propylene glycol toxicity. The toxic effects include lactic acidosis (a bad metabolic disturbance of the acid-base balance in the body) and acute tubular necrosis of the kidney (renal failure), similar to the effects of ethylene glycol. The real question is dose: The LD50 (death to 50%) of propylene glycol in rodents is about 20 mg/kg. If the human LD50 was about the same (a conjecture), that'd mean a 50 kg woman would have to drink a liter of propylene glycol, or a 70 kg man about a liter and a
half, to achieve a similar effect. For comparison, the LD50 in rats for ethylene glycol is about 5 mg/kg, meaning a man or woman might be killed by a cupful of ethylene glycol, or a child by much less. Dogs are particularly sensitive (more so than rats), and are attracted by the sweet taste. They're both sweet, by the way. While propylene glycol's adverse effects, at the proper dose, are quite similar to ethylene glycol, the difference in toxicity means that, assuming that you _thoroughly_ rinse it from the water system, it is probably safe enough in RV practice. I suspect they color it for just this reason, so that you can insure adequate rinsing.
Best regards,
Mike Lincoln (MD)
1978 CK Royale
On Nov 11, 2010, at 5:35 PM, D C *Mac* Macdonald wrote:
>
> "Standard" antifreeze is the ethyylene glycol. This stuff
> apparently has a "sweet" taste to dogs (especially) and
> cats plus other animals. It is DEADLY poison to these
> critters.
>
> The propolene glycol stuff is far safer, but as some here
> have said, you wouldn't want to drink the stuff straight!
>
> Dilution is a standard procedure to take care of MANY
> poisonous substances. That is one reason that the "new"
> low water flush toilets require far more processing of
> their discharges than do the old 5 gallon per flush (gpf)
> toilets that generally also clean out the bowl better than
> the new replacements.
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * D C "Mac" Macdonald *
> * Amateur Radio K2GKK *
> * USAF & FAA, Retired *
> ** Oklahoma City, OK **
> * * "The Money Pit" * *
> * * ex-Palm Beach, 76 *
> * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> * "An unarmed man can but flee *
> * from evil. Evil can NEVER be *
> * overcome by flight FROM it." *
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: gmcnet@jcmco.com
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:23:08 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC
>>
>>
>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 4:51 PM, mr.erfisher@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I think they are talking about pink shit not antifreeze
>>
>> We *are* talking about the pink stuff. Its labeled RV *Antifreeze*.
>>
>> --Jim
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Mike
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105734 is a reply to message #105704] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 20:08 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| jayrabe wrote on Thu, 11 November 2010 16:25 |
Hi Emory and everyone,
Don't want to get a reputation as a negative nelly, because I'm really a pretty happy and upbeat guy. But my training is in chemistry, and the first thing I do when evaluating a compound is look at the MSDS. There are lots available online, and they are completely science-based and not subject to political or financial persuasion.
MSDS rates health hazard of propylene glycol as 2=moderate. Not exactly non-toxic. Lethal ingested dose in humans is thought to be about 3-4oz.
(per JTBaker mfr: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/E5125.htm.)
As always in such things, there is lots of controversy and differing opinion and not a lot of data about subtle effects of lower exposures, and the food industry has obviously persuaded the FDA that the risk can be managed to an innocuous level, but please folks, don't be thinking you can drink the stuff as being purely non-toxic, because it's not. And if you do use it in your fresh water system, please do a complete and thorough job of rinsing your system. It's completely soluble in water, so a good long flush will get it out, just beware of any dead-ends in your plumbing that might not be easily rinsed.
Really love my GMC and this list and have huge respect and
admiration for the experience and selfless spirit of sharing by everyone
on here. Hate to see someone get sick and maybe not even know why. PG is only effectively non-toxic when properly managed/diluted/rinsed.
J
76 PB
Portland, OR
|
The words toxic and nontoxic means different things to different people. To start with, every thing we are exposed to can be toxic. Oxygen is a necessity to us to live, but too much oxygen is toxic. Water is a necessity for us, but too much is toxic. Chemotherapy is toxic but in the correct usage is beneficial. Anything you consume or over abuse will be toxic. It is only meaningful when you can look at the permissible limits but again it is different for different people.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105738 is a reply to message #105720] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 20:29 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
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|
On Nov 11, 2010, at 6:32 PM, Michael Lincoln wrote:
> Propylene glycol is chemically similar to ethylene glycol but
> differs in toxicity. Propylene glycol is Generally Recognized As
> Safe (GRAS) as a food additive by the Food and Drug Administration
> and is a component of certain drugs.
I seem to have started something with my post.
All I wanted to do was to offer my observation that potentially bad
organisms could grow in propylene glycol antifreeze as sold for RV
potable water system protection and to get people's ideas on whether
it was better to fill with the pink and then blow it out before
storage (thus denying the bugs a plentiful medium to grow in for six
months) or just leave it in over the winter.
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Winterizing the GMC [message #105746 is a reply to message #105738] |
Thu, 11 November 2010 22:21 |
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I put it in, blow it out, leave the lines open (including the low spots) and
pour some in the traps. This marks the fourth winter to follow that
procedure. If the previous three are an indication, the fourth will also be
successful.
Byron Songer
1978 Royale by Coachmen
Louisville, KY
Personal - http://web.me.com/bnsonger
Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
Jim Miller wrote:
> I seem to have started something with my post.
>
> All I wanted to do was to offer my observation that potentially bad
> organisms could grow in propylene glycol antifreeze as sold for RV
> potable water system protection and to get people's ideas on whether
> it was better to fill with the pink and then blow it out before
> storage (thus denying the bugs a plentiful medium to grow in for six
> months) or just leave it in over the winter.
>
> --Jim
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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--
Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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