Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Oil galley plug
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237213 is a reply to message #237208] |
Thu, 23 January 2014 18:47   |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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The problem arises when mis matched materials are used in construction of
camshaft gears and distributor gears. Olds knew that. That is why on
agricultural, marine, and motor home applications the drilled plug is used.
The one behind the timing gear is also drilled. But, hey, will the engine
run without the hole in the plug? Yes, but, !!!
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Jan 23, 2014 4:27 PM, "Bill Dolinsky" <Wildbillnick@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think there is a substantial amount of oil floating around if you dont
> restrict the feeds off the mains to the rockers. IMO it turned out to be a
> problem once he restricted oil to the top so fixed it by spraying oil on or
> near the distributor drive gear
> --
> Bill Dolinsky
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: Oil galley plug [message #237221 is a reply to message #237203] |
Thu, 23 January 2014 20:41 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
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Yes do not run the engine without the hole. I picked up a 455 a few years ago as a fresh rebuild with scrap cam 40 minutes of running with no hole in the plug. This engine had all the right parts but was probably built by a Chevy guy so ended up saving a bundle on machine work.
| pyolet wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:05 |
How important is it that there be a .03 or .04 hole drilled in the aft oil galley plug for extra dizzy gear oiling like Joe Mondello insisted? Reason I'm asking is the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody
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John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: Oil galley plug [message #237236 is a reply to message #237203] |
Thu, 23 January 2014 23:03 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
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| pyolet wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 18:05 |
the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody
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It is a simple task since you have not installed the engine yet. Might as well do it as it won't hurt, as long as you are careful with chips, etc. I have old Pontiac V8s and a similar mod is highly recommended for them as well. It is more critical if you run dissimilar metal gears, or put higher loads on the gears (in Pontiacs a higher pressure oil pump, which is driven by the distributor shaft, is a common mod).
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237239 is a reply to message #237225] |
Thu, 23 January 2014 23:33 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Bill, Yes Olds did. The problem that Joe dealt with was one of our own
creation. When the Olds is fitted with a high volume oil pump, certain high
rpm operations will deplete the supply of oil in the STOCK OIL PAN. That
led to restrictors in the oil galleries as an attempt to reduce the flow
rate and as a secondary benefit?, an increase in pressure. Jury is still
out on that as a benefit. It is kind of a yes-but deal. I question the
value in a motor home application. Absolutely bone stock 455 and 403 Olds,
in heavy vehicle operation, with proper oil change intervals and tune ups,
easily last well over 100,000 miles. A lot longer in lighter vehicles. Do
we really NEED high volume oil pumps? I lean towards the not really, but,
group of opinions. But, gee let's re gear this sucker, put some headers on
it, stack on different intakes and camshafts, add on fuel injection, etc.
and the equation changes quite a bit. You rev these suckers up (like Joe
Mondello) or you and me in, for example, a jet boat or street rod? Any
weak spots in an engine design will quickly surface. Then we have a
tendency to attempt to "bullet proof" an engine so it will live in
circumstances of our own creation. That is some of what Joe did. Your
opinions might vary.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Jan 23, 2014 8:02 PM, "Bill Dolinsky" <Wildbillnick@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> So did olds deliver engines from the factory with the drilled plugs? My
> impression was they pumped to much oil to the top at high rpms and emptied
> the oil pan so he restricted oil to the top. I have read his articles and
> while I agree with limiting oil to the top taking more away from the mains
> with a controlled leak for a distributor gear and timing chain, we'll if
> I'd did that I would want the restrictors in the main journals. But then
> never ran an olds, nothing but bbc and sbc and import na and turbo. Oh
> yeah, dodge and fords too. Just no experience Buick, olds, caddy except for
> repair.
> --
> Bill Dolinsky
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: Oil galley plug [message #237240 is a reply to message #237203] |
Thu, 23 January 2014 23:37 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Our Highly respected engine builders of the GMC Olds say to ensure the hole is in rear plug. (and to ensure the front hole is in the right place)
Here is what it looks like during a recent priming procedure I did. Link:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p52584-oil-stream-from-oil-galley-plug-during-priming.html
Photo
And the front hole looks like this. Link:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/discussion-photos/p52587-hole-in-front-oil-galley-plug.html
Photo
 http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6113/100_1674.JPG
Best Regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
[Updated on: Thu, 23 January 2014 23:40] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237242 is a reply to message #237239] |
Fri, 24 January 2014 00:13 |
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WildBill
Messages: 232
Registered: January 2014
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 22:33 |
Bill, Yes Olds did. The problem that Joe dealt with was one of our own
creation. When the Olds is fitted with a high volume oil pump, certain high
rpm operations will deplete the supply of oil in the STOCK OIL PAN. That
led to restrictors in the oil galleries as an attempt to reduce the flow
rate and as a secondary benefit?, an increase in pressure. Jury is still
out on that as a benefit. It is kind of a yes-but deal. I question the
value in a motor home application. Absolutely bone stock 455 and 403 Olds,
in heavy vehicle operation, with proper oil change intervals and tune ups,
easily last well over 100,000 miles. A lot longer in lighter vehicles. Do
we really NEED high volume oil pumps? I lean towards the not really, but,
group of opinions. But, gee let's re gear this sucker, put some headers on
it, stack on different intakes and camshafts, add on fuel injection, etc.
and the equation changes quite a bit. You rev these suckers up (like Joe
Mondello) or you and me in, for example, a jet boat or street rod? Any
weak spots in an engine design will quickly surface. Then we have a
tendency to attempt to "bullet proof" an engine so it will live in
circumstances of our own creation. That is some of what Joe did. Your
opinions might vary.
Jim Hupy
No, I agree with you. When I'm building an engine that I have not had experience with I probably spend more hours researching than building. Same thing I believe quite often a high volume oil pump on a new engine is unnecessary. I like oil at my mains, I like a decent amount of oil flowing over my valve springs and stems for cooling. The factory engine didn't seem to have a problem till the guys wound them to 6000 rpm when there was no more oil in the pan and they figured out that to much oil was pumped up top and drain back to the pan wasn't good enough. That tells me a stock engine should have enough oil slopping down to lube a distributor drive gear. I guess I'll find out, I'll be pulling the intake at least to plug the crossover. Like I say over the last 35 years I don't remember seeing that many olds, remember one that was a total sludge machine but I don't think he changed the oil for 70000 miles, lifters were mushroomed, cam ok.... Last 25 has been doing airline ground equipment so like I say not many olds.
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Jan 23, 2014 8:02 PM, "Bill Dolinsky" <Wildbillnick@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> So did olds deliver engines from the factory with the drilled plugs? My
> impression was they pumped to much oil to the top at high rpms and emptied
> the oil pan so he restricted oil to the top. I have read his articles and
> while I agree with limiting oil to the top taking more away from the mains
> with a controlled leak for a distributor gear and timing chain, we'll if
> I'd did that I would want the restrictors in the main journals. But then
> never ran an olds, nothing but bbc and sbc and import na and turbo. Oh
> yeah, dodge and fords too. Just no experience Buick, olds, caddy except for
> repair.
> --
> Bill Dolinsky
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237249 is a reply to message #237242] |
Fri, 24 January 2014 06:48 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Brother, after building in to 200's of these Olds motors, it's been a struggle to pick the performance stuff that fits our needs. I use an renound Olds builder Drew Koba to assemble our motors, he harps hard about this. To be honest though, there are so many performance things these tech gurus do that mean absolutely nothing to our motors. In a very real way, it is more difficult to create torque at low RPM that revving up the motor and doing it there. HP means less while low RPM torque is king. The "gliptol" they paint the inside of the motor with is useless for our motors. We are never going to run our oil pans out of oil running under 3000 RPM on a constant basis. Revving up to 7K to get a hole shot may do that but who is doing that! The oil hole again is for those high rev situations to pee a little oil on the dist gear, it's not really a problem at 3000 RPM. We do not do that hole on ours. Oil restrictors in the cam galley to
keep oil on the crank is also not really a deal breaker, we're not starving the oiling system! We don't use restrictors anymore, we just cut a smaller hole in the cam bearings.A performance builder wants compression to get hp and torque, a real motor designed for low RPM torque wants low compression so you won't melt your charge card on fuel, we do it with our roller cam profile. This is backwards from what a performance Olds or Chevy guy wants to do. I want good vacuum at idle, not sucking so low at idle you can't use your brakes! I want all new hardened exh. seats to combat the new ethanol fuel making exh. gasses hotter. I want an adjustible valve train because of redecked blocks and heads, new valve seats and all that. God knows where the geometry is on these old war horses today. I do not do the rubber Ford rear main seal-- if it goes out it's all on me! If you cherish and run your coach, the rope seal conditions and works great. I
do use a hi volume oil pump but also a big diameter pick up tube and screen filter. No need to have a HV pump if you don;t give it oil volume input.
See, there is so much more than just picking this or that and letting a performance guy tell you what to do. If you are cruising above 3000 RPM in a 12,000 pound projectile, brother you are driving way too fast. Build the motor for the application we need, it will be a motor that can handle it, cut 1 corner and you are screwed. Low RPM, grunt torque is a killer of motors...
Jim Bounds
------------------------
On Friday, January 24, 2014 1:13 AM, Bill Dolinsky <Wildbillnick@yahoo.com> wrote:
James Hupy wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 22:33
> Bill, Yes Olds did. The problem that Joe dealt with was one of our own
> creation. When the Olds is fitted with a high volume oil pump, certain high
> rpm operations will deplete the supply of oil in the STOCK OIL PAN. That
> led to restrictors in the oil galleries as an attempt to reduce the flow
> rate and as a secondary benefit?, an increase in pressure. Jury is still
> out on that as a benefit. It is kind of a yes-but deal. I question the
> value in a motor home application. Absolutely bone stock 455 and 403 Olds,
> in heavy vehicle operation, with proper oil change intervals and tune ups,
> easily last well over 100,000 miles. A lot longer in lighter vehicles. Do
> we really NEED high volume oil pumps? I lean towards the not really, but,
> group of opinions. But, gee let's re gear this sucker, put some headers on
> it, stack on different intakes and camshafts, add on fuel injection, etc.
> and the equation changes quite a bit. You rev these suckers up (like Joe
> Mondello) or you and me in, for example, a jet boat or street rod? Any
> weak spots in an engine design will quickly surface. Then we have a
> tendency to attempt to "bullet proof" an engine so it will live in
> circumstances of our own creation. That is some of what Joe did. Your
> opinions might vary.
> Jim Hupy
>
> No, I agree with you. When I'm building an engine that I have not had experience with I probably spend more hours researching than building. Same thing I believe quite often a high volume oil pump on a new engine is unnecessary. I like oil at my mains, I like a decent amount of oil flowing over my valve springs and stems for cooling. The factory engine didn't seem to have a problem till the guys wound them to 6000 rpm when there was no more oil in the pan and they figured out that to much oil was pumped up top and drain back to the pan wasn't good enough. That tells me a stock engine should have enough oil slopping down to lube a distributor drive gear. I guess I'll find out, I'll be pulling the intake at least to plug the crossover. Like I say over the last 35 years I don't remember seeing that many olds, remember one that was a total sludge machine but I don't think he changed the oil for 70000 miles, lifters were mushroomed, cam ok.... Last 25 has
been doing airline grou
nd equipment so like I say not many olds.
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC Royale 403
> On Jan 23, 2014 8:02 PM, "Bill Dolinsky" <Wildbillnick@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > So did olds deliver engines from the factory with the drilled plugs? My
> > impression was they pumped to much oil to the top at high rpms and emptied
> > the oil pan so he restricted oil to the top. I have read his articles and
> > while I agree with limiting oil to the top taking more away from the mains
> > with a controlled leak for a distributor gear and timing chain, we'll if
> > I'd did that I would want the restrictors in the main journals. But then
> > never ran an olds, nothing but bbc and sbc and import na and turbo. Oh
> > yeah, dodge and fords too. Just no experience Buick, olds, caddy except for
> > repair.
> > --
> > Bill Dolinsky
> > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> > 1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237261 is a reply to message #237241] |
Fri, 24 January 2014 09:16 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bill,
I saw John's cam after he pulled it from his rebuilt engine. It was the dizzy gear that was trashed. The rest of the cam was perfect. The only reason we could think of for the gear failure was a HV oil pump and the lack of the galley plug hole.
John replaced the cam with JimBs first flat tappet cam design and a drilled galley plug. He also installed a new OEM dizzy gear. That same engine has now been running well in his coach for over 50,000 miles, so I would have to assume that drilling the oil galley plug prevented any further issues.
It is obvious that each different combination of parts will provide different results. That is evidenced by the success and failure stories we read here. Drilling the galley plugs shouldn't cause any negative effects, but it might prevent some. YMMV ;)
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Jan 24, 2014, at 12:53 AM, Bill Dolinsky <Wildbillnick@yahoo.com> wrote:
jhb1 wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:41
> Yes do not run the engine without the hole. I picked up a 455 a few years ago as a fresh rebuild with scrap cam 40 minutes of running with no hole in the plug. This engine had all the right parts but was probably built by a Chevy guy so ended up saving a bundle on machine work.
> pyolet wrote on Thu, 23 January 2014 19:05
>> How important is it that there be a .03 or .04 hole drilled in the aft oil galley plug for extra dizzy gear oiling like Joe Mondello insisted? Reason I'm asking is the crate engine I just picked up doesn't have a hole in the plug as it was built from the '70's book. Should I pop the plug and drill it? Thanks in advance, Woody
Flat tapper cam break in is a crap shoot now without zinc and knowledge about proper cam break in procedures. I know many builders that won't put an engine together unless it has a roller cam. I don't think cam lobes going flat had anything to do with a oil plug not squirting at a distributor drive gear.
--
Bill Dolinsky
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
1977 Kingsley TZE167V102169
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237331 is a reply to message #237301] |
Fri, 24 January 2014 18:47 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Woody,
Great find!
I tried to buy a copy but got an error message; I've contacted Horse Power and asked how I can buy a copy.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Harold
Case solved and closed. Thanks to all for the input. Turns out I missed a paragraph when reading up on engine work in my 1975-1976
GMC maintenance manual. On page 6A-58 it clearly defines that the hole should be there and JM was right on when he said, "if it's a
3/8 pipe plug then you will burn up the cam and burn up the distributor gear....guaranteed!" The video below is about to go off the
free list, so view it and save it b4 the mad' men take it.
http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2009-06/building-an-olds-455
I pulled the cup plug, took out the threaded plug, and drilled a .04" hole, cleaned the oil galley bore, and reassembled it. One
less worry. Now just praying the builder got the cam bearing oil hole aligned among other things. Shoulda built it myself I guess.
Next time. Aloha, Woody.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug [message #237333 is a reply to message #237331] |
Fri, 24 January 2014 18:59 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I stumbled on to this poking around the Mondello website:
http://www.mondello.com/page22.php
GREAT info from Joe!
He was, as they say Downunder, Magic!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Mueller
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:48 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oil galley plug
Woody,
Great find!
I tried to buy a copy but got an error message; I've contacted Horse Power and asked how I can buy a copy.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Harold
Case solved and closed. Thanks to all for the input. Turns out I missed a paragraph when reading up on engine work in my 1975-1976
GMC maintenance manual. On page 6A-58 it clearly defines that the hole should be there and JM was right on when he said, "if it's a
3/8 pipe plug then you will burn up the cam and burn up the distributor gear....guaranteed!" The video below is about to go off the
free list, so view it and save it b4 the mad' men take it.
http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2009-06/building-an-olds-455
I pulled the cup plug, took out the threaded plug, and drilled a .04" hole, cleaned the oil galley bore, and reassembled it. One
less worry. Now just praying the builder got the cam bearing oil hole aligned among other things. Shoulda built it myself I guess.
Next time. Aloha, Woody.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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