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| Electric Brakes [message #370240] |
Sun, 31 July 2022 20:55  |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Guys,
I just finished the install of the 2 stage Master Cylinder on a 6 wheel disc conversion. While researching brake systems, I am now reading about electric brakes. These systems are installed in many of the new electric vehicles and high end vehicles like Mercedes and Corvettes. They appear to be doing very well.
As heavy trucks are now becoming electrified, it won't be long before they are installed in trucks heavier than our coaches.
We may no longer be limited to 2 or 3 master cylinders which fit under our hoods. Some of the psi ratings are very impressive. I believe the new corvettes have rotors which are much larger in diameter than our coaches.
This is just something I've been reading about and I am absolutely no expert. I probably couldn't hold a brake conversation with most on this site, I just thought it was interesting to share.
I will definitely be following the developments.
Take care all and have a great week,
Tom K.
P.S. Electric steering is also on the road, but the thought gives me the willies.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370242 is a reply to message #370240] |
Mon, 01 August 2022 08:05  |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Wally,
I know you can't test everything that is out there, But I am curious about the electric F150 and the Corvette service brakes. I know we are aware that the parking brake is not designed to stop a moving vehicle, but the service brakes are. Even though the Corvette brakes are much larger than ours, I think we will have to wait until the heavy trucks start adding electric brakes.
Also, Summit Racing has electric hydraulic boosters that plumb into your existing system and further boosts the hydraulic pressure. They are sold with adjustable combination valves. If they fail you still have your original brakes.
Dave Lenzi was talking to me about the adjustable combination valves several weeks ago and was telling me about the benefits of controlling the pressure in the rear and mid axles to obtain maximum performance.
All neat stuff and all coming to a town near you, LOL.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370248 is a reply to message #370240] |
Mon, 01 August 2022 22:12 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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https://youtu.be/hTuBLCaRa3Y
Brembo electric brakes, wet system is already out there.
We will have cheap great brakes in a few more years.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
[Updated on: Mon, 01 August 2022 22:13] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370253 is a reply to message #370248] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 08:47 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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They don't sound better to me, just more complex.
They don't improve stopping distance, they can't
They don't improve road feel
They don't improve cost
They are slightly quieter, but I'm not sure thats a good thing, I LIKE knowing the ABS is activated.
Better brakes exist, the biggest improvement is the use of full floating rear calipers ( reaction arms ) to eliminate the front bogie brake jacking issue allowing all 4 rear wheels to participate in braking. This can be done with the drum brakes or disks, there's no advantage to disks on a coach. drums have a higher torque multiplier.
well disks have fewer parts and are easier to service I'll give em that
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370255 is a reply to message #370240] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 09:57 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Keith,
Most important to me is that Disc's dissipate heat much better. Drums are outstanding for stopping if you don't stop or use them often, but as you know prolonged stopping is very detrimental to drum brake system. I know the first contacting shoe in a drum brake applies force to the second shoe multiplying the pressure applied to the drum, but this only works until the heat boundary layer builds up and is trapped in between the shoe and drum. Disc brakes have reduced mountain brake issues/failures dramatically. Fewer little ovens with brake parts inside running around.
I have lost stopping power on cement mixers and dump trucks on several occasions just due to heat. The truck was stopping fine and then it felt like we hit a sheet of ice. When they cooled down all was fine. We haven't seen drum brakes on an aircraft since the 40's. Vented rotors simply dissipate heat much better, but in turn we lose surface area and application force. Electric supplemental boosters may help solve the force issue.
I am waiting for them to be used on larger vehicles and the supplemental electric hydraulic booster that is sold by Summit Racing only adds hydraulic pressure to the system without changing the original configuration much. It appears it is being used in race cars to apply more force to the rotors. It reads that it plumbs into an existing system. If it fails you still have your original brakes.
All new stuff, we will see where it goes.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370256 is a reply to message #370255] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 12:18 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Tom Katzenberger wrote on Wed, 03 August 2022 10:57Keith,
Most important to me is that Disc's dissipate heat much better. Drums are outstanding for stopping if you don't stop or use them often, but as you know prolonged stopping is very detrimental to drum brake system. I know the first contacting shoe in a drum brake applies force to the second shoe multiplying the pressure applied to the drum, but this only works until the heat boundary layer builds up and is trapped in between the shoe and drum. Disc brakes have reduced mountain brake issues/failures dramatically. Fewer little ovens with brake parts inside running around.
I have lost stopping power on cement mixers and dump trucks on several occasions just due to heat. The truck was stopping fine and then it felt like we hit a sheet of ice. When they cooled down all was fine. We haven't seen drum brakes on an aircraft since the 40's. Vented rotors simply dissipate heat much better, but in turn we lose surface area and application force. Electric supplemental boosters may help solve the force issue.
I am waiting for them to be used on larger vehicles and the supplemental electric hydraulic booster that is sold by Summit Racing only adds hydraulic pressure to the system without changing the original configuration much. It appears it is being used in race cars to apply more force to the rotors. It reads that it plumbs into an existing system. If it fails you still have your original brakes.
All new stuff, we will see where it goes.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom,
You are correct about the heat dissipation with disc brakes, but I have found in out mountain driving the brains work better than brakes.
Keith is also very correct that decoupling the rear brakes from the suspension arms makes a huge difference in overall braking performance. One of the unsung values of this is that you have not had to change any of the actual brake parts to get this gain. It also means that if you take a critical hit on the road, you don't have to scramble to get the parts to repair your Frankinbrakes.
I have had two cars with electric/hydraulic brakes (Turbos don't do much vacuum) so the add in booster is not scary, but still likely to be unnecessary spinach.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370259 is a reply to message #370240] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 14:31 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Matt and Keith,
What are your thoughts on the adjustable combination valves? Dave Lenzi told me about them and thought they had some very good promise as far as limiting the pressure applied to the rear most wheels.
There are a lot of new items out there and I want to keep an open mind. I am sure there were very old time cable brake guys who thought hydraulic brakes were too complicated, unnecessary and too much could go wrong, but here we are.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370263 is a reply to message #370259] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 17:49 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Tom Katzenberger wrote on Wed, 03 August 2022 15:31Matt and Keith,
What are your thoughts on the adjustable combination valves? Dave Lenzi told me about them and thought they had some very good promise as far as limiting the pressure applied to the rear most wheels.
There are a lot of new items out there and I want to keep an open mind. I am sure there were very old time cable brake guys who thought hydraulic brakes were too complicated, unnecessary and too much could go wrong, but here we are.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom,
There are two different issues here.
Reducing the pressure to the way rear to stop them from flat spotting the tires is, in opinion as a refugee from brake testing, a sub optimal answer.
Getting the way rear to stay on the ground so you can use those brakes is a much better answer.
The wrong combination valves did reduce the possible brake action, and that was no advantage. The was a notable difference in panic stop with the rear pressure reduction removed.
Then, there was my father, as he quoted the Ford advertisements that said,"The safety of steel from pedal to wheel." He and my brother worked for several days trying to get the brakes balanced on the Model A that he was restoring. He did confide that in the early days of hydraulic brakes, there were some reliability issues. And remember, they were all single circuit until the mid 60's. If you are old enough to have driven a single circuit brake car and had a failure, you know what a bad feeling that is.....
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370290 is a reply to message #370263] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 21:45 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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What Matt said
And adjustable proportioning valves are for race cars, not motorhomes
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370291 is a reply to message #370240] |
Fri, 05 August 2022 02:17 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Time will tell.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370292 is a reply to message #370291] |
Fri, 05 August 2022 08:30 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Manufacturers will like them because like drive by wire they can have the computer intervene in the control.
But brake by wire, like drive by wire is a lot harder to use for retrofits
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370304 is a reply to message #370240] |
Sun, 07 August 2022 10:30 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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First of all, I’m not looking for a argument! This is just an observation after real live test……… I installed Dave Lenzi’s disc brake system on my mid bogies and TEMPORARILY disconnected the aft brakes. After about a 300 mile brake in I ran the coach through a 5 mile section of road that has hills and straightaways. The same course I ran the coach on with properly adjusted brake shoes/drums before I did the change out. On that course, the coach stopped 50% better with one disc brake per side than it did with 2 drums per side. I wish I would of secured all loose items in the coach beforehand, but I wasn’t expecting that kind of braking performance.
As far as the electric brakes, I wouldn’t mind them on the most aft bogey. Maybe a smaller one that might add about 10% braking. But mostly as a parking brake. That way it could pass inspections.
And I know, opinions will vary…
Scott
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370314 is a reply to message #370304] |
Mon, 08 August 2022 08:28 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Scott Nutter wrote on Sun, 07 August 2022 10:30... the coach stopped 50% better with one disc brake per side than it did with 2 drums per side. I...
And I know, opinions will vary…
Scott
78% of statistics are made up...
I really like the 50% better comment, which translates to: I don't have to press as hard on the pedal for the same brake rate. But is really just makes the brakes FEEL better.
(Brake rate being deceleration G force)
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370318 is a reply to message #370240] |
Mon, 08 August 2022 10:22 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Guys,
We don't even have to discuss it. Within 5 years we may see aftermarket electric brakes for hot rods. They are coming on strong, electric brakes and electric parking brakes are way into production and already on the road. I didn't know they have been on the road for several years. I thought I was learning about futuristic leading edge technology, but I am already behind the curve and they are here to stay. The facts are out, they are good and they are not going away.
Many of your high end luxury and performance vehicles are already equipped with them. I didn't know Corvettes and Mercedes already had them in production vehicles. Just like disc brakes, it all starts with the high end.
Disc brakes are moving to the heavy truck market. Found this from Great Dane: "Disc brakes enhance safety by providing shorter stopping distances than drum brakes and improving trailer in-line braking stability. The stopping distance for disc brakes can be 25 to 30 feet less than drum brakes, depending on tires, speed, conditions and the braking system on the tractor."
Simply Disc are safer and stop better: "EU truck and trailer industry is about 70% Air Disc Brakes, compared to 90% drum in the USA".
Drum brakes no longer hold a candle to disc and now electric disc brake systems can apply more stopping power to the outside wheels when in a turn.
I too am looking forward to the heavy rear Hyd electric parking brakes.
Take care guys and lets see where this goes,
Tom K
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370322 is a reply to message #370240] |
Mon, 08 August 2022 18:44 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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78% of stats are made up (that’s funny! I didn’t know we were talking politics).. Ok, then only 22% of the unsecured items in the rear of the coach ended up in the front after fairly aggressive brake applications! Which has never happened with brake drums on my coach. Like I said, opinions will vary..
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: Electric Brakes [message #370323 is a reply to message #370240] |
Mon, 08 August 2022 19:36 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Scott,
Your opinion is valid. I did my little research and found that the only reason we still have drum brakes in production is that they are cheaper to produce and install in the rear of a vehicle. This is due to incorporating the parking brake in the rear. Drum brakes are coming to an end. Much as the band brake system and cable brakes. For the same reason you don't see aircraft with drum brakes, you will soon no longer see vehicles with drum brakes. We will have very little to do with it, technology drives the future and cost holds us back (for a little while, until the cost comes down).
The disc brake system is that much more superior. Not my opinion it is plastered all over professional documents. Just do a light google search. But all opinions are good and all allow for questioning. It is always good to have everyone opinion and not place judgement. We all can decide for ourselves. We make our coaches what we want and all reflect the owners. I still admire well maintained drum brakes on a GMC.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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