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Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370471] Sat, 10 September 2022 19:56 Go to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Managed to get the engine started using the dual battery switch .. then put a meter on the solenoid positive and ground ...meter read 10.8v ...revved up the engine, no difference in reading ...kept engine going for a few minutes and battery meter voltage slowly started to decrease. With headlights on voltage dropped further.

Took battery out, put it on charge for about 15 mins, came up/recovered normally.

I diagnosed this as an alternator problem, could it be anything else?

TIA

Larry


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370472 is a reply to message #370471] Sat, 10 September 2022 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Alternator or isolator or connections.
Running, meter center terminal of isolator which is alt output. Should be 14.8 or so or .7 above desired system voltage.
I guarantee your batteries are not fully charged after 15 mins. It would take several hours with a 10A and days with a trickle.


John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370473 is a reply to message #370472] Sat, 10 September 2022 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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No, it wasn't fully charged or anything, just started to come up when we put the charger on it to see if it would TAKE a charge.
Going to load test it tomorrow. House batteries are fully charged so I let them be.

I have a cutoff switch in the chassis battery circuit which is off most of the time; I only turn it on if I'm going to run the engine.
I'll get the alternator checked tomorrow morning and if both it and the battery are OK I'll look at the isolator - Thanks!

Larry


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370475 is a reply to message #370473] Sun, 11 September 2022 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Larry,

Yes, your charging system has failed, but don't go buying parts before finishing the diagnosis.
You have a meter? If no, go get one.
Measure the battery voltage.
Fire the engine. Measure again.
Measure between the center of the isolator and the plate. Should be 14+ with the engine running. Less than that check alternator connections.
Engine Off. Headlights on.
Measure between the battery + and the terminal on the boost contactor. Same as the battery?
Same for the battery - and the aluminum ground plate where things are mounted. Same? Ok connections are good.
Engine off.

If you were good to there, pop the wires off the islator and set the meter to resistance. May be marked as Ω.
Check between the center and both others one way and then reverse the test leads and do it again. If you don't get a difference one way and not the other, things are good.
Isolator failures are rare, but do happen.

Good luck Be sure to tell us what you find.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370476 is a reply to message #370475] Sun, 11 September 2022 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Matt - I have an appointment this (Sunday) morning at my alternator re-builder's place: the owner is making a special trip into town to open up his place for me. I'm bringing the battery and alternator into him for testing. Before I got any advice here I assumed the alternator had developed a problem so I removed it.
I hadn't had any charging issues like this before and because the positive lead to the battery from the solenoid didn't show more than 10 or 11v with the engine running I made that analysis. Now I see the isolator is where I should have placed my meter. Oh well, I can do that when I get back out to the coach and reassemble everything (if the alternator tests good)

Thinking about the role of the isolator and the fact that my battery was down so much after behaving normally just last week, am I right thinking a failed isolator could have allowed my house batteries to draw down the chassis battery?

Larry


Matt Colie wrote on Sun, 11 September 2022 05:19
Larry,

Yes, your charging system has failed, but don't go buying parts before finishing the diagnosis.
You have a meter? If no, go get one.
Measure the battery voltage.
Fire the engine. Measure again.
Measure between the center of the isolator and the plate. Should be 14+ with the engine running. Less than that check alternator connections.
Engine Off. Headlights on.
Measure between the battery + and the terminal on the boost contactor. Same as the battery?
Same for the battery - and the aluminum ground plate where things are mounted. Same? Ok connections are good.
Engine off.

If you were good to there, pop the wires off the islator and set the meter to resistance. May be marked as Ω.
Check between the center and both others one way and then reverse the test leads and do it again. If you don't get a difference one way and not the other, things are good.
Isolator failures are rare, but do happen.

Good luck Be sure to tell us what you find.

Matt


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370477 is a reply to message #370476] Sun, 11 September 2022 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   
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Quote:
Thinking about the role of the isolator and the fact that my battery was down so much after behaving normally just last week, am I right thinking a failed isolator could have allowed my house batteries to draw down the chassis battery?
Larry
Larry,
The is isolator is a heat sink with 2 big diodes. When the fail, they usually blow out the junction of one diode. Very rarely do they fuse the junction of a diode and that is the only way that one could allow the house battery to drain the main engine battery. Even then, the main engine battery could not get lower than the house bank.

In 50 years of boats and RVs, I have seen about 3 diode isolators fail that were not owner caused failures.

Matt from I-96 near Lansing MI


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370478 is a reply to message #370471] Sun, 11 September 2022 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Be sure to fully charge your engine battery before bringing it in for testing or you will be wasting time.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370479 is a reply to message #370477] Sun, 11 September 2022 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Thanks guys, advice heeded. will report back later on when I get home.

Larry


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370480 is a reply to message #370471] Sun, 11 September 2022 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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The alternator tested good but the battery failed the load test. Battery is 4 yrs old BTW. When I got back to the coach I put the battery on charge again and got it up to about 12.5 after about an hour or so.

After reinstalling the alternator and battery, the coach started right up. I ran the engine for about 10 mins then turned on the headlights and blower for about a minute then shut the engine down. I should mention I have a chassis battery cutoff switch that I switch off whenever the engine isn't needed. I shut it off after engine shutdown.

After about 1/2 hour, I switched the battery on again via the cutoff switch and tried starting the engine. No go.

I installed another known good battery and went for a test run, about 5 miles or so, Dash A/C and blower on max. Stopped and restarted several times and coach behaved normally.

When I first discovered the non-cranking issue, the battery, which had been performing normally had been disconnected via the cutoff switch for about a week prior - so no chance of a parasitic draw pulling it down. I guess it just gave up suddenly?

Anyway, thinking a new battery is in the cards.

One thing I didn't understand. When I put the meter on the center tap of the isolator I got about 15+ volts or so and also when I put the meter on the house battery side of the solenoid I got over 14v too but when I metered the solenoid tap on the chassis side, the most I saw was 11+v and this was with the fully charged known-to-be-good battery. Is that normal if the chassis battery is fully charged?

Larry


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370481 is a reply to message #370475] Sun, 11 September 2022 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Matt, I wasn't able to do the test on the isolator as the terminals were so rusty I couldn't budge them and didn't want them to snap, they felt like they might.
..also not EXACTLY sure what you are saying here: "If you don't get a difference one way and not the other, things are good."
Could re-phrase that please? Shocked

thanks

Larry

Matt Colie wrote on Sun, 11 September 2022 05:19


If you were good to there, pop the wires off the islator and set the meter to resistance. May be marked as Ω.
Check between the center and both others one way and then reverse the test leads and do it again. If you don't get a difference one way and not the other, things are good.
Isolator failures are rare, but do happen.



Matt


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370482 is a reply to message #370471] Mon, 12 September 2022 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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Larry,

An Isolator allows current to flow from the center post (Alternator) to the outer posts (Chassis and House batteries). It blocks current from flowing from the battery terminals to the alternator or to each other. Therefore the house loads cannot discharge the chassis battery, but the alternator can charge both batteries.

Since you see ~15 volts at the center post (alternator) but less than 12 volts on the chassis side, that indicates to me that the Isolator is faulty. The battery terminals should be about 0.7 volts lower than the alternator terminal with the engine running. That's the only test you really need to indicate a good/bad isolator.

Isolators are widely available, I'd suggest Princess Automotive or Canadian Tire for us Canadians. Get one rated at at least 90 Amps, 120 or 150 amp models give you some more robustness.

The center terminal is generally the Alternator. It doesn't matter which battery connects to the other two terminals.


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370483 is a reply to message #370482] Mon, 12 September 2022 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Hey thanks Bruce - Makes sense. I knew the isolator wasn't a "smart" device so couldn't figure out why it could be "regulating" the supply to the chassis battery. At the moment Canadian tire doesn't stock any but Princess Auto is carrying a 90 amp model ..that one looks physically identical to what's on board right now so I'll pick one up this morning.

Thanks again

Larry



RF_Burns wrote on Mon, 12 September 2022 05:49
Larry,

An Isolator allows current to flow from the center post (Alternator) to the outer posts (Chassis and House batteries). It blocks current from flowing from the battery terminals to the alternator or to each other. Therefore the house loads cannot discharge the chassis battery, but the alternator can charge both batteries.

Since you see ~15 volts at the center post (alternator) but less than 12 volts on the chassis side, that indicates to me that the Isolator is faulty. The battery terminals should be about 0.7 volts lower than the alternator terminal with the engine running. That's the only test you really need to indicate a good/bad isolator.

Isolators are widely available, I'd suggest Princess Automotive or Canadian Tire for us Canadians. Get one rated at at least 90 Amps, 120 or 150 amp models give you some more robustness.

The center terminal is generally the Alternator. It doesn't matter which battery connects to the other two terminals.


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370484 is a reply to message #370471] Mon, 12 September 2022 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Possible scenario. Your failed battery may have taken out one diode in your isolator. The battery fail you experienced is typical with today’s batteries. My take is in the old days they would gradually start to crank slower over a period of time. Today the end of life curve is dramatic.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370485 is a reply to message #370484] Mon, 12 September 2022 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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John, my experience is that the old batteries gradually lost their oomf but yes indeed these new ones fail suddenly... what's up with that? lol

Larry

JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 12 September 2022 09:00
Possible scenario. Your failed battery may have taken out one diode in your isolator. The battery fail you experienced is typical with today’s batteries. My take is in the old days they would gradually start to crank slower over a period of time. Today the end of life curve is dramatic.


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370486 is a reply to message #370471] Mon, 12 September 2022 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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John and Larry,

Back in 2005, I bought 2 new pickups for work and a new car for myself on the same day. The batteries in all 3 vehicles failed without warning within 1 month about 3 years later. Of course they failed in circumstances where I had to buy new aftermarket batteries. Those batteries in turn failed the same way several years later.

Planned obsolescence seemed to work for them.


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370488 is a reply to message #370471] Mon, 12 September 2022 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Fitted a new Princess Auto isolator, now I have charging to both house and chassis batteries.

Replaced old chassis battery with a new 800cca unit. All good now! Thanks for all the help guys

Larry


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370489 is a reply to message #370471] Mon, 12 September 2022 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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Did you get the isolator that has the aluminum fins? or the one in the plastic case. The plastic case unit is a combiner. It connects the batteries together when it detects that either battery is getting a charge voltage, either from the alternator or the house power converter. Nothing wrong with the combiner, but you do lose the higher voltage from the alternator which is used on high-speed fan to give you more air flow from the dash heater-A/C unit.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370490 is a reply to message #370489] Mon, 12 September 2022 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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I didn't see the combiner, I'll have another look in a sec ...I got the blue aluminum fin unit. A bit larger physically than the one I took out but still fit in the space above the shut-off switch I installed last year. Mounted it using 2 of the existing holes and 2 self-tappers for the lower mounts to the aluminum plate. I never plug in to shore power so no real advantage to charge from the converter -unless I run the genny I guess?

With the temps being what they are this summer I'm running the dash a/c fan on max when I'm traveling -thankfully my dash A/C blows ice cubes even though it's an R134A conversion Laughing

Larry

RF_Burns wrote on Mon, 12 September 2022 20:37
Did you get the isolator that has the aluminum fins? or the one in the plastic case. The plastic case unit is a combiner. It connects the batteries together when it detects that either battery is getting a charge voltage, either from the alternator or the house power converter. Nothing wrong with the combiner, but you do lose the higher voltage from the alternator which is used on high-speed fan to give you more air flow from the dash heater-A/C unit.


Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370491 is a reply to message #370471] Mon, 12 September 2022 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boybach is currently offline  boybach   
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Bruce - On second thoughts I did see the plastic one but didn't really know what it was or how it was hooked up etc, so passed on it. It seemed a bit pricey too at $80, so I checked on eBay and I saw hundreds of these sold under different "brands".

Large price range but some as low as CAD$17 ..of course they're probably all made in the same factory.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/115520865663

cheers

Larry



Larry - Victoria BC - 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
Re: Flat battery today ...alternator? [message #370492 is a reply to message #370471] Tue, 13 September 2022 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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Larry,

The aluminum finned one is fine and works the same as the OEM.


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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