Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Interesting Article on Ethanol
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369100 is a reply to message #369097] |
Tue, 15 March 2022 13:05   |
sgltrac
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Registered: April 2011
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So it’s still the addition of ethanol which prompts the addition of octane
boosting additives to repair the octane loss caused by the addition of
ethanol. Ethanol still guilty as charged.
Sully
Bellevue wa
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:53 AM Carl Stouffer wrote:
>
> https://www.enginelabs.com/news/what-i-learned-today-with-jeff-smith-ethanol-isnt-the-bad-guy/
> --
> Carl Stouffer
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive,
> Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American
> Eagles,
> Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369103 is a reply to message #369100] |
Tue, 15 March 2022 15:02 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
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sgltrac wrote on Tue, 15 March 2022 14:05So it’s still the addition of ethanol which prompts the addition of octane
boosting additives to repair the octane loss caused by the addition of
ethanol. Ethanol still guilty as charged.
Sully
I have no idea of the actual situation, but that article said the opposite - the lack of ethanol required an increase in octane boosters.
"Many gas pumps, especially in the Midwest, offer fuel with no ethanol. In order to create a similar octane rating, these fuels use even greater percentages of BTEX to offset the loss of the octane boost from 10-percent ethanol."
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369107 is a reply to message #369103] |
Tue, 15 March 2022 16:00 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Ethanol is in itself an anti-knoc compound. Straight methanol when used by
itself as a motor fuel will support a compression ratio of 15.0 to 1. But
it takes a whole bunch of it to yield the same number of BTU'S as gasoline.
The real down side of methanol blended fuel is the poor fuel mileage.
If you blend in 10% methanol to gasoline, you get 10% worse mileage.
The only benefit is to the taxing agencies. Cities, States, Feds. The
greater volume of fuel that is pumped into your tanks is a direct boon to
their coffers.
They are presently looking at "per mile traveled" fees in order to
snag all these electric vehicles that don't use gasoline. But, that "per
mile fee" is going to effect every vehicle, not just electrics and hybrids.
It's just another tax, hidden by calling it a "fee". They ought to be
calling it a "fleece".
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 1:02 PM Richard wrote:
> sgltrac wrote on Tue, 15 March 2022 14:05
>> So it’s still the addition of ethanol which prompts the addition of
> octane
>> boosting additives to repair the octane loss caused by the addition of
>> ethanol. Ethanol still guilty as charged.
>>
>> Sully
>
> I have no idea of the actual situation, but that article said the opposite
> - the lack of ethanol required an increase in octane boosters.
> "Many gas pumps, especially in the Midwest, offer fuel with no ethanol. In
> order to create a similar octane rating, these fuels use even greater
> percentages of BTEX to offset the loss of the octane boost from 10-percent
> ethanol."
>
> Richard
>
> --
> '77 Birchaven TZE...777;
> '76 Palm Beach under construction;
> ‘76 Edgemonte waiting its turn
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369116 is a reply to message #369107] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 04:51 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
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I worked for a company in Sacramento that had classes for students to learn
our system. It would run from a month to 3 months. We provided two flex
fuel cars with flex-fuel credit cards for the local station. We
encouraged them to use methanol and told them they could not drive from
Sacramento to South Lake Tahoe and get home on flex fuel, but they could on
gas.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 2:00 PM James Hupy wrote:
> Ethanol is in itself an anti-knoc compound. Straight methanol when used by
> itself as a motor fuel will support a compression ratio of 15.0 to 1. But
> it takes a whole bunch of it to yield the same number of BTU'S as gasoline.
> The real down side of methanol blended fuel is the poor fuel mileage.
> If you blend in 10% methanol to gasoline, you get 10% worse mileage.
> The only benefit is to the taxing agencies. Cities, States, Feds. The
> greater volume of fuel that is pumped into your tanks is a direct boon to
> their coffers.
> They are presently looking at "per mile traveled" fees in order to
> snag all these electric vehicles that don't use gasoline. But, that "per
> mile fee" is going to effect every vehicle, not just electrics and hybrids.
> It's just another tax, hidden by calling it a "fee". They ought to be
> calling it a "fleece".
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 1:02 PM Richard wrote:
>
>> sgltrac wrote on Tue, 15 March 2022 14:05
>>> So it’s still the addition of ethanol which prompts the addition of
>> octane
>>> boosting additives to repair the octane loss caused by the addition of
>>> ethanol. Ethanol still guilty as charged.
>>>
>>> Sully
>>
>> I have no idea of the actual situation, but that article said the
> opposite
>> - the lack of ethanol required an increase in octane boosters.
>> "Many gas pumps, especially in the Midwest, offer fuel with no ethanol.
> In
>> order to create a similar octane rating, these fuels use even greater
>> percentages of BTEX to offset the loss of the octane boost from
> 10-percent
>> ethanol."
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> --
>> '77 Birchaven TZE...777;
>> '76 Palm Beach under construction;
>> ‘76 Edgemonte waiting its turn
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369120 is a reply to message #369097] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 09:16 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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His last sentence is poorly written. Ethanol does not contribute water into the system. It suspends water which is in the tank from day/night thermal cycling into a solution so it can be removed with use. That would be like saying DOT3 brake fluid contributes water into the brake system. It removes it by holding in suspension. Yes they both are hydrophilic, but if used as designed they remove not contribute. Remember HEET, when people loved to add alcohol? E10 can hold 1tbs/gal, then no more. E10 gas seems to go bad faster once saturated. You should not have those circumstances in normal use. Ethanol production allows some VOCs to escape into the atmosphere (global warming potential) but ethanol is far less toxic to humans than TEL, MTBE and other additives it replaced. It adds octane, smooths burning and has less calories, but I find I can run more timing with E10 than todays E0 so mostly a wash. Lots of “racer” guys are doing E85 conversions to go faster on turbo cars. I think Everclear would be a more scientific test for the styrofoam cup test.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369123 is a reply to message #369121] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 09:52 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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I am an old drag racer. When I had my own race car, it ran on white pump
Chevron gasoline, 105 octane single method determined. That probably
equates to an octane rating of 110 by the combined rating method. We could
get by with 11.0 -1 compression ratio because of the altitude and fuel rich
mixtures. But, we had to be careful at places like Half Moon bay in
California, which were at sea level. More O2 in the air there. Leaner
mixture. In those cases, we would use racing gasoline or aviation fuel.
Later on, when I just drove for other race teams, I ran both pure
methanol, as well as a blend of Nitromethane, Methanol, and 2% benzene to
control knock. Of course, fuel economy wasn't an issue, horsepower was.
I learned an awful lot of very expensive lessons in a short amount of
time back then.
This was when gasoline anti-knock compounds consisted of Tetra-ethyl
lead. That stuff in pure form is deadly stuff. You don't want it on your
skin, or in your lungs in any amount, no matter how small. But an extremely
small amount of it would treat a whole bunch of gasoline. That is why it
was used. In those quantities, it was the cheapest thing going.
But bad for people and other living things. So alternatives were
searched for and MTBE got a lot of use. But it turned out to be almost as
bad as TEL. Then along came methanol. It keeps knock under control, cheap,
and can be made from corn.
So, we are stuck with it for now.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 7:26 AM John R. Lebetski
wrote:
> Just for ref pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369126 is a reply to message #369121] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 10:39 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
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JohnL455 wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 07:24Just for ref pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113.
Maybe that's why my Jaguar daily driver doesn't knock when I run regular grade ethanol laden gas? It doesn't have knock sensors BTW, too old -just like me.
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369127 is a reply to message #369097] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 10:48 |
Ernest Dankert
Messages: 133
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ogden, New York
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What is BTEX?
BTEX is not one chemical, but are a group of the following chemical compounds: Benzene, Toluene, Ethylbenzene and Xylenes.
BTEX are made up of naturally-occurring chemicals that are found mainly in petroleum products such as gasoline. Refineries will change the amounts of these chemical compounds to meet vapor pressure and octane standards for gasoline. Besides gasoline, BTEX can be found in many of the common household products we use every day.
BTEX is found in crude oil. The amounts of each organic is varied for summer vs winter blends and by region.
I found the "Article" to be factually inaccurate. Ethanol adulterated fuel has ruined chainsaw, snow blower, weedeater fuel deliver systems. I have documented poorer gas mileage with E10 vs conventional gasoline. Benzene in particular, its VAPORS will transfer the lung wall and can be found in the blood within minutes from exposure. Once combusted you have water vapor and CO2.
In the end refined fuels are a transport mechanism for hydrogen bound with carbon. Vary the amount of carbon and you solids, liquids or gas.
Ethanol as a solar energy capture via corn is inefficient, resource intensive venture with dubious payback for all but politicians. If ethanol was such wondrous fuel why do we see only diesel powered Ag equipment?
1977 Eleganza II
Ogden NY
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369128 is a reply to message #369122] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 11:32 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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If anyone things the price of electricity is going stay low once we hit critical mass on electric cars I have a Bridge for sale.
They will be able to control your charger remotely and probably tie it to your social score.
It's not better for use wage slaves
________________________________
From: Matt Colie
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:48 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol
mghamms wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 01:20
> Buy an electric vehicle and forget this nonsense.
Gee,
That is a lot like Buttgreif advised....
If someone were to give me the 75,000$us to buy a new Tesla, I would gladly replace my 1995 Honda that only has something over 250K Miles on it and
needs new tires.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369129 is a reply to message #369097] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 11:43 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Tons of solar panels, charging lead acid batteries will supplant the coal
fired and natural gas fired generation plants. But nothing is free from
environmental effects. Nuclear plants generate waste heat, lots of it. It
takes a good sized river to cool those babies. The Columbia River, which
drains 1/5 of the land mass in America is warmed a measurable amount by
those plants
Tain't no free lunch.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 9:32 AM Keith V wrote:
> If anyone things the price of electricity is going stay low once we hit
> critical mass on electric cars I have a Bridge for sale.
> They will be able to control your charger remotely and probably tie it to
> your social score.
> It's not better for use wage slaves
> ________________________________
> From: Matt Colie
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:48 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol
>
> mghamms wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 01:20
>> Buy an electric vehicle and forget this nonsense.
>
> Gee,
> That is a lot like Buttgreif advised....
> If someone were to give me the 75,000$us to buy a new Tesla, I would
> gladly replace my 1995 Honda that only has something over 250K Miles on it
> and
> needs new tires.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum
> Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369130 is a reply to message #369128] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 14:34 |
mghamms
Messages: 466
Registered: March 2016
Location: Ware, Massachusetts
Karma: 2
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OK then get a horse and watch the price of oats rise.
Keith V wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 11:32If anyone things the price of electricity is going stay low once we hit critical mass on electric cars I have a Bridge for sale.
They will be able to control your charger remotely and probably tie it to your social score.
It's not better for use wage slaves
________________________________
From: Matt Colie
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:48 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol
mghamms wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 01:20
> Buy an electric vehicle and forget this nonsense.
Gee,
That is a lot like Buttgreif advised....
If someone were to give me the 75,000$us to buy a new Tesla, I would gladly replace my 1995 Honda that only has something over 250K Miles on it and
needs new tires.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369131 is a reply to message #369122] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 14:41 |
mghamms
Messages: 466
Registered: March 2016
Location: Ware, Massachusetts
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Tesla not the only EV maker.
Nissan VW Hyundai Kia Volvo all good cars lot
less than $75000.
Just don't get a Ford. They cut a lot of corners to maximize profit.
Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 09:48mghamms wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 01:20Buy an electric vehicle and forget this nonsense.
Gee,
That is a lot like Buttgreif advised....
If someone were to give me the 75,000$us to buy a new Tesla, I would gladly replace my 1995 Honda that only has something over 250K Miles on it and needs new tires.
Matt
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369132 is a reply to message #369131] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 14:58 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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> less than $75000.
Yeah, F that, call me when they hit $7500
________________________________
From: Mike Hamm via Gmclist
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:41 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Mike Hamm
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol
Tesla not the only EV maker.
Nissan VW Hyundai Kia Volvo all good cars lot
less than $75000.
Just don't get a Ford. They cut a lot of corners to maximize profit.
Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 09:48
> mghamms wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 01:20
>> Buy an electric vehicle and forget this nonsense.
>
> Gee,
> That is a lot like Buttgreif advised....
> If someone were to give me the 75,000$us to buy a new Tesla, I would gladly replace my 1995 Honda that only has something over 250K Miles on it
> and needs new tires.
>
> Matt
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol [message #369133 is a reply to message #369132] |
Wed, 16 March 2022 15:25 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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They will hit $7500 once they have tired batteries, worn drivetrain and
fading paint. Just like everything else.
Sully
Bellevue wa
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 12:58 PM Keith V wrote:
>> less than $75000.
> Yeah, F that, call me when they hit $7500
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Hamm via Gmclist
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:41 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Cc: Mike Hamm
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Interesting Article on Ethanol
>
> Tesla not the only EV maker.
> Nissan VW Hyundai Kia Volvo all good cars lot
> less than $75000.
>
> Just don't get a Ford. They cut a lot of corners to maximize profit.
>
> Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 09:48
>> mghamms wrote on Wed, 16 March 2022 01:20
>>> Buy an electric vehicle and forget this nonsense.
>>
>> Gee,
>> That is a lot like Buttgreif advised....
>> If someone were to give me the 75,000$us to buy a new Tesla, I would
> gladly replace my 1995 Honda that only has something over 250K Miles on it
>> and needs new tires.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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