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New and more accessible timing marks [message #364504] Fri, 04 June 2021 17:42 Go to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   Canada
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When I was checking the timing I one day I thought to myself, “If every time of the thousands (no joke) that I have checked ignition timing on an engine it was as hard as this, I would have found a better way.” Well, when I start thinking about things, this can be dangerous. I didn’t have to look very far. All I had to do was remember that most all the test engines I have had responsibility for over decades of career time in the test laboratories had the timing marks on the flywheel.

http://http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7363/Gunsight_timing.pdf

Email guys, this is also posted on the photo site as a *.pdf ready for printing.

Gunsight timing By Matthew Colie 04 June 2021
New timing marks for Oldsmobile in GMC.

Anybody that has tried to check, or worse yet, set the timing in any GMC will see the value in this mod in just the next paragraph. It is also interesting to mention that my engine now has a scale such that even a single degree of the actual timing is very obvious.

My engine has a second set of timing marks that are visible through a hole in the bell housing. This is easier to see and way easier to get to than those on the damper. There is also a reference mark in the edge of the rear for the block. It takes very little effort to do this mod when the engine is out, but I am sure it could be done with the engine and transmission in place..

The picture posted here, (sorry e mail guys I will post the document with the pictures site later) is indeed what you actually get to see. For those that have not set timing, I have also included a picture (the best I could do) of the OE marks. This was the best view I cold get with my camera and those that have done this will admit that this is about as good as it gets.

Discussion of my mod for those that care.
Talk about convenience, it is also just about next to the distributor, so if adjustment is desired it is convenient to do. I also put an adapter in the cigar lighter (here after referred to as the DC mousehole) to get me the DC for the timing light. This works, but it is less than ideal because the engine hatch is in the way. I did have a plan to add a power point that is more convenient, but that still has not happened.

Using a holesaw to make the window in the bell housing is simple. The hardest part is getting the crank to 0° to make the marks. When my engine was on the work stand, this was real easy. So, I made a bunch and made the reference on the back of the block casting as well. Unfortunately, that first set missed. I had marked the top of the teeth and this was not very visible in the final assembly. I just made new marks both paint and engraved on the rear face of the teeth.

In Figure 2, the reference mark is hidden by the vacuum pot.

The real big gain here is the resolution here. There are 144 teeth on the ring gear. So, that is 2.5° per tooth. Between 2 teeth is 1.25° That is just a whole lot bigger and clearer than peering down though the belts and hoses at 1/4 inch = 4°. The next huge gain is the fact that I was now next to the distributor and could watch the mark move when I moved it and check that it stayed there.

The development story:

When I was checking the timing I one day I thought to myself, “If every time of the thousands (no joke) that I have checked ignition timing on an engine it was as hard as this, I would have found a better way.” Well, when I start thinking about things, this can be dangerous. I didn’t have to look very far. All I had to do was remember that most all the test engines I have had responsibility for over decades of career time in the test laboratories had the timing marks on the flywheel.

First, there is an important difference with both the majority of test engines and those installed in over the road vehicles. That difference is Flywheels with degree markings engraved. Even the durability engines on waterbrakes still have them, and if they have a bell housing at all, it has a window with a pointer. So, this is not an original idea that I can take credit for, it is just a technology transfer that took way too long.

For those that might attempt this, it is way easier to move the crank when the spark plugs are removed. The hole in the bell housing does not break the flange at the margin. I drilled that with the transmission bolted up and was able to capture the loose piece, but the engine was still out of the coach. The hole is 1-1/8 because that is a good size to have for running pipe.

I first marked the teeth on the top but as soon as I bolted on the transmission, that mistake was obvious. And when in the coach it was a bigger problem. That is when I went to the red paint. This is the view you might have if you cut a big hole in the lift of the top step.

Two interesting notes: Figure 2 was taken using the timing light flash as light.
The syringe is in that picture because I lost my golf tee. There are two sets of clips on the power lead because I was trying out an HF adjustable timing light. No report on that today.


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #364509 is a reply to message #364504] Sat, 05 June 2021 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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Matt's link is an image so it can't be copied an pasted. Here is a text link to the pdf that includes photos.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7363/Gunsight_timing.pdf

Even easier, at the moment it shows up as a recent posting when you enter the home page of gmcmhphotos.com


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #364510 is a reply to message #364504] Sat, 05 June 2021 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjw   United States
Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005
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Senior Member
Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 04 June 2021 18:42
When I was checking the timing I one day I thought to myself, “If every time of the thousands (no joke) that I have checked ignition timing on an engine it was as hard as this, I would have found a better way.” Well, when I start thinking about things, this can be dangerous. I didn’t have to look very far. All I had to do was remember that most all the test engines I have had responsibility for over decades of career time in the test laboratories had the timing marks on the flywheel.

http://http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7363/Gunsight_timing.pdf

Email guys, this is also posted on the photo site as a *.pdf ready for printing.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gunsight-timing/p68233-gunsight-timing.html

This link will take you to the page that has the documents. I could not get the other links to work.

Neat idea and something I will get around to doing someday.



Richard
76 Palm Beach
SE Michigan
www.PalmBeachGMC.com

Roller Cam 455, TBI+EBL, 3.42 FD, 4 Bag, Macerator, Lenzi (brakes, vacuum system, front end stuff), Manny Tranny, vacuum step, Tankless + OEM water heaters.
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #364515 is a reply to message #364504] Sat, 05 June 2021 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dsmithy is currently offline  dsmithy   United States
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
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Senior Member
Matt,
Can I assume that the picture which includes the vacuum actuator on the distributor indicates the best location for the hole in the bellhousing? Or, can the hole be located anywhere based on drilling ease/access if TDC on cylinder one is located accurately? Is there a distance from the mounting flange (to catch the flywheel gear accurately) that is available or is it a guess? Is it safe to drill on an installed engine/bellhousing? What are the consequences of losing the cutout disc from drilling (which clumsy/unlucky people {me} will do).

I ask this because timing has been a frustration for me for the 25 years I've owned my coach. Basically I've ignored it in the absence of problems. That has meant that I've been, if you explore the margins, getting lousy mileage, experience a perfectly running engine (?), or flirting with disaster with advanced timing, or some less than optimal blending of the three.

There are limited mods to stock which are universally accepted and generally not up for debate. The Pertronix lobe sensing unit (for my year GMC), blocking the intake exhaust crossover, the flywheel timing for the Onan, and alloy wheels come to mind first. Everyone has their favorites based on their willingness to pay or dig into the innards of their coach. I suspect your "Gunsight Timing" would easily join the list if the bar were lowered just a bit for people like me who see a great idea but are a little intimidated by the process. Perhaps you have a friend out there with a coach "in process" who could do the modification and document it for us rabble?
Doug


Douglas & Virginia Smith, dsmithy18 at gmail, Lincoln Nebraska, ’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo"; Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #364516 is a reply to message #364515] Sat, 05 June 2021 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   Canada
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dsmithy wrote on Sat, 05 June 2021 19:56
Matt,
Can I assume that the picture which includes the vacuum actuator on the distributor indicates the best location for the hole in the bellhousing? Or, can the hole be located anywhere based on drilling ease/access if TDC on cylinder one is located accurately? Is there a distance from the mounting flange (to catch the flywheel gear accurately) that is available or is it a guess? Is it safe to drill on an installed engine/bellhousing? What are the consequences of losing the cutout disc from drilling (which clumsy/unlucky people {me} will do).

I ask this because timing has been a frustration for me for the 25 years I've owned my coach. Basically I've ignored it in the absence of problems. That has meant that I've been, if you explore the margins, getting lousy mileage, experience a perfectly running engine (?), or flirting with disaster with advanced timing, or some less than optimal blending of the three.

There are limited mods to stock which are universally accepted and generally not up for debate. The Pertronix lobe sensing unit (for my year GMC), blocking the intake exhaust crossover, the flywheel timing for the Onan, and alloy wheels come to mind first. Everyone has their favorites based on their willingness to pay or dig into the innards of their coach. I suspect your "Gunsight Timing" would easily join the list if the bar were lowered just a bit for people like me who see a great idea but are a little intimidated by the process. Perhaps you have a friend out there with a coach "in process" who could do the modification and document it for us rabble?
Doug
Doug,

Timing has only been a frustration of mine for only 16 years..... (Chaumière came here in 2006.)
You have hit my favorite mods, but I have yet to afford the cost of alloy wheels.

The location of the hole in the bellhousing is completely arbitrary. Make it where it works for you. It only really needs to let you see teeth for calibration. But do create a reference mark on the block casting. And yes, I kind of wish I had located it differently than I did, but it works. I marked teeth and put the reference mark in the block while the engine was on a work stand. I was also checking cam timing and lots of other things.

I would try to back it away from the bellhousing flange just because you don't need to weaken that area. It cannot be a highly stressed area, but I am sort of (OK - Really) paranoid. Punch the hole, and if you loose the plug, pull the splash cover off the lower bell housing. There was room for me to get it out. But I was also thinking I might have to walk it up to the starter hole. There is nothing in there that can be hurt. It you take it slowly, you should be able to cut until it is just hanging on and break it back out of the hole. I did, but the engine and transmission when in the front frame yet to be installed.

That Pertronix 1181LS is just right up there with canned beer and colored sox in my book. I have hated hanging by my toes to set timing all those 16 year and one major overhaul. I'm about to put in a rebuild distributor with Dick Paterson parts. I know I am going to appreciate it then.

Let me think about involving another. I do have GM friends, but this might tax their sense of humor.

If you do have other questions, I here.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
[GMCnet] Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #364517 is a reply to message #364516] Sat, 05 June 2021 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dsmithy is currently offline  dsmithy   United States
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Colored socks… Not so sure.
Sliced Bread… For Sure.
Pertronix… Best mod ever.
Gunshot Timing… Best idea ever.

Did I ever tell you about the time the alternator belt threw my timing light into my face? Maybe over an adult beverage sometime.
D

> On Jun 5, 2021, at 10:12 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
> dsmithy wrote on Sat, 05 June 2021 19:56
>> Matt,
>> Can I assume that the picture which includes the vacuum actuator on the distributor indicates the best location for the hole in the bellhousing?
>> Or, can the hole be located anywhere based on drilling ease/access if TDC on cylinder one is located accurately? Is there a distance from the
>> mounting flange (to catch the flywheel gear accurately) that is available or is it a guess? Is it safe to drill on an installed engine/bellhousing?
>> What are the consequences of losing the cutout disc from drilling (which clumsy/unlucky people {me} will do).
>>
>> I ask this because timing has been a frustration for me for the 25 years I've owned my coach. Basically I've ignored it in the absence of
>> problems. That has meant that I've been, if you explore the margins, getting lousy mileage, experience a perfectly running engine (?), or flirting
>> with disaster with advanced timing, or some less than optimal blending of the three.
>>
>> There are limited mods to stock which are universally accepted and generally not up for debate. The Pertronix lobe sensing unit (for my year GMC),
>> blocking the intake exhaust crossover, the flywheel timing for the Onan, and alloy wheels come to mind first. Everyone has their favorites based on
>> their willingness to pay or dig into the innards of their coach. I suspect your "Gunsight Timing" would easily join the list if the bar were lowered
>> just a bit for people like me who see a great idea but are a little intimidated by the process. Perhaps you have a friend out there with a coach "in
>> process" who could do the modification and document it for us rabble?
>> Doug
>
> Doug,
>
> Timing has only been a frustration of mine for only 16 years..... (Chaumière came here in 2006.)
> You have hit my favorite mods, but I have yet to afford the cost of alloy wheels.
>
> The location of the hole in the bellhousing is completely arbitrary. Make it where it works for you. It only really needs to let you see teeth for
> calibration. But do create a reference mark on the block casting. And yes, I kind of wish I had located it differently than I did, but it works. I
> marked teeth and put the reference mark in the block while the engine was on a work stand. I was also checking cam timing and lots of other things.
>
>
> I would try to back it away from the bellhousing flange just because you don't need to weaken that area. It cannot be a highly stressed area, but I
> am sort of (OK - Really) paranoid. Punch the hole, and if you loose the plug, pull the splash cover off the lower bell housing. There was room for
> me to get it out. But I was also thinking I might have to walk it up to the starter hole. There is nothing in there that can be hurt. It you take
> it slowly, you should be able to cut until it is just hanging on and break it back out of the hole. I did, but the engine and transmission when in
> the front frame yet to be installed.
>
> That Pertronix 1181LS is just right up there with canned beer and colored sox in my book. I have hated hanging by my toes to set timing all those 16
> year and one major overhaul. I'm about to put in a rebuild distributor with Dick Paterson parts. I know I am going to appreciate it then.
>
> Let me think about involving another. I do have GM friends, but this might tax their sense of humor.
>
> If you do have other questions, I here.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Douglas & Virginia Smith, dsmithy18 at gmail, Lincoln Nebraska, ’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo"; Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371083 is a reply to message #364504] Thu, 23 February 2023 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Greg C. is currently offline  Greg C.   United States
Messages: 224
Registered: October 2019
Location: Knoxville, TN
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Matt:

I have a Dick Paterson distributor coming my way. I wanted to utilize your method for the gun site timing, and this would be a good time to do this while the distributor is out of the way.

I have a question. Did you just roll the crank to TDC (0 degrees), mark a tooth, and then count over four teeth for 10 degrees BTDC? I can't work out in my head without looking at the crank which direction Before and After would be on the flywheel.

Are the 0 mark and the 10 degree mark both visible in the mouse hole at the same time?

I'm thinking of machining an aluminum pointer, which would mount with two 8-32 stainless screws threaded into tapped holes in the trans bell housing. I would make the screw holes slotted, to allow for calibration. This pointer would drop down into the mouse hole as close to the teeth as possible and maintain a safe clearance.

When I put the new double roller timing chain in last year, I fabricated a piston stop and carefully worked the crank until I had an accurate TDC mark. The new harmonic balancer mark was off about 1-1/4 degrees. I installed a harmonic balancer timing tape with Zero at the correct place, then timed it as best I could with a timing light. I don't have an advance type light, so your modification would be a welcome feature. My distributor advance weights and pins were stuck, and after getting them loose, I discovered they were badly worn. I expect some improvement with Dick's distributor, provided I can time it accurately.
Thank you.


Greg Crawford KM4ZCR Knoxville, TN "Ruby Sue" 1977 Royale Rear Bath 403 Engine American Eagle Wheels Early Version Alex Sirum Quad bags
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371095 is a reply to message #371083] Sat, 25 February 2023 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Senior Member
Greg, I am going to put the responses in line with a =>
Greg C. wrote on Thu, 23 February 2023 18:03
Matt:
I have a Dick Paterson distributor coming my way. I wanted to utilize your method for the gun site timing, and this would be a good time to do this while the distributor is out of the way.
=> Good Idea
I have a question. Did you just roll the crank to TDC (0 degrees), mark a tooth, and then count over four teeth for 10 degrees BTDC? I can't work out in my head without looking at the crank which direction Before and After would be on the flywheel.
=> I marked 0, 10 & 20 while the engine was separate from the transmission. I had marked the tops of the teeth and they were hard to see, so I remarked on the flywheel edge.
Are the 0 mark and the 10 degree mark both visible in the mouse hole at the same time?
=> The hole I put in the bell housing (iirc) is 1.125" and only 3 teeth are visible.
I'm thinking of machining an aluminum pointer, which would mount with two 8-32 stainless screws threaded into tapped holes in the trans bell housing. I would make the screw holes slotted, to allow for calibration. This pointer would drop down into the mouse hole as close to the teeth as possible and maintain a safe clearance.
=>That much effort will not get you much, with the just the change from damper to flywheel the resolution is already about 5X better.

When I put the new double roller timing chain in last year, I fabricated a piston stop and carefully worked the crank until I had an accurate TDC mark. The new harmonic balancer mark was off about 1-1/4 degrees. I installed a harmonic balancer timing tape with Zero at the correct place, then timed it as best I could with a timing light. I don't have an advance type light, so your modification would be a welcome feature. My distributor advance weights and pins were stuck, and after getting them loose, I discovered they were badly worn. I expect some improvement with Dick's distributor, provided I can time it accurately.
Thank you.
Best of luck and let us know how it works out for you.
Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371096 is a reply to message #364504] Sat, 25 February 2023 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Greg C. is currently offline  Greg C.   United States
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Registered: October 2019
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Senior Member
Thanks Matt. I know you stated that the index mark was concealed by the vacuum advance in the picture. I believe you also stated that the index mark was on the block.
After I drill the hole, and get the engine to TDC, I could just scribe a mark on the bell housing in alignment to whatever tooth is best centered in the hole and mark it as TDC?

Sorry to sound so ignorant. I just wanted to know if my logic is correct.


Greg Crawford KM4ZCR Knoxville, TN "Ruby Sue" 1977 Royale Rear Bath 403 Engine American Eagle Wheels Early Version Alex Sirum Quad bags
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371097 is a reply to message #364504] Sat, 25 February 2023 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Greg C. is currently offline  Greg C.   United States
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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Senior Member
I forgot to mention my distributor arrived today from Springfield Ignition.

Greg Crawford KM4ZCR Knoxville, TN "Ruby Sue" 1977 Royale Rear Bath 403 Engine American Eagle Wheels Early Version Alex Sirum Quad bags
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371099 is a reply to message #371097] Sun, 26 February 2023 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Senior Member
Greg,

Our lights and broadband are back to I am finally answering.

Nothing you are saying sounds ignorant, but what few people realize it that the timing marks on any engine are substantially random.

When the engine was designed, someone said,"Let's put a set of timing marks here for assembly and diagnosis." If you have been around as many engines as I have, you would know that they can be anywhere. The only thing that does matter is that they are true to the crankshaft position.

So, what you are doing is entirely valid and since you did do a trammel to zero at one time, yours will be more accurate than most. That error that you found is pretty common actually.

Oh, "Trammel" is a big engine term for you piston stop or similar that are used to determine Top Center on engines. Just bar or block that is used for that same purpose.

I like the idea of a pointer, but I am not sure I would bother. Your resolution at the ring gear is going to be so much higher (like X5) what you have at the damper that the effort may make little improvement.

Let me know how this plays out for you.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371207 is a reply to message #364504] Wed, 08 March 2023 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Greg C. is currently offline  Greg C.   United States
Messages: 224
Registered: October 2019
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Senior Member
Thank you, Matt, for the reply. My plan was to turn the coach around and put the front end up on my ramps today so I could start work.
I have a PS hose leak, a valve cover leak, and a transmission temp sender to put in as well as the distributor, so I figured I would knock all those things out with the front end elevated.
Unfortunately, somehow, I produced a tear in my retina yesterday afternoon while working on my 1966 fiberglass runabout and had to have laser surgery this morning. I'm going to take it easy for a couple of days before I tackle the coach.
I will report back once the distributor is in.

Thanks again.



Greg Crawford KM4ZCR Knoxville, TN "Ruby Sue" 1977 Royale Rear Bath 403 Engine American Eagle Wheels Early Version Alex Sirum Quad bags
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371242 is a reply to message #364504] Tue, 28 March 2023 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Greg C. is currently offline  Greg C.   United States
Messages: 224
Registered: October 2019
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Senior Member
Matt:

I finally got back around to installing the new distributor and doing the gun sight timing hole. I drilled the hole with a hole saw that had grease liberally smeared on the interior to capture the cut out piece so it would not fall into the bell housing. Then I positioned the crank and marked the flywheel at TDC and at 10 degrees BTDC. As you stated, it's hard to see the rear face of the flywheel, but easy to see the teeth. I tried to cut a little hemisphere into the face of the flywheel with a cutter in my Dremel as a marker, but it was too hard. But the 10 degree BTDC tooth was right over a torque converter bracket, so I drilled a shallow 1/8" hole in the bracket to mark the 10 degree spot. These spots were also marked with orange paint. When I fired it up and used the timing light, my marks were no where in sight, dang it, but it turned out I was one tooth off on the distributor gear. When that was remedied, everything works great. Now if the torque converter is removed, it will have to go back in the same position for this to continue to work. I've never been able to time the engine on the front, and this takes all the guessing out of it. Thanks again for publishing your photos and write up on this.


Greg Crawford KM4ZCR Knoxville, TN "Ruby Sue" 1977 Royale Rear Bath 403 Engine American Eagle Wheels Early Version Alex Sirum Quad bags
Re: New and more accessible timing marks [message #371278 is a reply to message #371242] Thu, 13 April 2023 17:15 Go to previous message
dsmithy is currently offline  dsmithy   United States
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
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Senior Member
Well done Greg! Pictures?

Douglas & Virginia Smith, dsmithy18 at gmail, Lincoln Nebraska, ’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo"; Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
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