Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » interesting new engine design
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| Re: interesting new engine design [message #67668 is a reply to message #67665] |
Wed, 16 December 2009 22:29   |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
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smells like crap.
They claim t it can heat water to 1200 deg in 5 sec.
That would take something like 14,000 BTU (i think) Which would be a gallon of gas in about 40 seconds.
I'm not an engineer so I'm sure someone can check my math.
The site lacks any real data and you have to give your name and email to get "technical data"
A search of the US patent office brings no returns for their alleged patent number or "Heat Regenerative Engine"
Here's my prediction:
In 10 years the world will look pretty much as it does now. Hybrids, electric cars and other non-traditional powerplants will comprise 10% of the market and we will still be burning dead dinosaurs to get around. The only difference will be more LP and CNG.
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: interesting new engine design [message #67673 is a reply to message #67665] |
Wed, 16 December 2009 22:43 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Kinda sounds a bit like a sterling cycle engine...
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67681 is a reply to message #67673] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 06:45 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
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Similar, but a Sterling Cycle is a gas cycle, as the working fluid is never condensed or boiled. This is a Rankine cycle and the working fluid, often water, is boiled and then condensed in the cycle. A typical air conditioning system is Rankine cycle running in reverse. Either could be a practical way to extract solar energy, as the energy is "low grade", meaning that getting very high temperatures is not easy. But for a combustion engine, I don't think so.
Gary
________________________________
From: Chris Choffat <cchoffataz@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 9:43:46 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design
Kinda sounds a bit like a sterling cycle engine...
--
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
77 Ex-Kingsley 455: The Engineer's Motorhome
Scottsdale, AZ
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| Re: interesting new engine design [message #67682 is a reply to message #67665] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 07:44 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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this is a serious effort and a real engine. see: http://landspeedrecord.intuitwebsites.com/services.html
and
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4070490
"In February, Cyclone Power Technologies announced the completion of tests with Raytheon of a Cyclone engine designed for the Navy to use in unmanned underwater vehicles and torpedoes. The engine burns Moden fuel, a liquid fuel that the Navy describes as low-cost and environmentally friendly.
The fuel contains its own oxygen, so it is able to burn in the absence of air, such as underwater and in space, Myers said.
Since they are lighter and smaller than internal combustion engines, Cyclone engines might also win favor as engines for propeller-driven UAVs, Myers said."
i don't think these people are suckers.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: interesting new engine design [message #67684 is a reply to message #67665] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 07:54 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Of course it can, I have seen functional steam engines that were watch size and run some that were 9000Hp (reciprocating). They did get larger, but not much before turbines took over the field. There is little scale effect for steam engines. What appears to be is the material capability and mass flow issues.
OK, it's a radial uniflow steam engine. They have been built before. It uses a flash type single pass boiler, the steam cars of the late 20's tried to do this, but the computer controls of the day were not capable.
It is a shame that they don't release any actual data. They don't seem to actually offer a unit of any output for sale at this time.
The steel that they are planning to use to hold in 3200psi 1200*F steam should be interesting. That has been a stumbling block for steam power plants for the last 50 years. 1005*F is kind of where even the stainless families get a little wilty. Titanium can do it, but I don't think they can do that and sell the engine at a profit.
It is still unclear why they want super heated steam in a reciprocating engine and it does not lubricate very well. That was one of the big reasons for going to turbines, they like super heat.
I'll wait for a chance to purchase a unit.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67690 is a reply to message #67682] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 10:32 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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Although a bit off topic, I enjoy these sorts of discussions. I'll be
naughty and submit some interesting reading material to get our minds
thinking even harder.
A while ago, I came across an engine project I found very interesting. The
engine was called the "Captive Thrust Engine" and discussions can be found
by joining the Yahoo Group "A084Experimenters" and searching the words
"Captive Thrust Engine" or "peroxide" The inventor of the engine is the
group moderator. Her name is Brie.
The Captive Thrust Engine basically used Hydrogen Peroxide and a silver
catalyst to produce super heat and pressure.
Below are some quotes I pulled from the groups discussions. Quotes are long.
Enjoy,
Les Burt
Montreal
"Captive thrust engine
O.K. folks, here is the history of the engine.
I was aware of the catalytic reaction of 2H2O2 with alternating
nickel and silver screens since 1967. It just sat in the back of my
little brain till it was needed.
In late 1967, I learned of Bill Lear's experiments with "vapor
engines", (they used fluids other than water), when it was included as
an aside at the end of a Car and Driver Magazine article on the
Stanley Steamer in particular, and steam in general.
In 1969, I started getting interested in the Wankel engine, but did
not like several inherent weak points in the design, and started
thinking about a non turbine engine that would spin on a single
centroid, rather than a moving one as the Wankel did.
In 1974, I am stationed in Germany, and the first Arab oil embargo
hit. I started looking at non petroleum based fuel possibilities, not
for pollution control, but to free us from energy blackmail, or worse,
the very real chance of loosing a large scale war if our oil supplies
were shut off by oil producing nations aligning themselves with our
enemies. I come back to steam, but need a highly portable fuel source
that this Country can either tap into, or produce with no help from
any other nation. I pull the peroxide up from the back of my brain,
and research how it is produced, and find out it is made from sea
water. I am required to work very long hours away from home for the
next four months, and then am transferred back to the States, to go to
College full time, while commanding a Commo Section at an Army Reserve
Combat Engineer unit about fifty miles away from where I'm going to
College in Ithaca, New York.
It is while I am studying Engineering here that the Captive Thrust
Engine starts to take shape, I keep it to myself.
Fast forward to 1978, I move to the Knoxville Tennessee area and
continue work on the engine. I live in the house next door to the
Associate Pastor of my Baptist Church, and one day, he and one of the
elders of the Church, a millionaire who owns a huge accounting firm,
are visiting, when they happen to see the drafting table with a
drawing in progress on it, and eight or ten drawings rolled up in
drawers beside it. They look at the drawing in progress, and ask me
what it is, and i tell them that it is an engine that I'm designing
that perhaps one day I can interest someone with some money in, and
the Elder tells me that one of his clients owns a machine shop that
does very close tolerance work for Oak Ridge National Labs.
A meeting is set up, and I show the Machine shop owner, giving a full
explanation of the operating principal of the engine with all the
ramifications. He is floored, and jumps in with both feet, in a week,
a lawyer joins the team, I finish the assembly drawings, and draw up
the Patent drawings, along with the technical description of the
engine's operation.
A week later shares of voting stock are issued to each of the five of
us, with my holding enough shares to be able to to push through my
agenda with the agreement of only one other officer.
Several weeks later, the lawyer and I spend time in the Patent Office
in Washington D.C., and find nothing even remotely close to our
engine, and we return to Knoxville to relay the news.
While back in Knoxville, we run into the problem, that I believe,
doomed the entire project to failure. My patent drawings showed the
entire principal of operation for the engine, and everyone but me was
terrified that someone could steal our design once the patent was
applied for.
I tried for a week to make them understand that once we got our
patent applied for number, that locked in the fact that the design was
ours as of a certain date, and no one could take it.
They all insisted that we not submit the principal of operation
drawings, but only an isometric exploded drawing of the engine, along
with my description of the operating cycle of the engine to the Patent
Office.
I tried to explain to them that this engine was so different, that,
in order for the Patent Office to not think we were trying to patent
some sort of perpetual motion machine, they NEEDED to see the
operational drawings. They said that we had a running engine, if they
thought we were full of it, they could always come down and look at it
run.
After being stonewalled for several weeks, the plans that they wanted
sent were hand carried up to the Patent Office, and three months later
the Patent Office said that they could not understand what was going
on, and suspended our patent application for (I think), 90 days. In
the interim, Senator Baker saw the motor, and made a bunch of
promises, and I had to return to Europe.
They said that they would send the operational drawings if that is
what it took, and they would keep me informed, but to the best of my
knowlege, they did nothing, and I heard nothing.
In 1984, I returned, went to the elder's house and asked about what
happened, and was told that nothing had happened with it, and the
plans were destroyed.
I moved to Florida, lived on a boat, and the attempts on my life soon
followed.
Brie"
Another Quote:
"Re: Captive thrust engine
HI Brie,
> OK. I think I've got this figured out. You built a type of steam engine.
> Fueled by hydrogen peroxide. Either by injecting the peroxide over a
> catalyst, the decomposition of the peroxide produced the motive force. Or
> as a binary fuel with another fuel component. The neat part is that it can
> be a very compact design. No boiler, no preheating. With simple automated
> electrical controls the engine could be rotated to proper positon for
> starting and be started - much like a current car. Just turn a key and go.
> The high fuel pressures available give high reactive force. At a cost. The
> power spikes are quite significant.
> How did I do?
> Ron
You did great Ron, the Peroxide was a monopropellant, passing over
alternating nickel and silver coated screens, catalytically releasing the
extra oxygen atom. A tremendous amount of heat is released in the process,
heating the remaining water to 1,425 degrees. The exhaust of this process
is, by weight, 25% pure oxygen, think about what THAT could have done to
re-arrange the chemical composition of the air over cities, and 75%
supersaturated steam, NO pollution at all. The chemical reaction is nothing
new, it was discovered by a Frenchman in the 1800's and is used for the
attitude control jets in spacecraft, as well as the Bell Jetpack. Where I
come in, is in designing an engine capable of using the high velocity, high
pressure steam, while requiring much less volume flow than a turbine would.
By the way, Hydrogen Peroxide is made from sea water, and the engine's
primary exhaust proponent is water vapor, see how it would have been a self
sustaining "system"? I will go into greater detail later today, afternoon
your time, when I get off this cell, and on the laptop.
Brie"
And More
" So from your description, this is just a simple catalyzed reduction
reaction
> of H2O2 to H20 + O and the balance heat. Very simple and elegant. How well
> can you throttle the reaction?
>
> John Z.
John,
Turning the reaction on and off is how I maintain RPM.
On the front of the engine's power shaft is a flat plate that hat two holes
drilled into it, 180 degrees apart. Both had LED's firing through the holes
to
photo transistors. One set was to time the peroxide firing, the other was to
a
primitive counter/clock that would open and close a main fuel control gate
valve
to turn on and off the flow to the timing gate valves downstream that were
for
the injection timing of the engine.
There were two catalytic chambers, placed 180 degrees apart that were fine
threaded into the combustion ring of the motor. This combustion ring
surrounded
the outer circumference of the rotor that was part of the one piece power
shaft
which was machined from a single piece of 7 inch diameter 440C bar.
The only moment that was fed into the power shaft was a pure turning moment.
Brie
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67750 is a reply to message #67693] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 06:16 |
hertfordnc
Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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How come none of these "revolutionary" powerplants is never invented by someone who doesn't care who gets credit?
These stories were slightly more believable before the internet.
But if I invented a real solution to the energy problem and started to meet conspirtorial resisitance from the patent office or Exxon or the Masons, i'd just publish the whole thing and tell the world how to build their own.
There are a million super-smart grad students out there who could make this happen if it were true and would not try to keep it a secret.
Certain elements of the "us versus them" working class myth just don't exist.
You don't need GM for R&D money. Silicon valley is still awash in millionares who are still too young to be cynical. Convince one of them and you can build your engine.
But it's sometime fun to argue...
Dave & Ellen Silva
Hertford, NC
76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff
Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021
It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67751 is a reply to message #67750] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 06:36 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| hertfordnc wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 04:16 |
How come none of these "revolutionary" powerplants is never invented by someone who doesn't care who gets credit?
These stories were slightly more believable before the internet.
But if I invented a real solution to the energy problem and started to meet conspirtorial resisitance from the patent office or Exxon or the Masons, i'd just publish the whole thing and tell the world how to build their own. ...
|
The other thing that makes me wonder, "they" always say that the car companies bought the patents to keep others from building it... even the inventor. The complaint is the inventor wanted everyone to be using his (insert item here). Most of the time it was so long ago that the patents would have expired, so why doesn't the inventor publish the plans now? (Or even build the item?)
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67752 is a reply to message #67751] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 06:52 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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[quote
The other thing that makes me wonder, "they" always say that the car companies bought the patents to keep others from building it... even the inventor. [/quote]
that actually did happen with the GM EV1 electric car. a guy came up with a better battery; finally got GM to buy it. then a company secretly owned by an oil company bought 51% of the company and shut it down.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67754 is a reply to message #67751] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 08:18 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Senior Member |
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A big problem with patents is the expense involved with obtaining
foreign patents. It is well beyond anyone below the corporate level
and I think this is why some of the stuff we read and hear about
(smokey Yunik's homogenized process engine) never make it to
production. Probably the most innovative mass production engine in
the last 20 years is the Honda CVCC design.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> hertfordnc wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 04:16
>> How come none of these "revolutionary" powerplants is never invented by someone who doesn't care who gets credit?
>>
>> These stories were slightly more believable before the internet.
>>
>> But if I invented a real solution to the energy problem and started to meet conspirtorial resisitance from the patent office or Exxon or the Masons, i'd just publish the whole thing and tell the world how to build their own. ...
>
>
> The other thing that makes me wonder, "they" always say that the car companies bought the patents to keep others from building it... even the inventor. The complaint is the inventor wanted everyone to be using his (insert item here). Most of the time it was so long ago that the patents would have expired, so why doesn't the inventor publish the plans now? (Or even build the item?)
> --
> Mike Miller
> `73 26' X Painted D.
> `78 23' Birchaven
> Hillsboro, OR
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67755 is a reply to message #67693] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 08:29 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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"There are so many great designs yet to be developed, I'm sure this
has some good engineering, but did they ever produce a working
engine? By now the patent would have expired, and a lot of water has
passed under the bridge. What happened to Brie's motivation?"
I didn't bother looking for the appropriate message, but I recall reading
that the machine shop did produce a prototype engine behind Brie's back, but
was unable to complete it because of a few missing details. Several people
have asked Brie why she has not pursued the project any further. She just
simply doesn't have the money or motivation to start the whole game over.
She is retired and enjoys the peacefulness of tinkering with her homebuilt
aircraft projects of which she has several.
Les Burt
Montreal
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: interesting new engine design [message #67757 is a reply to message #67665] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 09:55 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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For most of a decade, I worked in, ran or was building additions to an automotive centered test laboratory in Ann Arbor.
We did a lot of very special work for the big 3, as well as AMC/Jeep/Reault, VW of America, and a pot full of first tier (companies that supply directly to OE).
We also were one of the very few labs that an independent group couple buy test services. So, I got to test a number of different things that never saw the light of day. Some, because they flat assed didn't do anything that they promised and some because they just could not be produced effectively or were not economically viable.
I'm not an engineering cynic. But what that seems mean to many is that I can't wait to have the data before I say it doesn't work. I saw or maybe even tested at least four radically new designs for carburetors in the late 70's and early 80's most were presented with closed loop capability. Two of those were very impressive and produced results that at least as good as the designers had hoped.
Want to know what killed them all?
The production capability of first throttle body injection and the associated electronic controls. They were so much easier to calibrate than any carburetor ever (i.e. there is now only Dick Paterson that can reliably produce a GMC carb and then only from the correct castings). It is actually surprising that carburetted open loop engines were actually still available to 1987.
What happened to EV-1?
There were two production series and a yard full of mule level prototypes in the program.
The original series had lead acid batteries. That was the one where entire plant was sold out first and shut down by the new owners for:
A: lead handling issues and ongoing litigation
B: pollution source credits.
These combined to make operation of that group non-economic.
The second series for production had NiMH batteries that were supplied by Matsushita(Panasonic). There was one one actual fire reported, but they did melt the charging connector on more than a few.
My favorite was the one with the Williams APU in the trunk. There were several in this run of mules that had little diesels and SI engines as APU very much like the soon to be Volt. The entire collection was shreaded because GM was petrified of the possible litigation that might arise from a few privately held vehicles that had not been given the complete NHTSA validation. Some of that was because NHTSA could not supply test standards that were applicable to an electric vehicle.
What a Waste.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: interesting new engine design [message #67758 is a reply to message #67665] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 10:03 |
mdryan
Messages: 27
Registered: March 2008
Location: Seattle
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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An external combustion with high carnot efficiency.
Very possible, all that remains is good engineering for reliability and good marketing and promotion.
Many others have tried and failed.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
MDR
Mark Ryan
1978 Kingsley
Pac. Northwest
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| Re: [GMCnet] interesting new engine design [message #67760 is a reply to message #67755] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 10:47 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Les,
I hope she rekindles her enthusiasm someday. A small efficient engine
will become very popular soon as we move toward primarily electric
hybrids.
Publishing her design would cost nearly nothing and could buy her a
great deal of respect from engineering peers.
Ljdavick at comcast.net
On Dec 18, 2009, at 6:29 AM, Les Burt <burtco99@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "There are so many great designs yet to be developed, I'm sure this
> has some good engineering, but did they ever produce a working
> engine? By now the patent would have expired, and a lot of water has
> passed under the bridge. What happened to Brie's motivation?"
>
>
> I didn't bother looking for the appropriate message, but I recall
> reading
> that the machine shop did produce a prototype engine behind Brie's
> back, but
> was unable to complete it because of a few missing details. Several
> people
> have asked Brie why she has not pursued the project any further. She
> just
> simply doesn't have the money or motivation to start the whole game
> over.
> She is retired and enjoys the peacefulness of tinkering with her
> homebuilt
> aircraft projects of which she has several.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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