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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367919 is a reply to message #367887]

Thu, 09 December 2021 19:02

Tom Katzenberger

Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Jim K. and Bill,

No ignition and no spray at the port. No smell of fuel, tbi dry.

I should have a chip as I bought as the units were purchased together. I have not hooked up windows software at this time (Dynamic EFI's EBL Flash with the whats up display). It thought it would start without it?

Thanks guys

Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367920 is a reply to message #367887]

Thu, 09 December 2021 19:29

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

Tom,
I and several others have asked if the IGNition wire to the ECM has power during cranking. This is important to check because many circuits in the fuse panel have power with IGNtion ON, but not during cranking... these are actually Accessory power points.

You need to find a power source that comes ON during IGNITION AND CRANKING. Please confirm this, otherwise you will have no spark or fuel during cranking.

If I recall NONE of the Quick-Connect spades in the fuse panel has power during Cranking... you must tap off a fuse. According to the 1977 wiring diagram, only these fuses have power during cranking (IGNition 1)
-Directional Signals (DIR-SIG)
-Backup/Cruise
-Gauges/Trans(mission)

I believe mine (also a 1977) is connected to the Gauges/Trans fuse which is a short fuse at the bottom of fuse panel.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367921 is a reply to message #367887]

Thu, 09 December 2021 19:40

Tom Katzenberger

Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Bruce,

I installed a fuse panel that operates off of a relay. When the key is on and I believe cranking the panel has power. I say I believe because I will double check tomorrow while it is physically cranking. I believe I confirmed this today, but it never hurts to triple check the cranking mode. I checked 12v on the pink wire to the computer while cranking earlier today.

That being said, thank very much for your help and input.

Take care,
Tom K.

Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367922 is a reply to message #367921]

Thu, 09 December 2021 21:00

Bill Van Vlack

Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington

Karma: 14

Senior Member

On my '76 there's a purple wire that goes from the start terminal on the ignition switch to the neutral switch on the steering column. The other side of the neutral switch is also a purple #12, and it goes directly to the starter. I took the cranking signal to the EFI using a wire terminated where the purple wire terminates at the starter and ran it through a 3A fuse to pin C9 on the ECM per the DynamicEFI wiring diagram.

Bill Van Vlack '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.

[Updated on: Sat, 11 December 2021 11:04]

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367925 is a reply to message #367887]

Fri, 10 December 2021 08:20

Tom Katzenberger

Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Bill,

1977 Birchaven had an IGN spare spade in the fuse panel. I used that to operate the relay on the new ign fuse bus. I attached the pink wire at the ALDL to this panel. When the key is on and through the cranking process the pink wire gets power. The fuel pump opertes and fuel pressure is up.

I did add a new to me spark control dist. I have the original connector attached and one wire to the tach location. It may be my after market Tach, which means I have no connection to the EBL. I will have to review to see if there is any wiring concerns at that location?

Thank you and everyone for their help.

Take care,
Tom

Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition

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[GMCnet] Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367926 is a reply to message #367925]

Fri, 10 December 2021 10:06

sgltrac

Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 1

Senior Member

If you have a low oil pressure shut off switch that could be causing you
trouble as well depending upon how it is wired. I had issues with my Howell
+ Ebl upon initial startup until I removed the low oil pressure switch that
I had installed at the same time.

Sully
Bellevue wa

On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 7:12 AM wrote:

> Bill,
>
> 1977 Birchaven had an IGN spare spade in the fuse panel. I used that to
> operate the relay on the new ign fuse bus. I attached the pink wire at the
> ALDL to this panel. When the key is on and through the cranking process
> the pink wire gets power. The fuel pump opertes and fuel pressure is up.
>
> I did add a new to me spark control dist. I have the original connector
> attached and one wire to the tach location. It may be my after market Tach,
> which means I have no connection to the EBL. I will have to review to see
> if there is any wiring concerns at that location?
>
> Thank you and everyone for their help.
>
> Take care,
> Tom
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

Sully 77 Royale basket case. Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list) Seattle, Wa.

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[GMCnet] Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367927 is a reply to message #367925]

Fri, 10 December 2021 10:08

jimk

Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

I would refer you to Randy V, but knowing you mixed things up, even Randy
will have a hard time analyzing your issue.
On all ECM need signal from the Tach off the distributor to know that the
engine is rotating.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 7:12 AM wrote:

> Bill,
>
> 1977 Birchaven had an IGN spare spade in the fuse panel. I used that to
> operate the relay on the new ign fuse bus. I attached the pink wire at the
> ALDL to this panel. When the key is on and through the cranking process
> the pink wire gets power. The fuel pump opertes and fuel pressure is up.
>
> I did add a new to me spark control dist. I have the original connector
> attached and one wire to the tach location. It may be my after market Tach,
> which means I have no connection to the EBL. I will have to review to see
> if there is any wiring concerns at that location?
>
> Thank you and everyone for their help.
>
> Take care,
> Tom
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367928 is a reply to message #367887]

Fri, 10 December 2021 10:47

Tom Katzenberger

Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD

Karma: 4

Senior Member

No worries Jim K.,

I built and flew my helicopter, which was a hand full and sold it last year. The GMC is one of my new hobbies and I love working on it.

With the tips and pointers everyone is supplying, I am confident I will find the glitch.

Thanks for your assistance.

Take care,
Tom K.

Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367929 is a reply to message #367928]

Fri, 10 December 2021 11:45

Bill Van Vlack

Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington

Karma: 14

Senior Member

Here's a description of the starting sequence for GM ECMs that I picked up somewhere.
Quote:

STARTING MODE

When you first key on the ignition, the ECM loads the information off the PROM chip and performs a quick, self-diagnostic test. Some later ECMs also pulsed the injectors during this period to aid in what is known as “quick start” (obviously helping the engine startup more quickly). All of this happens in a very short amount of time, usually much less than 1 second after the key is turned on. Also during this period the fuel pump is activated for 2 seconds to “prime” the system. Next, the ECM waits until it receives reference pulses from the distributor (or crank sensor). Once it receives reference pulses (indicating the engine is turning over) it will use air/fuel ratio values stored in the cranking fuel pulse tables (in the PROM programming) which are based on the coolant temperature to determine how much pulse width (amount of injector ON time) it needs to command the fuel injectors open. The lower the coolant temperature, the richer the Air/Fuel ratio. The higher the coolant temperature, the leaner the Air/Fuel ratio. Ignition spark advance and IAC valve position output functions use similar tables.

I misread the cranking signal pin earlier; it should be pin C9, not C3. I'll change the post as well. From the above, if the ECM doesn't know the engine is cranking, it won't fire the injectors.

I used the spade on the terminal pin to pull in a relay which energizes an IGN terminal strip since I had other loads that needed IGN power and I didn't want the ignition switch to carry all those loads.

Here is the DynamicEFI drawing showing the ECM pin connections and wiring. Note Pin C9.

Bill Van Vlack '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.

[Updated on: Sat, 11 December 2021 11:02]

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367931 is a reply to message #367887]

Fri, 10 December 2021 13:58

Biggamehunter

Messages: 17
Registered: April 2021

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Make sure that BAT wire is installed in the cap. The 2pin connector is installed in the cap. Disconnect any tach. from the distributor. The 4 wire connector must be hooked up . The module(7 pin) in the distributor is what gives you spark and the signal to fire the injectors when cranking and under a preset RPM some ware around 500 RPM. If you are not getting a spark and injector pulse(check with a Node light) you may have a module that has failed.

Michael Orlandi Fairfield, Ca 1973 GMC Canyonlands Lenzi knuckles/ hubs

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367932 is a reply to message #367887]

Fri, 10 December 2021 14:16

Tom Katzenberger

Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Guys,

Thank you so much for all the help. Mike I believe you are right. I called Howell and spoke with Troy. Within 5 min he diagnosed and believes it is the coil, but could also be the module based on your observations. I will get a new Cap and Module. Does anyone have a preferred part number that works well with the Howell set up?

I have to run out today, but plan on enjoying the day in the shop tomorrow. I would love to get it running well tomorrow.

thank you again for all the help, it is very much appreciated.

Take care,
Tom K

Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition

[Updated on: Fri, 10 December 2021 14:16]

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367937 is a reply to message #367887]

Fri, 10 December 2021 16:35

Biggamehunter

Messages: 17
Registered: April 2021

Karma: 0

Junior Member

I like Delco . 1987 Olds 5.0L Vin Y I think. The aftermarket ones are a crap shoot .

Michael Orlandi Fairfield, Ca 1973 GMC Canyonlands Lenzi knuckles/ hubs

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[GMCnet] Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367939 is a reply to message #367932]

Fri, 10 December 2021 17:29

jimk

Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Michael,
Node light is a tool that i keep in my Cad turbo unit as it is a quick way
to know if the injectors are getting power,
I'm getting so old, I forgot that I keep it in the coach.
Thanks for suggesting that.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 2:29 PM wrote:

> Guys,
>
> Thank you so much for all the help. Mike I believe you are right. I called
> Howell and spoke with Troy. Within 5 min he diagnosed and believes it is
> the coil, but could also be the module based on you observations. I will
> get a new Cap and Module. Does anyone have a preferred part number that
> works
> well with the Howell set up?
>
> I have to run out today, but plan on enjoying the day in the shop
> tomorrow. I would love to get it running well tomorrow.
>
> thank you again for all the help, it is very much appreciated.
>
> Take care,
> Tom K
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367940 is a reply to message #367887]

Fri, 10 December 2021 18:38

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

Tom,
I'm confused, are you using the standard HEI ignition distributor that came with your 1977 455? or have you switched to an Electronic Spark Control (ESC) distributor??

The ESC distributor has no vacuum advance can on the side and has 4 wires going to the ECM.

The ECM needs to see pulses from the distributor before it operates the injectors. If you are running a HEI (or points) ignition, there is a single wire that connects to the TACH connector. There is also a small circuit board buried in the wiring harness that shifts the level from 12V pulses to 5V. If you are running ESC, there are 4 wires going to the ECM (and the small circuit board, if present, must be removed).

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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[GMCnet] Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367941 is a reply to message #367932]

Sat, 11 December 2021 01:20

sgltrac

Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Springfield ignition.

Sully
Bellevue wa
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 2:28 PM wrote:

> Guys,
>
> Thank you so much for all the help. Mike I believe you are right. I called
> Howell and spoke with Troy. Within 5 min he diagnosed and believes it is
> the coil, but could also be the module based on you observations. I will
> get a new Cap and Module. Does anyone have a preferred part number that
> works
> well with the Howell set up?
>
> I have to run out today, but plan on enjoying the day in the shop
> tomorrow. I would love to get it running well tomorrow.
>
> thank you again for all the help, it is very much appreciated.
>
> Take care,
> Tom K
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

Sully 77 Royale basket case. Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list) Seattle, Wa.

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367945 is a reply to message #367887]

Sat, 11 December 2021 07:58

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

IF you have the EBL upgrade, all that is required to pulse the injectors is pulses from the distributor. I asked this question to BobR of DynamicEFI while remotely troubleshooting another GMCer's issues and this was his response:

> Can you advise me the input signal requirements that must be met for the EBL to start firing the injectors during startup.

>>All that is required is the distributor reference pulses (DRPs). The crank signal is not required, that just lets the ECM know when to test the fuel pump relay.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367948 is a reply to message #367945]

Sat, 11 December 2021 11:00

Bill Van Vlack

Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington

Karma: 14

Senior Member

RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 11 December 2021 07:58

IF you have the EBL upgrade, all that is required to pulse the injectors is pulses from the distributor. I asked this question to BobR of DynamicEFI while remotely troubleshooting another GMCer's issues and this was his response:

> Can you advise me the input signal requirements that must be met for the EBL to start firing the injectors during startup.

>>All that is required is the distributor reference pulses (DRPs). The crank signal is not required, that just lets the ECM know when to test the fuel pump relay.

Good to know for certain; thanks Bruce! Do you know what the fuel pump relay test is? I suppose it tests for fuel pump relay power on pin B2 while cranking for diagnostics.

Bill Van Vlack '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.

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Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367951 is a reply to message #367887]

Sat, 11 December 2021 13:45

Tom Katzenberger

Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Guys,

More mental puzzle for those in the know.

I got good spark. Switched Distributor cap and coil.

Fuel pump came on pegged fuel pressure gauge at 30 pounds. No fuel through injectors. Engine runs when fuel is poured in throttle body.

I cracked a fuel line at the gauge to see if I was in fact getting pressure. Yes I am, but don't know how much as the gauge is now toast and remains pegged at 30 pounds.

Some where I read about physically tapping the injectors with a wooden screw driver. Any tips from this point are welcome.

Spark is no problem, Pump sounds and pressure seems to exist. When the engine quits I hear a squeal from around the throttle body?

Should I take an electric reading at each injector connector while cranking? Also crack the supply line at the throttle body to check for fuel?

I think I am down to a simple fuel issue at the throttle body. I have no way to measure fuel pressure at this time.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition

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[GMCnet] Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367952 is a reply to message #367887]

Sat, 11 December 2021 13:52

jimk

Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 11:52 AM Jim Kanomata wrote:

> dDont worry about the pressure now.
> make the injectors pulse .
> The pressure of 30 is at the entrance, the built in regulator gets it down
> to around 12 .
> Make sure the tack sensor is tied in, otherwise no pulse of injectors.
>
> On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 11:45 AM wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>> More mental puzzle for those in the know.
>>
>> I got good spark. Switched Distributor cap and coil.
>>
>> Fuel pump came on pegged fuel pressure gauge at 30 pounds. No fuel
>> through injectors. Engine runs when fuel is poured in throttle body.
>>
>> I cracked a fuel line at the gauge to see if I was in fact getting
>> pressure. Yes I am, but don't know how much as the gauge is now toast and
>> remains
>> pegged at 30 pounds.
>>
>> Some where I read about physically tapping the injectors with a wooden
>> screw driver. Any tips from this point are welcome.
>>
>> Spark is no problem, Pump sounds and pressure seems to exist. When the
>> engine quits I hear a squeal from around the throttle body?
>>
>> Should I take an electric reading at each injector connector while
>> cranking? Also crack the supply line at the throttle body to check for fuel?
>>
>> I think I am down to a simple fuel issue at the throttle body. I have no
>> way to measure fuel pressure at this time.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom
>> --
>> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
>> Kingsville, Maryland,
>> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata ASE
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.gmcrvparts.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

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[GMCnet] Re: EFI and Electronic Ignition Initial Start Up Questions [message #367953 is a reply to message #367951]

Sat, 11 December 2021 13:52

jimk

Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

dDont worry about the pressure now.
make the injectors pulse .
The pressure of 30 is at the entrance, the built in regulator gets it down
to around 12 .
Make sure the tack sensor is tied in, otherwise no pulse of injectors.

On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 11:45 AM wrote:

> Guys,
>
> More mental puzzle for those in the know.
>
> I got good spark. Switched Distributor cap and coil.
>
> Fuel pump came on pegged fuel pressure gauge at 30 pounds. No fuel through
> injectors. Engine runs when fuel is poured in throttle body.
>
> I cracked a fuel line at the gauge to see if I was in fact getting
> pressure. Yes I am, but don't know how much as the gauge is now toast and
> remains
> pegged at 30 pounds.
>
> Some where I read about physically tapping the injectors with a wooden
> screw driver. Any tips from this point are welcome.
>
> Spark is no problem, Pump sounds and pressure seems to exist. When the
> engine quits I hear a squeal from around the throttle body?
>
> Should I take an electric reading at each injector connector while
> cranking? Also crack the supply line at the throttle body to check for fuel?
>
> I think I am down to a simple fuel issue at the throttle body. I have no
> way to measure fuel pressure at this time.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>

--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:

Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

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